CO's Considered LEO's?

[Big Daddy 45acp]

Once and a while, the pissing contest goes the other way. I distinctly remember a "disturbance" at the old Lawrence Jail and the MSP showed up to back us up. As one trooper approached the gate, I asked him to lock up his weapon. He stated "Troopers don't give up their guns!" I told him "No guns in my jail! So I guess no Troopers either!" Boy was he pissed when the ranking Trooper on scene told him to lock his gun up in his cruiser.

During this same incident, a Lawrence Officer somehow got in with his weapon. I pulled him aside and discreetly told him that he may want to secure his weapon. He had that "OH SHIT" look on his face, apologized and left the cell block to secure it.

Unfortunately, a lot of cops do look down on COs. They call them wannabes, rent a cops, etc. But ask them if they couldn't be a cop, would they do the job? "NO F*****G WAY!" is the answer you would most likely get.

On the other hand, some of the best cops I have ever known, were COs before they hit the streets.

 

[KBCraig]

On the other hand, some of the best cops I have ever known, were COs before they hit the streets.

Conversely, some of the worst COs I've ever known were cops who couldn't lose the street attitude.

Street cops do tend to get big-eyed at the thought of having nothing but a Motorola and a Maglite while being outnumbered 100:1 or more. The best COs tend to have backgrounds in low-level sales, or store level management in fast food. Why? Because you have to be able to talk to people who hate you, hate who you work for, don't want to be having this conversation, and yet you still manage to get the to do what you want, without using force.

People sometimes tell me, "Oh, that must get exciting!" God, I hope not! If this job gets exciting, it means someone screwed up. A fully successful shift is one where absolutely nothing noteworthy happens.

 

[In God We Trust]

FWIW, the only place I seem to run into interagency disputes about whose badge is bigger is on internet forums. Yeah, you see it occasionally on the road, but no where near the intensity as when guys are sitting behind their computer screens.

The only time I have seen it get nasty is when the state police are involved. With townies it rarely goes beyond friendly ball busting.

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[hankster]

Conversely, some of the worst COs I've ever known were cops who couldn't lose the street attitude.

Street cops do tend to get big-eyed at the thought of having nothing but a Motorola and a Maglite while being outnumbered 100:1 or more. The best COs tend to have backgrounds in low-level sales, or store level management in fast food. Why? Because you have to be able to talk to people who hate you, hate who you work for, don't want to be having this conversation, and yet you still manage to get the to do what you want, without using force.

People sometimes tell me, "Oh, that must get exciting!" God, I hope not! If this job gets exciting, it means someone screwed up. A fully successful shift is one where absolutely nothing noteworthy happens.

+ 1 , communication is key .

 

[KH56010]

I understand what and were you are coming from. I cannot imagine what its like inside a jail. I have the upmost respect for the people that work in them.

And I was referring to the satisfaction of LEOSA when addressing wether or not state/county CO's were considered LEOS.

Here's a quick text for the qualifiers for LEOSA.

Briefly, in order for a retired police officer to carry a concealed weapon in accordance with the provisions of the LEOSA, they must:

1. Have been regularly employed as a law enforcement officer for an aggregate of 10 or more years before honorably separating from service either due to retirement or a service connected disability;

2. Separation may not be for mental instability;

3. Had statutory power of arrest and was engaged in or supervised the prevention, detection, investigation or prosecution of, or incarceration of any person for violation of law.

I can't find any other qualifiers that would be needed other than the ones bolded (aside from the ID and training certificate) I also don't know what powers the county CO's have, I do know that the State CO's Have statutory powers of arrest granted to us by the State Police. They even handed out sheets for LEOSA on the last day of the academy and clearly said "This applies to you because of the certificate from the State Police"

 

[Len-2A Training]

Here's a quick text for the qualifiers for LEOSA.

Briefly, in order for a retired police officer to carry a concealed weapon in accordance with the provisions of the LEOSA, they must:

1. Have been regularly employed as a law enforcement officer for an aggregate of 10 or more years before honorably separating from service either due to retirement or a service connected disability;

2. Separation may not be for mental instability;

3. Had statutory power of arrest and was engaged in or supervised the prevention, detection, investigation or prosecution of, or incarceration of any person for violation of law.

I can't find any other qualifiers that would be needed other than the ones bolded (aside from the ID and training certificate) I also don't know what powers the county CO's have, I do know that the State CO's Have statutory powers of arrest granted to us by the State Police. They even handed out sheets for LEOSA on the last day of the academy and clearly said "This applies to you because of the certificate from the State Police"

I suggest reading the MA CMR. It disagrees with a lot of the above. It was specifically written to EXCLUDE lots of legitimate LEOs from being LEOSA eligible . . . and it was never updated to comply with the 2010 amendments to the Fed Law.

 

[Bolio]

Here's a quick text for the qualifiers for LEOSA.

Briefly, in order for a retired police officer to carry a concealed weapon in accordance with the provisions of the LEOSA, they must:

1. Have been regularly employed as a law enforcement officer for an aggregate of 10 or more years before honorably separating from service either due to retirement or a service connected disability;

2. Separation may not be for mental instability;

3. Had statutory power of arrest and was engaged in or supervised the prevention, detection, investigation or prosecution of, or incarceration of any person for violation of law.

I can't find any other qualifiers that would be needed other than the ones bolded (aside from the ID and training certificate) I also don't know what powers the county CO's have, I do know that the State CO's Have statutory powers of arrest granted to us by the State Police. They even handed out sheets for LEOSA on the last day of the academy and clearly said "This applies to you because of the certificate from the State Police"

I'm not doubting you, but there are idiots at the Shirley Academy. They might have handed you the LEOSA sheets but I doubt the DOC will go to bat for you.

 

[KH56010]

I completely agree that MA doesn't support the LEOSA privilidges and I also agree that the Shirley academy didn't have the brightest instructors (if anyone in the DOC should be considered a wanna-a-bee or a rent-a-cop it's them. The head instructor would even brag about pulling people over in his DOC cruiser) However, LEOSA is a federal mandate. It's not contigent on MA playing ball or the DOC going to bat. I have my State Police certificate which gives me statutory powers of arrest and I engage in and supervise the incarceration of persons who are there for violations of the law. If it should ever become an issue, my lawyer will go to bat and unless the LEOSA wording changes, it should be an open and shut case.

I will never not exercise a right or a privilidge because the government won't support me. I've been to court before because of the misuse of power by the government and I've won before. Not exercising my LEOSA privilidge, even though I meet the criteria because, of fear of prosecution is the same as all of the people that say "MA is a lost cause, just move to NH" Well, sheeple are moving to NH too, it will never stop if you run or hide.

 

[Bolio]

I understand where you are coming from.

Your Powers of Arrest might sound sexy and all, but you will go through your whole career without making an arrest. The DOC discourage any actual arrest on State Property by an employee, including IPS, OIS, or regular Screws. They call the MSP for any arrest.

I don't recommend any DOC Screw carrying across state lines because they think LEOSA covers them, unless they are on duty.

 

[Kisspik002]

I'm a county CO and in my opinion it would not be worth it to carry under leosa unless you are a cop. If you ever God forbid had to use your weapon out of state and your leosa qualifications were unclear that would be very bad. I agree that CO's should be included but I wouldn't want to be the guinea pig that the state gov't goes after. There are to many people in this state including our AG who would love to nail any pro-gun, LEOs to the wall. Best bet is to get a Utah or Florida Out of state license. Again just my opinion. I hope some day all LEOs will fall under leosa. Im not speaking for the DOC or other sheriffs department that are deputized but when I asked at my department I was told that the issue of powers of arrest could be questionable for a non deputized CO along with our IDs not meeting the leosa standards

 

[appraiser]

I think a lot of the risk would be if you got jammed up out of state and someone from the department that was questioning your having a gun and claiming LEOSA as your "permit to carry" called back to your Department here in MA and asked to talk to the person in charge to verify your credentials, and the person on this end says the wrong thing.

For those of you that are CO's ( and I thank you for your service) it would seem to me that it would hinge on your ability to carry a gun "on the job". If you can't be armed on the job,, you can't claim LEOSA and hope it sticks.

I think these are the criteria you must be:
an employee of a governmental agency,

be authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law,

have statutory powers of arrest,

be authorized by the agency to carry a firearm, (editorial comment: you may not be carrying in your daily activity but if it is part of your job description or requirements you have to qualify, hold a LTC, etc., then that should count that you are authorized IMHO)

not be the subject of any disciplinary action by the agency (which could result in suspension or loss of police powers),

and meet standards, if any, established by the agency which require the employee to regularly qualify in the use of a firearm.

 

[Bolio]

CO's do have to qualify each year.

 

[Deleted member 12999]

Being on the job, I have the utmost respect for my brothers and sisters in the CJ system that walk the tiers. It take big balls to do that job.

As for HR 218 analysis, I think that Glockaholic is spot on, but I'm 4 captain and cokes deep.

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[KBCraig]

Your Powers of Arrest might sound sexy and all, but you will go through your whole career without making an arrest. The DOC discourage any actual arrest on State Property by an employee, including IPS, OIS, or regular Screws. They call the MSP for any arrest.

That has nothing to do with whether or not one is qualified under LEOSA.

If there is a statute that says employees of your agency may make arrests, but only for tiddling red winks instead of yellow on the fifth Tuesday of February, then you have statutory power of arrest. Period.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I think a lot of the risk would be if you got jammed up out of state and someone from the department that was questioning your having a gun and claiming LEOSA as your "permit to carry" called back to your Department here in MA and asked to talk to the person in charge to verify your credentials, and the person on this end says the wrong thing.

And this is a big problem. I can see a response of "no" to the question if called about someone's LEOSA status. If someone isn't a "conventional cop" that everyone everywhere recognizes as such (e.g. ACO, Harbormaster, CO, Deputy Sheriff, Constable, Special/Auxiliary PO, etc.), many of the bureaucrats will deny that they are LEOSA qualified. IDs are another issue, some aren't issued IDs or ones that would be LEOSA compliant and nothing in MA Regs requires issuance of any ID!

 

[Kisspik002]

I just think for a CO (not deputized) or state DOC if you don't have a cut and clear ok from your department and your not 100% clear on if you qualify then it's just not worth it.

 

[OfficerObie59]

Unfortunately, a lot of cops do look down on COs. They call them wannabes, rent a cops, etc. But ask them if they couldn't be a cop, would they do the job? "NO F*****G WAY!" is the answer you would most likely get.

On the other hand, some of the best cops I have ever known, were COs before they hit the streets.

Agreed. It's two different jobs, and the job of a CO is much more thankless. No one sees what you do. You're locked in jail with some dangerous mofos. And CO's always seem to get the shaft compared to police agencies come contract time.

My father-in-law is a career LT with the DOC. I tell him all the time my balls aren't big enough to do his job. His response is always "Well, at least I know who the bad guys are." I tell him sure, that's true, but I'd have no faith in humanity if that were the case for me.

The last paragraph couldn't be more true. Something about having to talk a guy down with nothing but your words until your back up shows up trains you on how to speak to people in a way that's much more effective than any force option.

 

[OfficerObie59]

I think a lot of the risk would be if you got jammed up out of state and someone from the department that was questioning your having a gun and claiming LEOSA as your "permit to carry" called back to your Department here in MA and asked to talk to the person in charge to verify your credentials, and the person on this end says the wrong thing.

For those of you that are CO's ( and I thank you for your service) it would seem to me that it would hinge on your ability to carry a gun "on the job". If you can't be armed on the job,, you can't claim LEOSA and hope it sticks.

I think these are the criteria you must be:
an employee of a governmental agency,

be authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law,

have statutory powers of arrest,

be authorized by the agency to carry a firearm, (editorial comment: you may not be carrying in your daily activity but if it is part of your job description or requirements you have to qualify, hold a LTC, etc., then that should count that you are authorized IMHO)

not be the subject of any disciplinary action by the agency (which could result in suspension or loss of police powers),

and meet standards, if any, established by the agency which require the employee to regularly qualify in the use of a firearm.

My question has always been do the arrest powers have to be constant? Many DOC CO's are certified as Special State Police Officers so they have police powers while doing transports. IIRC, a few years back a couple CO's were given an award for pulling over a shitfaced driver while returning from a transport. The problem is these powers are limited to the circumstance of transport. Is that enough to satisfy bullet #3?

No one seems to know. As far as I'm concerned, there should be a CO provision to LEOSA. What little awkward or uncomfortable issues I've run into out and about (meeting eyes with a past arrest at Home Depot) pales in comparison to some of the crazy shit my father-in-law has run into off-duty (like being recognized and called out by gang members at a subway station).

 

[n1oty]

My question has always been do the arrest powers have to be constant? Many DOC CO's are certified as Special State Police Officers so they have police powers while doing transports. IIRC, a few years back a couple CO's were given an award for pulling over a shitfaced driver while returning from a transport. The problem is these powers are limited to the circumstance of transport. Is that enough to satisfy bullet #3?

No one seems to know. As far as I'm concerned, there should be a CO provision to LEOSA. What little awkward or uncomfortable issues I've run into out and about (meeting eyes with a past arrest at Home Depot) pales in comparison to some of the crazy shit my father-in-law has run into off-duty (like being recognized and called out by gang members at a subway station).

This. The seven years I spent working within the walls were undoubtedly the hardest job I ever endured. My hat is off to your FIL. We used to refer to it as doing time on the installment plan.

 

[delgrifith]

The only time I have seen it get nasty is when the state police are involved. With townies it rarely goes beyond friendly ball busting.

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And I have seen a few Lt.'s from town departments get pretty nasty with road Troopers about being in "their town". It goes both ways, and its almost always boils down to money.

 

[appraiser]

As far as I'm concerned, there should be a CO provision to LEOSA. What little awkward or uncomfortable issues I've run into out and about (meeting eyes with a past arrest at Home Depot) pales in comparison to some of the crazy shit my father-in-law has run into off-duty (like being recognized and called out by gang members at a subway station).

And here is yet another problem with the law. Now those of you that read my posts know I have philosophical differences with the Police and the direction policing in general is taking, and I also don't like having two classes of citizens, one that has 2A rights across the country and the rest of us, BUT .....

If the purpose of LEOSA is to protect LEO's off duty if they should run into someone they have interacted with while "on the job", then it needs to cover Corrections Officers.

 

[wmass]

If the purpose of LEOSA is to protect LEO's off duty if they should run into someone they have interacted with while "on the job", then it needs to cover Corrections Officers.

It extends past that though. As a towny, a staty, or a C.O. what are the chances you will run into to a previous arrest or incarceration across state line or half way across the country? The "arresting powers" are essential in case you see something go down and have to "go to work." That whole first responder crap. C.O.'s here in w-mass (those are whom I am familiar with) get left out dry even with in our state. Hampden CO, for instance, does not issue any form of LTC for it's officers. While on the job they can carry under the badge... that is it. I cannot tell you how many times I have been followed through the Holyoke mall by "former house guests." Luckily my local chief gave me a Class A. He actually understood the dangers of the profession.

 

[Kisspik002]

It extends past that though. As a towny, a staty, or a C.O. what are the chances you will run into to a previous arrest or incarceration across state line or half way across the country? The "arresting powers" are essential in case you see something go down and have to "go to work." That whole first responder crap. C.O.'s here in w-mass (those are whom I am familiar with) get left out dry even with in our state. Hampden CO, for instance, does not issue any form of LTC for it's officers. While on the job they can carry under the badge... that is it. I cannot tell you how many times I have been followed through the Holyoke mall by "former house guests." Luckily my local chief gave me a Class A. He actually understood the dangers of the profession.

I have run into many many former cons in NH, Maine, RI, Florida, and Virginia as well as MA whether in Boston or the cape. I would rather be allowed to carry all the time and never use it then not carry at all and have to fight off a shitbag who wants to hurt me, my wife, my kids. As for arrest powers outside of my home state where i have my LTC I could careless about arresting anyone , just defending my family. So to sum it up, CO's absolutely should be included in LEOSA, and as of this posting the wording and law I believe would hurt you more than help you if you used or got caught with your weapon out of state. I will not risk it. Unless your sheriff, commissioner, warden, who ever is the boss says the department will back you 100% then again I believe it's not worth it for a CO. SSPO And deputies have a better chance and can fulfill the requirements but would there department back them, that's the question.

 

[OfficerObie59]

It extends past that though. As a towny, a staty, or a C.O. what are the chances you will run into to a previous arrest or incarceration across state line or half way across the country?

Just last month, an officer I know who works for a South Shore department locked eyes with a guy he locked up 12 years earlier while at the baggage claim at the Denver airport. It happens.

That's not to say nationwide concealed carry shouldn't apply to everyone, however.

 

[Deleted member 22390]

I work for a sheriffs department, and usually the state police hate us, and alot of other departments hate us to because we get more grants from the state so we have alot of nice equipment. But whenever they call for mutual aid we always let them use it. so i dont know why they hate us

 

[Rob Boudrie]

That's not to say nationwide concealed carry shouldn't apply to everyone, however.

One of the problems of creating "special classes of people" is that the members of those special classes no longer have skin in the game, and it becomes harder to change the rules for everyone else. It's easy to lobby against "shall issue" if you are personally covered by some special exemption, or to consider the NYC system "reasonable" if you are at the very top of the food chain and qualify for an NYC "full carry" permit.

Just imagine Bloomberg's attitude towards guns if he (a) did not get police protection, and (b) those he hired to protect himself personally did not have any "special access" to carry permits or statutory carry authority.

 

[appraiser]

I work for a sheriffs department, and usually the state police hate us, and alot of other departments hate us to because we get more grants from the state so we have alot of nice equipment. But whenever they call for mutual aid we always let them use it. so i dont know why they hate us

Middlesex?

A lot of local departments had a problem with the vision of the previous Sheriff, he saw the agency as more than just the operator of jails, and got a lot of grants for equipment, some that were looked at with suspicion ( a boat!) and some that had real value to local departments such as the mobile firing range, and the command bus that has enough radio gear to make sure that when multiple departments respond to an incident that they could all hear and talk to each other on their radios.

Only in the Northeast are the county LEO's looked at with such disdain.

 

[Deleted member 22390]

lol yes I agree, they got rid of the boat, the new sheriff trimmed alot of stuff like that when he was appointed. hopefully one day we'll all be able to work together

 

[Kisspik002]

Unfortunately in MA sheriff depts or DOC will always be looked down on. Corrections and policing are 2 different but equal parts to LE in my opinion. I think that over the years county sheriff departments with politics and the "anybody" can be a deputy game has made a lot of local cops come to hate us. I agree that sheriffs department are currently more corrections based, but there is no reason that sheriffs dept can't do both corrections and policing like in every other state. In MA the best thing that could happen would be the state DOC takes over the jails, pay county COs state rate and let the sheriffs control the civil process office or expand sheriffs depts and start doing dual roles. Being properly trained of course.

 

[OfficerObie59]

Middlesex?

A lot of local departments had a problem with the vision of the previous Sheriff, he saw the agency as more than just the operator of jails, and got a lot of grants for equipment, some that were looked at with suspicion ( a boat!) and some that had real value to local departments such as the mobile firing range, and the command bus that has enough radio gear to make sure that when multiple departments respond to an incident that they could all hear and talk to each other on their radios.

Only in the Northeast are the county LEO's looked at with such disdain.

And only in the Northeast do some states have no unincoprated territory.

IMO, the grant money is largely a result of DOJ not realizing that Sheriffs Department's in MA serve generally a support role. And the reason is simple--we have no unincorporated territory in MA. Same with CT and RI. While NH and VT have no unicorporated territory, some is so large and/or lacks population that having a Sheriffs Deparment may make sense (ex. Carroll County, etc.). But at this point, I don't see why Sheriff's Department's in MA (sans the lack of political will and the fact the state constitution would have to be amended) can't be rolled entirely into the state or local systems in order to cut out the overhead and SD administration. Roll the jails into the MA DOC and spit the Sheriff's assets between the local PD's, LEC's, and MSP.

To be clear, very few police officers "look down" on deputies who are CO's. The ones that do are dickheads anyways. When "looking down" does happen, its generally it's only the sheriffs on the outside of the jail that are looked at that way. A lot of it comes from the blatant nepotism that is/was pervasive in some SD's around the state, others from lack of any appointment and training standards. For the most part, those days are long gone, but pockets of that stuff still exists.

And some of it is simply jealousy, albeit sometimes well-founded. A few years ago, some cities where police officers who have the required 21-week, 800-hour academy were laid off, the local sheriffs seemed all to willing to help back fill with full time sheriffs deputies who in some instances had only the 120 hour permanant intermittent course. Same thing when it comes to equipment. It's a little irritating to cops in some cities have the floorboards rotting out in their cruisers answering back-to-back 911 calls all shift when they see a shiny new Sheriff CVPI bought with federal grant money driving by with no primary LE mission.

And with all that said, if I'm rolling around with some nutbag hopped up on bath salts, I don't care what color your cruiser is or what shape your badge is. I'm lucky to work alongside a squared-away SD that has good internal standards and tends to police itself. However, not all SD's in the commonwealth are like that. And until they are, they will continue to be some shunning by state and local LEO's.