Dartmouth College student not allowed to protect herself from stalker

[pastera]

Some experts are dumber than a bag of hammers.

Hammers have a use, stop insulting hard working tool

 

[drgrant]

She's just a little retarded. She could have carried there, told nobody, and gone to school. (We're talking NH here, where there is no 269-10J). If she would have had to shoot the meathead, getting kicked out would be the least of her problems.

-Mike

 

[noddaduma]

Well I see the percentage of victim blaming posts has gone down from past similar posts. Step in the right direction, NES!



Anybody on the forum able to get some good practical advice to the girl?

 

[92G]

i find it irritating how focused everyone is on this stalker character. who gives a shit if she's being stalked....her 2A rights are not contingent on proving to the world that she indeed has a stalker. that is garbage.....it's like saying my 1st amendment rights only apply if I can prove that I'm sufficiently educated to speak proper english? bogus.

 

[tuna]

First off, stop asking questions. Now that she's asked and been told no, she knows she's stuck.

I've always advised cars that break down all the time, and need to be fixed with a crescent wrench. No laws against crescent wrenches, just in case it is accidently left in your back pocket after fixing the whatchamacalit. Just sayin....

 

[JackOfAllTrades]

Dicta from the SJC concludes that ammo is banned under 269-10j.

I figured there was something like that out there.

I guess the new legal loophole question becomes one of whether or not OC spray was verboten under 269-10j because it was "ammunition" or because it was a "dangerous weapon". If OC spray was verboten because it was "ammunition", then in theory the changes in S.2284 would make 269-10j not apply... unless it now falls under the "dangerous weapon" category.

Unfortunately, I think someone has to get jammed up on this and argue it in court to get an answer.

My guess is that since it is no longer "ammunition", but a "self defense spray" with all the same conditions and prohibitions as ammunition, that it must be just as dangerous as ammunition and thus still considered ammunition. That sounds about right, doesn't it?

 

[Arlo39]

Nope:

No student may possess or use a firearm, archery equipment, hunting knife or weapons of any type, and corresponding supplies, in Hanover or its environs without a registration receipt for weapon storage, issued by the College Proctor, Department of Safety and Security. Firearms, including rifles, shotguns, air guns, and gas-powered guns, and all ammunition or hand-loading equipment and supplies for same, must be stored in the gun room at the Department of Safety and Security. This applies to students living on or off-campus. Weapons of any type, and corresponding supplies, are not allowed in any College building or in any student residence in Hanover.

The college owns a lot of off campus housing, pays a lot of taxes to the town, and talls the town what to do.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I figured there was something like that out there.

I guess the new legal loophole question becomes one of whether or not OC spray was verboten under 269-10j because it was "ammunition" or because it was a "dangerous weapon". If OC spray was verboten because it was "ammunition", then in theory the changes in S.2284 would make 269-10j not apply... unless it now falls under the "dangerous weapon" category.

Unfortunately, I think someone has to get jammed up on this and argue it in court to get an answer.

My guess is that since it is no longer "ammunition", but a "self defense spray" with all the same conditions and prohibitions as ammunition, that it must be just as dangerous as ammunition and thus still considered ammunition. That sounds about right, doesn't it?

OK, let's realize that this story is about NH and not MA (someone asked about MA law so we went off on that tangent).

------------------

Bringing it back to NH laws/regs/rules:

- According to a good friend who is very knowledgeable about NH laws, colleges are NOT off-limits for firearms . . . there is no RSA that prohibits them. [Elementary/Secondary schools are prohibited by law.]
- Private businesses are NOT bound by Constitutional Law - we have NO RIGHTS here on NES, we are guests. Similarly, colleges can make their own rules and accord disciplinary action as they wish. Thus, students, staff and faculty must abide by their rules or face consequences such as expulsion, firing, etc.
- Given that fact, although guns are legal on college campuses in NH, schools are free to ban them and punish those they have control over (students, staff and faculty) that ignore those rules.

So this poor young lady can't be jailed for possession on campus, she certainly can be expelled and ordered never to trespass on their property again.

 

[Prepper]

Nope:

No student may possess or use a firearm, archery equipment, hunting knife or weapons of any type, and corresponding supplies, in Hanover or its environs without a registration receipt for weapon storage, issued by the College Proctor, Department of Safety and Security. Firearms, including rifles, shotguns, air guns, and gas-powered guns, and all ammunition or hand-loading equipment and supplies for same, must be stored in the gun room at the Department of Safety and Security. This applies to students living on or off-campus. Weapons of any type, and corresponding supplies, are not allowed in any College building or in any student residence in Hanover.

That is nucking futs.

Other than being banned, does this actually get enforced by law? (I just saw Len's last post..,. So I guess no law, just kicked off campus, etc)

 

[WatchCityCPA]

If the wave is good this year, you will likely see a change to RSA 159 telling the public universities and colleges in NH to "go screw" on the issue of restricting citizens with P&R licenses from being able to carry and thus defend themselves.

Dartmouth is private so they can still create a "gun free zone" if they want to continue to be dumb.

+1

No way to fix this through laws without infringing on more private freedoms. The only fix has to come through Dartmouth, and the administration has been extremely hostile to anybody who tried to talk to them in the last couple of decades... check this 2007 story about them permanently changing the balance of power by stacking the board to cancel out the influence of the alumni :

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/09/10/dartmouth_trustees_add_nonalumni_board_seats/

Dartmouth trustees add nonalumni board seats
By Steven H. Bagley and Peter Schworm, Globe Staff | September 10, 2007


The Dartmouth College board of trustees has expanded its membership without adding alumni seats, a move former students have charged was designed to dilute the influence of graduates on the powerful panel.


The decision to grow from 18 to 26, announced late Saturday after a weekend conference on the governance of the college, followed weeks of debate about the board's size, makeup, and structure.


The 18 seats had been held by the college president, the governor of New Hampshire, eight trustees chosen by the board, and eight chosen by alumni. Now 16 trustees will be chosen by the board, a move that a group of alumni, the Committee to Save Dartmouth, adamantly opposed.


Andres Morton Zimmerman, the spokesman for the committee, did not return calls for comment. But the group has publicly condemned proposed changes.


The committee escalated its battle for alumni representation late last month by taking out ads in The New York Times and Wall Street Journal contending that the college's leaders are trying to stifle alumni.


"Dartmouth's loyal daughters and sons may be denied any role in the governance of their college," warned The New York Times advertisement. The alumni "must not be silenced."


Ed Haldeman, chairman of the board of trustees, said yesterday that alumni are not being silenced: They will have the same voting power as they did before the number of trustees appointed by the board - charter trustees - was doubled.


"We will continue to have eight trustees that are elected by the entire alumni body, and there will be the same opportunity for petition candidates as there has been," he said.

The alumni fought hard and lost - there is no short term solution to any Dartmouth problem... the board is deeply entrenched and will not listen.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

It's the same trick I've seen start-ups pull (but with shares) when they wanted to fire someone and dilute his shares, or have an additional round of venture funding that does not dilute the founder's stock.

 

[Mike S]

Why is this even a story?

She's complaining about the school not letting her carry when she can't legally carry anyways as she's not yet 21 years old.

If she has a handgun she should STFU and carry. Judged by 12 or carried by 6, it's her call.

 

[WatchCityCPA]

Why is this even a story?

She's complaining about the school not letting her carry when she can't legally carry anyways as she's not yet 21 years old.

If she has a handgun she should STFU and carry. Judged by 12 or carried by 6, it's her call.

Can you please show me what law states she cannot carry in NH because she is under 21?

 

[Mike S]

It's federal, handguns no carry legally until 21. Unless she wants to carry a long gun, did I miss that bit?

 

[WatchCityCPA]

It's federal, handguns no carry legally until 21. Unless she wants to carry a long gun, did I miss that bit?

What federal law regulates concealed carry age?

We are talking concealed handgun carry.

 

[drgrant]

It's federal, handguns no carry legally until 21.

Not true. Feds only regulate FFL sales of handguns, sale of handgun ammunition by dealers, etc- and there's also some BS about limitations regarding supplying a handgun to a minor (eg under 18) but that doesn't apply here. There are several states (NH, VT among them) where under 21 carry is definitely legal.

-Mike

 

[Mike S]

you're right, I was mixing up carry and purchase

 

[Rob Boudrie]

A more relevant story is Datrmouth's claim that "off campus" students are not allowed to have guns in their residence.

The real question is "how far does this go?". Does Dartmouth claim juristiction during academic recesses for off campus students, or for local students living at their parent's residence? Will Dartmouth provide security for off campus students denied self defense, or escorts to/from these private residences?

 

[atilla]

“On one hand, I understand her fears, but I don’t believe that any student should have a gun. Data shows that those who own a gun for protection, that they [the guns] are more likely to be used on themselves or a loved one.

[citation needed]

 

[Bonesinium]

Bringing it back to NH laws/regs/rules:

- According to a good friend who is very knowledgeable about NH laws, colleges are NOT off-limits for firearms . . . there is no RSA that prohibits them. [Elementary/Secondary schools are prohibited by law.

Not state law, only federal law. Even then, if you have a P&R, it could questionably (very questionably) be legal. But NH state law does NOT prohibit carry anywhere beside courts (as defined in the RSA).

Why is this even a story?

She's complaining about the school not letting her carry when she can't legally carry anyways as she's not yet 21 years old.

You do not need to be 21 in order to carry a handgun in NH.

Oops, seems this was already sorted out.

 

[exo]

[citation needed]

I don't know where that line of fresh, steaming bullcrap came from, but antis routinely trot it out as though it were settled fact.

 

[Len-2A Training]

A more relevant story is Datrmouth's claim that "off campus" students are not allowed to have guns in their residence.

The real question is "how far does this go?". Does Dartmouth claim juristiction during academic recesses for off campus students, or for local students living at their parent's residence? Will Dartmouth provide security for off campus students denied self defense, or escorts to/from these private residences?

Rob, as a private entity, the college can require their students to wear/do whatever they want (even if living off campus) and expel them if they disobey. It's basically contract law. We don't like it but it is lawful.

 

[WatchCityCPA]

Rob, as a private entity, the college can require their students to wear/do whatever they want (even if living off campus) and expel them if they disobey. It's basically contract law. We don't like it but it is lawful.

And colleges only disclose all that AFTER the decision is made - I will keep that in mind when my daughters start looking for college.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Rob, as a private entity, the college can require their students to wear/do whatever they want (even if living off campus) and expel them if they disobey. It's basically contract law. We don't like it but it is lawful.

The question is really one of how far is the reach, and how far does the school claim this extends?

 

[drgrant]

Rob, as a private entity, the college can require their students to wear/do whatever they want (even if living off campus) and expel them if they disobey. It's basically contract law. We don't like it but it is lawful.

Well, it'll be "lawful" until someone beats the snot out of them in court over it, at least.... of course a big problem with this is you'd need an exceptionally savvy lawyer and a plaintiff who suffered serious harm as a result of the policy, and you'd have to do a good job of directly linking that policy with the harm that was caused to the student.

-Mike

 

[bostonasphalt2]

It's worse for Ms Woolrich than just not being able to carry on school property. Dartmouth College policy prohibits students from having any gun in the town of Hanover where the school is located unless it is stored in the security office.

If she carried, she'd be better armed than Dartmouth's security officers who do not.

JFC, damn am I gladI didn't get into the Tuck School of Business. I was halfway to having a place to buy lined up just in case I got in. Glad that didn't happen!

 

[bostonasphalt2]

A more relevant story is Datrmouth's claim that "off campus" students are not allowed to have guns in their residence.

The real question is "how far does this go?". Does Dartmouth claim juristiction during academic recesses for off campus students, or for local students living at their parent's residence? Will Dartmouth provide security for off campus students denied self defense, or escorts to/from these private residences?

So, if I was accepted at Tuck, lets say, and my wife and I moved to Hanover. I wouldn't be allowed to have guns per their rules, but what about my wife? I really wonder here, because at that point they are limiting the right of someone who isn't bound contractually to their rules....

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Well, it'll be "lawful" until someone beats the snot out of them in court over it, at least.... of course a big problem with this is you'd need an exceptionally savvy lawyer and a plaintiff who suffered serious harm as a result of the policy, and you'd have to do a good job of directly linking that policy with the harm that was caused to the student.

-Mike

It gets trickier when the school "suspects" someone of lawful campus activity and demands to search their apartment. It would be interesting to see if a court would accept a schools declaration that "agreeing to abide by school rules" implied consent to a search of off campus housing.

When I was in college, someone I knew was asked to allow campus security search his apartment. He told the campus investigator "sure, as long as we go to your place first and I can search it for any illegal items". That ended the issue.

 

[PaulR]

I was reading a lot of the comments elsewhere on this, coming from a nationwide audience, and it was very pleasing to see the overwhelming majority saying basically "concealed is concealed, she should just carry and not tell anyone"

 

[KBCraig]

Ya, but I'd guess one is a firearms violation and the other is a misdemeanor trespass or school discipline. Just sayin'

"School discipline" means being on the hook for the $65k+ that Dartmouth charges per year, even after being expelled. And good luck getting into any equivalent school, or even a second tier state university, after being kicked out of the Ivy League over a weapons charge.

Paying back that student loan while you can't even go to school has got to be a bitter pill...