Mass LEO's 2nd A feelings

[Usmc1345]

Please tell me I'm not the only mass Leo that is tired of fighting with other cops. I feel it happens once a week. I get into arguments because the majority of these men think its ok how this state deals with firearms. I am a firm believer that this state stomps on people's rights. I'm so done with hearing "we can't have wackos have guns ". I agree but what we do to our average citizen in this state when they try to legally obtain a firearm is insane. Well I just had to get that off my chest sorry for the rant.

 

[GPP]

Rant away. In my experience, I've found the majority of cops aren't " gun" guys. They're the ones who are clueless on the gun laws, and call me or another " gun" guy to put down a deer or some other varmint because they don't want to have to shoot an animal. Not terribly confidence inspiring.

I get into at least 3 or 4 arguments a week with some of the nimbys I work with on this very subject.

This state absolutely stomps on the rights of its residents. It's total BS. Then various chiefs feel it's their job to make it worse, and create more flaming hoops to jump thru to obtain an LTC. Its all about ****ing liability, not the 2A.

 

[Gooman24]

Please tell me I'm not the only mass Leo that is tired of fighting with other cops. I feel it happens once a week. I get into arguments because the majority of these men think its ok how this state deals with firearms. I am a firm believer that this state stomps on people's rights. I'm so done with hearing "we can't have wackos have guns ". I agree but what we do to our average citizen in this state when they try to legally obtain a firearm is insane. Well I just had to get that off my chest sorry for the rant.

Who gets to define wackos?

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[In God We Trust]

Most of the ones I know are rabidly pro 2A. A couple are indifferent but not really anti.

 

[ochmude]

Most of the ones I know are rabidly pro 2A. A couple are indifferent but not really anti.

That's how it is at my station. I know of exactly one LEO at my station that's actually anti. Ironically, he's the only other person on my shift besides myself who's from MA. I wish I could say the same for all my coworkers' feelings towards the 4A, though.

 

[xtry51]

I think in MA you'll find yourself in the minority based solely on decades of conditioning under your current law structure.

People's fear of an object is directly related to the volume of their experience with it. Example, when we have OC gatherings in Concord I can park my car and walk down the road a few blocks with my rifle slung (loaded) and people don't freak the **** out.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Rant away. In my experience, I've found the majority of cops aren't " gun" guys. They're the ones who are clueless on the gun laws, and call me or another " gun" guy to put down a deer or some other varmint because they don't want to have to shoot an animal. Not terribly confidence inspiring.

I get into at least 3 or 4 arguments a week with some of the nimbys I work with on this very subject.

This state absolutely stomps on the rights of its residents. It's total BS. Then various chiefs feel it's their job to make it worse, and create more flaming hoops to jump thru to obtain an LTC. Its all about ****ing liability, not the 2A.

The sad thing is that MGL protects the chief/LO from any liability as long as they follow the law in issuance of LTCs/FIDs. Convincing them of that is much like spitting in the wind. MCOPA does a great job of terrorizing their minions about "liability"!

Agreed, most cops aren't gun guys, but when I say that it does NOT mean they are anti, they are just ignorant of the laws and will go along with what they are told to do without questioning it.

There is a saying on many LE forums across the US that in order to be appointed chief, you first have to undergo a lobotomy. I concur!

 

[bfm]

http://www.wbur.org/2014/03/04/mass-gun-permit-rules-vary

 

[GPP]

The sad thing is that MGL protects the chief/LO from any liability as long as they follow the law in issuance of LTCs/FIDs. Convincing them of that is much like spitting in the wind. MCOPA does a great job of terrorizing their minions about "liability"!

Agreed, most cops aren't gun guys, but when I say that it does NOT mean they are anti, they are just ignorant of the laws and will go along with what they are told to do without questioning it.

There is a saying on many LE forums across the US that in order to be appointed chief, you first have to undergo a lobotomy. I concur!

Holy moly is that accurate ( the lobotomy comment)! My chief is one of my closest friends, I was his FTO 23 years ago. I listened to him say " dam, if I was chief, I'd fix this, and never do that etc" countless times. Now that he's chief, his outlook has changed, and I'd say some because he's matured, but mostly because of friggin liability. His "training wheels" mentality of issuing LTC-B only for the first year drives me absolutely bat shit crazy.

 

[delgrifith]

Quite a few of the guys are pro 2A but we all know that 1 jerk who will jam someone up just because. Co-worker of mine nailed a guy for carrying with a Target and hunting only Class A. This isn't a third hand story, I saw the paperwork myself. I've been trying to catch up with him to ask him why he did it, but I already sadly know the reason.

 

[Lank]

I am happy to read that some LEO's in MA are pro/tolerant of RKBA. As a youth I remember the local police in NH coming down to say hi at the sand pit. They would make sure we werent doing anything stupid, and were very friendly. This was in 1991.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

Holy moly is that accurate ( the lobotomy comment)! My chief is one of my closest friends, I was his FTO 23 years ago. I listened to him say " dam, if I was chief, I'd fix this, and never do that etc" countless times. Now that he's chief, his outlook has changed, and I'd say some because he's matured, but mostly because of friggin liability. His "training wheels" mentality of issuing LTC-B only for the first year drives me absolutely bat shit crazy.

one day this will never happen. the issuing should always be LTC-A no restrictions PERIOD

 

[Glockfan71]

Rant away! I'm glad to see some LE think its rediculas also. I strongly believe to concentrate on the criminals and stop stomping on Law Abiding citizens rights. Alot of my Leo friends think to as well. Thank you sir.

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[WPDC13]

When I was down the Cape, there was way too many that down right openly admitted that they dont like guns. Then I was the a-hole for telling them they are in the wrong field. Since I moved back to the central/western part of the state I have not encountered any like that. All rabidly pro 2a and thats the way I like it!

 

[GPP]

one day this will never happen. the issuing should always be LTC-A no restrictions PERIOD

Excellent contribution!

 

[bandaid bandit]

Holy moly is that accurate ( the lobotomy comment)! My chief is one of my closest friends, I was his FTO 23 years ago. I listened to him say " dam, if I was chief, I'd fix this, and never do that etc" countless times. Now that he's chief, his outlook has changed, and I'd say some because he's matured, but mostly because of friggin liability. His "training wheels" mentality of issuing LTC-B only for the first year drives me absolutely bat shit crazy.

I'd be surprised if you haven't thought of this avenue of approach, but what about the baby steps approach to getting unrestricted with your COP? If he is dead set on his training wheels philosophy, why not a T&H LTC-A vs LTC-B. Still an outrage, but a small win while further attempts to convert him are undertaken, whether willingly through education, or more likely, through litigation removing discretion.

 

[GPP]

I'd be surprised if you haven't thought of this avenue of approach, but what about the baby steps approach to getting unrestricted with your COP? If he is dead set on his training wheels philosophy, why not a T&H LTC-A vs LTC-B. Still an outrage, but a small win while further attempts to convert him are undertaken, whether willingly through education, or more likely, through litigation removing discretion.

Good call, but that option has been thrown his way as well. I also think that would be the end of the road too, as it stands now, when your year is up, you get issued your LTC-A ( of course after re applying and paying the 100 drachmas, ) unrestricted. He won't issue ALP, he issues for " Protection" which is way old school lol.

Unfortunately, the amount of the populace that has both the time and the money for litigation in regards to this is excruciatingly small.

 

[GJH86]

Carry away. When seconds count, the cops will be there in minutes. I never ever understood the mentality of looking to charge a guy with some silly malum prohibitum crime if there is no real need to. The police have discretion in most matters and should use it wisely. In other situations, they do not (209A violations, domestic violence violations, OUI to name a few..too many law suits if they DO NOT act). Too many have become robots or unwittingly the .gov henchmen. Usually its the dumb, ignorant (redundant I know), ego/power monger, liability conscious or black & white/inflexible cops who do this. Too many who are in the pursuit of trying too hard to do their job forget what their jobs really is and fail by feeding into the systemic political monster that is MA policing. It means something to be a "policeman". It also means something to be a JBT. BIG differnece. The 2nd ammendment is there for a reason, as are all ammendments. Each is worth preseving and protecting. It is what separates this country from so many others.

 

[GPP]

Carry away. When seconds count, the cops will be there in minutes. I never ever understood the mentality of looking to charge a guy with some silly malum prohibitum crime if there is no real need to. The police have discretion in most matters and should use it wisely. In other situations, they do not (209A violations, domestic violence violations, OUI to name a few..too many law suits if they DO NOT act). Too many have become robots or unwittingly the .gov henchmen. Usually its the dumb, ignorant (redundant I know), ego/power monger, liability conscious or black & white/inflexible cops who do this. Too many who are in the pursuit of trying too hard to do their job forget what their jobs really is and fail by feeding into the systemic political monster that is MA policing. It means something to be a "policeman". It also means something to be a JBT. BIG differnece. The 2nd ammendment is there for a reason, as are all ammendments. Each is worth preseving and protecting. It is what separates this country from so many others.

I think I really only understood your discretion comment. But, in MA, police still have discretion in OUI, and domestic violence situations, but you are correct, not in 209A violations. I think I understand what you mean in regards to the difference between police officers and JBT, and that certainly has some merit. You lost me at systemic political monster though. Police departments have become what they've become for the most part because of liability concerns. The fear of being sued overrules common sense with just about every police chief in the state.

 

[Roscoe]

The popo in my town are respectful and the chief seems reasonable. They had to show up to my house 9 years ago over a 209A my x filed, they showed great concern over preserving my rights and my firearms. I have alot of respect for them over that, it was a shit situation, and they injected something positive where they could have been dicks. It was a big deal to me then, and still is now.

After moving out for several years, i'm back in my old house and have interacted with them several times over the years. Always professional, always "people centered" community officers.

MA State police on the other hand treat people like dog shit. So my view of them is based on the same respect i'm showed when i interact with them.

 

[GJH86]

My point was Irwin v Ware makes cops leery of giving breaks in OUI cases..so you hit the nail on the head with liability issues. I see it all the time in domestics too. Arrests are being made that do not need to be in that regard due to liability fears.

My point with the political machine is that most chiefs are appointed by the mayor/town manager etc. If the Chief wants to keep his/her job (most are contracted non union positions) they must tow the line. If the mayor/town manager etc want to push an issue the Chiefs fall in line. The cops who want to rise do what they can to appease the chief, even if that means enforcing laws & ordinances most common sense cops would not. Get in the Chiefs pocket & you can rise with or without merit. When politics get involved its bad for all, and it happens. Way too often in too many agencies. I happen to be lucky there; many are not.

 

[GPP]

The popo in my town are respectful and the chief seems reasonable. They had to show up to my house 9 years ago over a 209A my x filed, they showed great concern over preserving my rights and my firearms. I have alot of respect for them over that, it was a shit situation, and they injected something positive where they could have been dicks. It was a big deal to me then, and still is now.

After moving out for several years, i'm back in my old house and have interacted with them several times over the years. Always professional, always "people centered" community officers.

MA State police on the other hand treat people like dog shit. So my view of them is based on the same respect i'm showed when i interact with them.

Good to hear on the locals dealing with you and your issue, and preserving your 2A, that's how things are supposed to go. MSP don't get to interact with normal people like local and city cops do, which (in my opinion) absolutely is one of the main reasons they are ****ing *******s more often than not. They all aren't *******s, the same as all local/city cops aren't warm and fuzzy with the entire populace. Glad it worked out for you.

 

[Roscoe]

Agreed.

 

[GJH86]

Roscoe; 2nd on that's the way it's supposed to work. I'm glad you were given professional service. Cops always get lumped together when something bad/dumb happens. Hell, just follow some NES threads!! Cops are not all bad, sounds like you got the good ones.

 

[GPP]

My point was Irwin v Ware makes cops leery of giving breaks in OUI cases..so you hit the nail on the head with liability issues. I see it all the time in domestics too. Arrests are being made that do not need to be in that regard due to liability fears.

My point with the political machine is that most chiefs are appointed by the mayor/town manager etc. If the Chief wants to keep his/her job (most are contracted non union positions) they must tow the line. If the mayor/town manager etc want to push an issue the Chiefs fall in line. The cops who want to rise do what they can to appease the chief, even if that means enforcing laws & ordinances most common sense cops would not. Get in the Chiefs pocket & you can rise with or without merit. When politics get involved its bad for all, and it happens. Way too often in too many agencies. I happen to be lucky there; many are not.

Ahh much better now I am tracking. Every department has its Kool-aide drinkers, but so does every other business, no matter if its private or public, and that's the same for the military and govt, kiss the right ass, and get taken care of. That unfortunately is human nature. I have absolutely seen my boss be influenced by a selectman or town manager, and it usually doesn't last long. A long ways back my town beautified the center of town with super awesome sidewalks, nice street lights, and nice wrought iron benches, bolted to the ground all over town. Well sure enough, that summer, weren't those benches occupied by kids! All night! ****ing hilarious. Selectmen didn't want kids hanging out in the square, told the chief and it trickled down, keep the kids moving and out of the square! Well, after much ballyhoo, the union president at the time (yours truly) said sure thing, give us the proper law to enforce, and the kids will be moved. But of course there isn't a law, and that was the end of it. My current chief isn't much of a kool aide drinker which is excellent.

 

[falcon123]

What's good for the goose........

 

[GPP]

What's good for the goose........

what are you talking about?

 

[drgrant]

I think I really only understood your discretion comment. But, in MA, police still have discretion in OUI

If they do, the LEOs who use it are few and far between now. First it was many or most of them gave breaks to people on the edge (likely, the .08ish people we were taking about in the other thread) . Then it was they only gave breaks to other cops. Now I hear tales of other cops getting thrown into cop cars for OUI, because the new template in most places is "nobody gets a break because if I ever got caught giving one I'd get fired." I think a big reason for this now is all the computers and so on. There is no more plausible deniability anymore.

-Mike

 

[Usmc1345]

I'm very glad this got a conversation started. I will agree most of the cops I deal with are not anti but almost neutral. Then they put their "us vs them" mentality in the front and the argument starts. Most of them own a gun or to and never shoot. I think most ate scared of them to be honest. I am very pro 2a and can't understand how people can't see that this is our right. I'm a cop because its a good job, not because I want to be / think I'm better. I was a US citizen and US Marine way before I was a police office.

 

[GPP]

If they do, the LEOs who use it are few and far between now. First it was many or most of them gave breaks to people on the edge (likely, the .08ish people we were taking about in the other thread) . Then it was they only gave breaks to other cops. Now I hear tales of other cops getting thrown into cop cars for OUI, because the new template in most places is "nobody gets a break because if I ever got caught giving one I'd get fired." I think a big reason for this now is all the computers and so on. There is no more plausible deniability anymore.

-Mike

Actually, there is. What there isn't, unfortunately, is balls. When I first got on the job, I parked more cars for people, and drove them home more often then not. If you got klinked by me, I assure you, you deserved it. Why? I was taught correctly, I was fresh out of the Marines, and I had balls, a quality very much lacking in the 21 to 27 year olds today. You can still do the same things today, in fact I do it all the time, even tho I'm not in patrol anymore. Computers have zero to do with it. Being chickenshit, does.