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Congressman Asks Big Sis to Explain Huge Ammo Purchases
- Thread starter scubadive.ri
- Start date
Oh, so you would actually be sensible. Too bad people like you never get to run government organizations.
Quiet
Banned
That sux big time. I hope that they can figure out a way to reduce the impact and that you can make it to the next fiscal year without going broke.
That really sux.
Scarecrow
Army Veteran
As has been discussed, these numbers are incomplete, so the equation is inherently flawed, but just going off the numbers given of 1.6b rounds and 15m used yearly, it gives them training ammo for 106.666666 years (1.6b /15m).
/Mathgeek
Quiet
Banned
Hey mathgeek, did you check out the other posts on how many agents DHS has and how many rounds DHS agents fire in practice/qual?
We need better numbers to start with before you can do good math.
We need better numbers to start with before you can do good math.
ochmude
Marine Veteran
The concern is appreciated. We have our own tinfoil theories within the agencies as to what's going to happen. Right now everyone is pretty convinced that the goal is to make things very unpleasant for employees so those near the top of the payscale that are eligible for retirement but not yet at the age of mandatory retirement will just call it quits. This would have the same effect as layoffs without the political cost of actually laying people off.
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Hague Convention, actually.
Good luck with this I have been through several RIFs but survived. What you say about pushing the ones at the top of the pay scale is a tried and true approach that has worked for years (they must teach that at big goverment managers training school). I worked for the feds at one time (not a LEO) and that’s where I really learned to hate big and small government (yes folks small gov sucks just as bad). Contrary to what a lot of posters on this forum like to maintain a lot of federal employees are hardworking folks in a shitty system who care about constitutional rights. I got out because I could not stand the politics and the PC crap. I've done alright but I feel for some of my buddies that stayed in.
Just curious you are in AZ, are you a NE transplant or do you just enjoy posting on this forum because we are so intellectually stimulating?
If the DHS is requiring 750 rounds / quarter for qualification, that right there is wasteful.
750 rounds in a single session is well past qualification requirements, it's deep into muscle fatigue / endurance testing.
Qualifying every quarter is excessive. They'd be much better off to set up a once / month 100 round training sessions + once a year 300 round qualification. Half the ammunition and more regular training in smaller amounts is much more effective for skills maintaince.
Ochmude,
Definately feel for you. I don't think anyone here is faulting any of the rank and file members of the DHS agencies, or saying that they are wasteful (some may be, but you'll get that anywhere.) We're talking about the leadership and policy makers. If the agents really are being forced to burn-up 3k rounds / year each for training and qualifications, then let the leadership publish those numbers and justify the purchases.
750 rounds in a single session is well past qualification requirements, it's deep into muscle fatigue / endurance testing.
Qualifying every quarter is excessive. They'd be much better off to set up a once / month 100 round training sessions + once a year 300 round qualification. Half the ammunition and more regular training in smaller amounts is much more effective for skills maintaince.
Ochmude,
Definately feel for you. I don't think anyone here is faulting any of the rank and file members of the DHS agencies, or saying that they are wasteful (some may be, but you'll get that anywhere.) We're talking about the leadership and policy makers. If the agents really are being forced to burn-up 3k rounds / year each for training and qualifications, then let the leadership publish those numbers and justify the purchases.
ochmude
Marine Veteran
It mostly comes from de-certification for overtime. Right now we have 2 hours of overtime built into our shifts to cover shift changes and processing arrest/booking paperwork. Those hours aren't paid at a true OT rate, though, since they're built in (more like time and a quarter). But we're also being furloughed one day every other week. We're also losing FLSA coverage somehow, but I haven't figured out how that will work yet. Ultimately, the result is going from 100 hours per payperiod to 72 hours per payperiod, plus losing a few categories of premium pay.
My wife and I should weather the paycut without too much heartache, but the bigger issue in my mind is the fact that the loss of those 2 hours of overtime means that there will be about 1 hour and 45 minutes between each shift where there are zero agents on the border. These gaps will take place at the same times, three times a day, every single day. Soooooo, yeah, pretty much wide open borders.
I would like to know exactly from them who the ammo was going too, and is it actualy being shared by all of the agencies stated, and if possible a total amout of ammo used by all agencies per year
This is the largest order ever in a time when money is tight, so i would like to see even if its a legit amount of ammo, exactly where my money and ammo is going
This is the largest order ever in a time when money is tight, so i would like to see even if its a legit amount of ammo, exactly where my money and ammo is going
Quiet
Banned
Same reason The President didn't release his documentation until the crazies had made themselves looks as foolish as possible before debunking it?
Why answer questions until it is in your best interest? Let people be distracted by a non-issue, if it is a non issue. I f it isn't a non-issue, why answer it unless forced to do so?
The most transparent administration in history.
![[shocked]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/007.gif "Shocked [shocked]")
ochmude
Marine Veteran
I used to live in Holyoke and Chicopee after that. I stick around NES because the gun forum for this area (AZ) is rather boring. The BS laws in Massachusetts, as horrible as they are, actually give people interesting things to talk about.
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Just going off of what the article said... typical article doesn't break it down completely... Thanks for the clarification.
Question:
I thought the Coast Guard was covered under the DOD since it is considered a branch of the Military? So wouldn't they get FMJ just like the rest of the military through military supply?
Also, Reserves do NOT shoot unless it is a part of their rating (mos / specialty)... I would guestimate that half of the Coast Guard shooting would still be an over estimate.
ochmude
Marine Veteran
The Coast Guard used to be under Department of Transportation, and would be folded into Department of Defense during times of war. After 9/11, they were brought into Department of Homeland Security. Additionally, they're mission has expanded substantially and some coasties are actually classified as FLEO's, complete with LEOSA coverage and everything.
ochmude
Marine Veteran
Regarding the 750 rounds/quarter, that seemed pretty high to me, so I just re-checked my record book. That number that I originally posted (3510) also included the firearms training at the academy, which was 3 times a week rather than just once a quarter. So that artificially inflated the quarterly average. I feel like an ass for not catching that earlier. I just looked at my total round count and didn't pay attention to the dates. I swear I wasn't trying to be misleading in any way. Right now for FY13 I'm averaging 336 rounds per quarter, excluding off duty shooting.
SteelShooter
NES Member
Wow, if only we had an extra $250MM laying around somewhere, I'm sure that would help instead of cutting your pay. Sorry about that, is there someone we can call or write to?
This. I am sick and tired of people here saying ooooh, it's for training. BULLSHIT. Lets see, who here uses hollow point ammo for practice except for once in a while and to make sure your gun cycles it properly? Thought so. Now , how can DHS justify letting violent illegals, drunk drivers etc out of prison due to ...wait for it....CUTS....well here's an idea...stop buying so many bullets. How is that for critical thinking?
I know for a fact they use hollow point for training, and I am not a Federal Agent
Ok, that's a lot more reasonable. As a tax payer, I don't mind paying for qualifying and reasonable training. I was involved in writing up a proposal for our local police officers to get upto 2 hours paid range training time per month with upto 100rd department provided ammunition for training, providing that targets and range time was properly logged and accounted for. While it didn't pass, I tried to help push it through because several recent incidents have demonstrated how lacking many of our local police officers are in terms of firearms training - in one incident, 3 officers fired more than 30 rounds at a shooter and missed completely.
Since an investigation into the events following an assassination attempt on Ronald Reagan showed that a federal agent missed the shooter because of the difference in ballistics between his training ammunition (.38 Special Wad-cutter) and duty ammunition (.357 magnum semi-jacketed hollow point) it has been policy for federal agencies to train/qualify with their carry ammunition.
RK1717
NES Member
I think it's totally stupid that some international body thinks they can regulate how one country kills another.
They did that with bayonets. Guys were bleeding to death from the old WW1 bayonets. They said the doctors couldn't stitch up the wounded man.
Unfortunately people die. But isn't that the point?
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RK1717,
The Hague Convension and Geneva Conventions were established to provide moral boundries which countries agreed to adhere to in an effort to slow the escalation of war. Stratigically, killing the enemy isn't the goal, greviously wounding him is the goal. Prior to these conventions of the "Rules of War" countries were developing every more diabolical and vicious methods of wounding enemy soldiers without killing them because caring for the wounded requires much more effort than burying the dead and seeing maimed commrades in agonizing pain without the possibility of treatment is extremely demoralizing and much more effective militarily than simply killing him.
The path countries were on before these conventions were conviened wasn't one where soldiers were getting killed, rather one where ever increasing numbers of soldiers and civilians were being left perminantly maimed with painful, often festerting wounds. The US adheres to these conventions of war conduct because we expect our enemies to do the same.
The Hague Convension and Geneva Conventions were established to provide moral boundries which countries agreed to adhere to in an effort to slow the escalation of war. Stratigically, killing the enemy isn't the goal, greviously wounding him is the goal. Prior to these conventions of the "Rules of War" countries were developing every more diabolical and vicious methods of wounding enemy soldiers without killing them because caring for the wounded requires much more effort than burying the dead and seeing maimed commrades in agonizing pain without the possibility of treatment is extremely demoralizing and much more effective militarily than simply killing him.
The path countries were on before these conventions were conviened wasn't one where soldiers were getting killed, rather one where ever increasing numbers of soldiers and civilians were being left perminantly maimed with painful, often festerting wounds. The US adheres to these conventions of war conduct because we expect our enemies to do the same.
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DHS is horseshit. period.
If the goal is to make us safer, spend their insane budget on getting people to wash their hands, and wear seatbelts. That will save 10,000 % more lives than DHS ever will.
If the goal is to make us safer, spend their insane budget on getting people to wash their hands, and wear seatbelts. That will save 10,000 % more lives than DHS ever will.
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