Congressman Asks Big Sis to Explain Huge Ammo Purchases

[scubadive.ri]

Finally someone is asking questions.

And correct me if I'm wrong.... This JHP ammo can't be used by our troops.

Ball ammunition has a solid copper or steel jacket (full metal jacket), completely covering the bullets core, usually made of lead. The base, or back of the bullet can be exposed lead. If the base is jacketed in metal as well, it's known as a total metal jacket. The Geneva convention dictates that all small arms ammunition used in armed conflict be ball ammo, in order to avoid the truly catastrophic injuries that result from hollow point, poisoned, cross tipped, soft point,etc...


» Congressman Asks Big Sis to Explain Huge Ammo Purchases Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

 

[Gillham]

Shoot what you carry. And correct, .mil cannot use JHP.

 

[Jonny5]

This was a purchase by DHS not DoD so I'm not sure if Geneva Convention rules apply within our own borders or for agencies not engaged in war/armed conflict with other countries.

 

[Jason Flare]

This was a purchase by DHS not DoD so I'm not sure if Geneva Convention rules apply within our own borders or for agencies not engaged in war/armed conflict with other countries.

I think that's the point. The ammunition is useless in a foreign country and expensive for target practice. Which leaves the third option.

 

[ShadeWPI]

The quotes from the marine are pure misdirection on the part of the article's author.

With I believe 1 exception, Marines don't use hollow-points for training or duty use as expanding bullets by national military units are an international treaty violation. The one exception is, I believe the Marine Corps have approved non-expanding "match" hollow points for designated marksmen and sniper use with .308 rifles.

At least at the federal level, there was a push after an assassination attempt on President Reagan to "train with the same ammunition you carry" after it was noted that the federal agent to grazed the top of the shooter's head with his .357 magnum pistol was trained using .38 special semi-wad cutters, which had a point of impact 4" lower at the range he was shooting than the semi-jacketed hollow point .357 magnum ammunition he was shooting. So yes, I believe the Department of Homeland Security is purchasing 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition for training purposes - however I would still like to see the department's break-down of where, when and over how-long they expect to use this ammunition. I'd also like to see updated accounting for the actual use of the ammunition. If this bulk purchase was intended to reduce cost, why did the contracts not spread the purchase over multiple years? If the purpose is training and cost savings, why did the department not release a request for proposal of a lower-cost "ballistically matched" alternative?

Will the Department of Homeland Security be reselling the bulk purchase to local and state law enforcement so as to reduce their costs as well? I could actually support the DHS operating as a distributor / group buyer for thousands of local law enforcement agencies to leverage national buying power to reduce the burden on local tax payers, but I highly doubt that is their intent.

Yes, I'd like to know more about the DHS purchase, plans and implementation. So far it feels like the Department of Homeland Security's response has basically been, "We need it, we're being responsible, just trust us."

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

I could be wrong on the Federal level, but the big purchase could be learning from the states. What do I mean?

A friend who worked at the Norfolk Prison told me that the guards there have to use frangible bullets because that is what they trained with and qualified with due to the limitations of the Mass State semi-trailer movable gun range. There have to carry frangible bullets only since that is what they qualified with.

If I am wrong let me know, I am passing on what I was told. So it could be that in order to use JHP in their service guns they have to practice and qualify with it, of course why do they need JHP in the U.S.? Also why do they need guns, aren't the police there to protect them as well as us, "Protect and Serve" just see "Warren v. District of Columbia"

 

[Bfatz]

Well its about time someone asked. Now lets wait for the Justification as to why.

( Of course most of us here know why, but its nice to hear it anyway )

 

[scubadive.ri]

I think that's the point. The ammunition is useless in a foreign country and expensive for target practice. Which leaves the third option.

Exactly

 

[PappyM3]

I think that's the point. The ammunition is useless in a foreign country and expensive for target practice. Which leaves the third option.

Federal LEOs practice with their duty ammo. And when you buy in bulk, it's not that much more expensive. It also saves them from the cost and time of having to manage two different ammunition supply systems. Come on people, instead of immediately jumping on the "They're going to be executing US citizens!" bandwagon, try some honest critical thinking first.

The quotes from the marine are pure misdirection on the part of the article's author.

With I believe 1 exception, Marines don't use hollow-points for training or duty use as expanding bullets by national military units are an international treaty violation. The one exception is, I believe the Marine Corps have approved non-expanding "match" hollow points for designated marksmen and sniper use with .308 rifles.

The Mk 262 and Mk 318 are DoD-wide rounds, and not just Marine Corps.

 

[xtry51]

The main point is based on current training usage DHS has purchased enough ammo for 75 years of training.

They're clearly not buying it for training.

 

[SteelShooter]

Federal LEOs practice with their duty ammo. And when you buy in bulk, it's not that much more expensive. It also saves them from the cost and time of having to manage two different ammunition supply systems. Come on people, instead of immediately jumping on the "They're going to be executing US citizens!" bandwagon, try some honest critical thinking first.



The Mk 262 and Mk 318 are DoD-wide rounds, and not just Marine Corps.

Yea, it's not that much, if you space it out over 10 years its only about 438,000 rounds PER DAY, every day , 365 days.

 

[CTpatriot]

This was a purchase by DHS not DoD so I'm not sure if Geneva Convention rules apply within our own borders or for agencies not engaged in war/armed conflict with other countries.

god forbid any international conventions of was would apply to US citizens, maybe we should appeal to the UN, wait a minute we dont count there, sorry.

 

[swatgig]

Now lets wait for the Justification as to why.

Don't hold your breath

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Yea, it's not that much, if you space it out over 10 years its only about 438,000 rounds PER DAY, every day , 365 days.

 

[SpeedOften]

Reading through the articles it seems DHS is selling some of the 1.6 Billion to Immigration as well...

DHS said they use 15 million per year...

The 1.6 Billion is over 5 years...

Did a bit of Google - ing and modern ammo is good for ~20 years if kept in original packaging as well as in a temperature and humidity controlled environment. Anyone agree or disagree? I am no expert on this...

That is still *only* 300 million... used though in 20 years. Government waste????

 

[mctrinket]

The main point is based on current training usage DHS has purchased enough ammo for 75 years of training.

They're clearly not buying it for training.

This.

It's a fair question she ought to be made to answer. Certainly something that ought to be looked into. It seems strange and unnecessary to make such ridiculously massive ammo purchases unless there are some other agendas at work--either to create artificial ammo shortages or perhaps to take care of contractor friends in the industry, etc.

 

[ochmude]

Reading through the articles it seems DHS is selling some of the 1.6 Billion to Immigration as well...

Huh?

 

[Serapis]

God damn I hate anything that includes the words democrat and association.

- - - Updated - - -

Reading through the articles it seems DHS is selling some of the 1.6 Billion to Immigration as well...

DHS said they use 15 million per year...

The 1.6 Billion is over 5 years...

Did a bit of Google - ing and modern ammo is good for ~20 years if kept in original packaging as well as in a temperature and humidity controlled environment. Anyone agree or disagree? I am no expert on this...

That is still *only* 300 million... used though in 20 years. Government waste????

What just happened?

 

[NEVER SURRENDER]

The main point is based on current training usage DHS has purchased enough ammo for 75 years of training.

They're clearly not buying it for training.

This. I am sick and tired of people here saying ooooh, it's for training. BULLSHIT. Lets see, who here uses hollow point ammo for practice except for once in a while and to make sure your gun cycles it properly? Thought so. Now , how can DHS justify letting violent illegals, drunk drivers etc out of prison due to ...wait for it....CUTS....well here's an idea...stop buying so many bullets. How is that for critical thinking?

 

[ochmude]

This. I am sick and tired of people here saying ooooh, it's for training. BULLSHIT. Lets see, who here uses hollow point ammo for practice except for once in a while and to make sure your gun cycles it properly? Thought so. Now , how can DHS justify letting violent illegals, drunk drivers etc out of prison due to ...wait for it....CUTS....well here's an idea...stop buying so many bullets. How is that for critical thinking?

Are you saying that DHS doesn't use hollowpoints for training, or are you saying that DHS doesn't use this many hollowpoints for training?

 

[knoxy]

DHS said they use 15 million per year...

The 1.6 Billion is over 5 years...

OK math whiz, what about the other 1.525 BILLION rounds?[sad2]

 

[PappyM3]

The main point is based on current training usage DHS has purchased enough ammo for 75 years of training.

They're clearly not buying it for training.

What exactly is the basis for your math?

Reading through the articles it seems DHS is selling some of the 1.6 Billion to Immigration as well...

DHS said they use 15 million per year...

The 1.6 Billion is over 5 years...

False FLETC, the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center uses 15-20 million per year. That's just the academy for Federal LEOs. Once they get to their agencies, they do their own training there. Also, ICE(Immigration and Customs Enforcement) is an agency within DHS. So, yeah, DHS is going to be giving some of the ammo to ICE. Let me repost something that I already posted on this forum. It's a breakdown of the number of training rounds for DHS:

The 15 million per year was JUST for the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, or FLETC. That's basically the academy for Federal agents. Training goes on at many more locations than that. And anyway, FLETC actually claims to use about 20 million rounds per year when everything is said and done.

Let's look at a rough breakdown of the numbers.
1,600,000,000 rounds. How many years is that for? I haven't been able to find out, but I've seen previous purchases claimed to be for 5 years. So, lets say 5 years.
So now we have 320,000,000 per year.
Remove the 20,000,000 for FLETC and we are left with 300,000,000 rounds per year for all of DHS.
DHS has
Homeland Security Investigations(special agents for ICE) : 8,500 agents
Border Patrol : 21,444 agents
Secret Service: 4,400 agents
Coast Guard: 41,873 active and 8,100 reserves
Total, we have 84,317 personnel that need to stay proficient with their firearms. That's NOT including all the uniformed police for ICE and the Secret Service. That's also not including the small number of special agents in the inspector general offices of the other agencies.

Broken down, that 300,000,000 rounds for a year divided by 84,317 gives us:
3,558 rounds per year to train with. Shooters who train regularly know that while this certainly isn't a pittance, it's not a massive amount either. It's definitely not super alarming or outrageous.

 

[PappyM3]

This. I am sick and tired of people here saying ooooh, it's for training. BULLSHIT. Lets see, who here uses hollow point ammo for practice except for once in a while and to make sure your gun cycles it properly? Thought so. Now , how can DHS justify letting violent illegals, drunk drivers etc out of prison due to ...wait for it....CUTS....well here's an idea...stop buying so many bullets. How is that for critical thinking?

So.... because some civilian shooters don't train with their intended carry ammo, that means Federal Law Enforcement does the same? Your critical thinking and logic need some work. Training time and ammunition is one place where the military and Fed agencies should not be cutting funding. Training is not a frivolous expenditure.

 

[ochmude]

What exactly is the basis for your math?




False FLETC, the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center uses 15-20 million per year. That's just the academy for Federal LEOs. Once they get to their agencies, they do their own training there. Let me repost something that I already posted on this forum. It's a breakdown of the number of training rounds for DHS:

[/COLOR]

You're also forgetting OFO and OAM under CBP.

 

[PappyM3]

You're also forgetting OFO and OAM under CBP.

I figured they were included in the number of agents I listed for CBP, but I may be wrong there. Regardless, my listed numbers are the minimum that I could claim. There are definitely additional FLEOs that I missed.

 

[davemata]

You're also forgetting OFO and OAM under CBP.

So do you feel the 1.6bil is reasonable for say, a 5 year span?

 

[PappyM3]

So do you feel the 1.6bil is reasonable for say, a 5 year span?

Do you feel that 3,500 rounds to train with during an entire year is excessive for a law enforcement officer?

 

[ochmude]

I figured they were included in the number of agents I listed for CBP, but I may be wrong there. Regardless, my listed numbers are the minimum that I could claim. There are definitely additional FLEOs that I missed.

I didn't see them inluded. OFO adds about 22,000 customs officers and OAM adds about 1600 air and marine interdiction agents, which would bring the total up to around 105,000-110,000 total FLEO's.

 

[ShadeWPI]

This.

It's a fair question she ought to be made to answer. Certainly something that ought to be looked into. It seems strange and unnecessary to make such ridiculously massive ammo purchases unless there are some other agendas at work--either to create artificial ammo shortages or perhaps to take care of contractor friends in the industry, etc.

Another possible cause would be to inflate their budgetary needs to justify maintaining their current budget levels / expanding their budget levels at a time when The American People and Congress are demanding budget cuts. "We made a commitment to purchase this ammunition and armored vehicles, so if you cut our budget we'll need to slash personal costs rather than being able to cut back on a hundred million dollars per year in ammunition purchases.

 

[NEVER SURRENDER]

Are you saying that DHS doesn't use hollowpoints for training, or are you saying that DHS doesn't use this many hollowpoints for training?

I am saying that if DHS can't keep criminals locked up than why are they still making these purchases. There is no reason anyone needs to train with so many hollowpoints. BUT then again when it isn't coming out of their pocket who cares. Instead of making apologies for them why not be pissed off about the money wasted. I mostly train with regular fmj and still effectively land on target with hollowpoint.