Congressman Asks Big Sis to Explain Huge Ammo Purchases

[Quiet]

I'm not ready to put the tin foil hat on, but I definitely would like to see a better accounting of this. On it's face it seems excessive but...

IDK if 3,500 rounds is a lot or a little for each and every agent, but this department may need to have an "initial inventory" and be able to ensure at any point during the 5 years that they're not caught out in any potential shortage situation, they may be replacing ammo that has been outdated. And yes, they may be planning for a surge in need, too.

If you were running the organization (I know, I know. NONE of YOU would be for various ethical and moral and philosophical reasons) you might be looking to ensure that you had a strong and steady supply of ammo. After all, it's not your money, and "use it or lose it" is de rigueur in the .gov

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Another possible cause would be to inflate their budgetary needs to justify maintaining their current budget levels / expanding their budget levels at a time when The American People and Congress are demanding budget cuts. "We made a commitment to purchase this ammunition and armored vehicles, so if you cut our budget we'll need to slash personal costs rather than being able to cut back on a hundred million dollars per year in ammunition purchases.

"Use it or lose it."

 

[NEVER SURRENDER]

So.... because some civilian shooters don't train with their intended carry ammo, that means Federal Law Enforcement does the same? Your critical thinking and logic need some work. Training time and ammunition is one place where the military and Fed agencies should not be cutting funding. Training is not a frivolous expenditure.

Yeah but letting already locked up criminals out is the way to go.

 

[ochmude]

So do you feel the 1.6bil is reasonable for say, a 5 year span?

In order for me to answer that question, I would like to be able to see at least a somewhat firm number of the total number of armed personnel for all of DHS. If Pappy's numbers are correct, plus the additional FLEO's I mentioned, that 1.6billion gives each agent about 3000 rounds per year over 5 years.

Looking at my record book for my duty weapon, I've fired 3510 rounds since 09/13/2011, so 3000 rounds a year actually seems exactly correct.

 

[ochmude]

I am saying that if DHS can't keep criminals locked up than why are they still making these purchases. There is no reason anyone needs to train with so many hollowpoints. BUT then again when it isn't coming out of their pocket who cares. Instead of making apologies for them why not be pissed off about the money wasted. I mostly train with regular fmj and still effectively land on target with hollowpoint.

That still didn't answer my question. I'm not arguing in favor of training with JHP ammo. I would much prefer using FMJ for the cost savings. I'm just trying to figure out whether or not you actually believe that DHS trains with JHP. I couldn't tell from your post. Really, that's all I'm trying to ascertain. There is no other motive.

EDIT: Specifically, what has me confused is your use of the term "bullshit". You could either be saying "bullshit" as in "I think that's a bullshit lie", or as in "I think that's a bullshit waste of money." I'm just curious which it is.

 

[Juiced06GTO]

My Dad worked for ICE before he passed away and was issued 500 rds per 1/4 to train with on his own time, plus what he shot for quals every 1/4 and their yearly night shoot.

 

[NEVER SURRENDER]

That still didn't answer my question. I'm not arguing in favor of training with JHP ammo. I would much prefer using FMJ for the cost savings. I'm just trying to figure out whether or not you actually believe that DHS trains with JHP. I couldn't tell from your post. Really, that's all I'm trying to ascertain. There is no other motive.

Sure they do. They don't need to do all their training with it. Do they?? You must agree that you do not need to fire every round in hollowpoint?

 

[ochmude]

Sure they do. They don't need to do all their training with it. Do they?? You must agree that you do not need to fire every round in hollowpoint?

I absolutely agree. I think using JHP exclusively for training is a huge waste of money. I've said so several times in this forum.

 

[Bob Palermo]

Sure they do. They don't need to do all their training with it. Do they?? You must agree that you do not need to fire every round in hollowpoint?

If money was no object to you, would you practice with what you carry? Of course you would. We all would. And money is no object to the DHS.

 

[warpig]

I have a question on the 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition for the government. Are the manufacturer's required to sell to .gov first? Here is the reason I ask:

I'm making the assumption that the govenment is getting a giant discount for such a massive order. If I was a business, and there was such insatiable demand, why wouldn't I be selling to the general public if I was making a better margin there? Would you sign a contract with .gov if you knew you could make more per round by selling to the public.
I don't think they would have trouble selling a billion rounds to America (there are a couple hundred million legally owned firearms out there). Just checking to see if I'm off base with my understaning here. Does the government swoop in and mandate to manucaturers that they get first delivery.

Now I would totally understand it if manufacturers were making the same profit per round for .gov as they were for public sale. I'd also be pissed if my tax dollars were paying full price for each round.

Am I overthinking this?

 

[PappyM3]

In order for me to answer that question, I would like to be able to see at least a somewhat firm number of the total number of armed personnel for all of DHS. If Pappy's numbers are correct, plus the additional FLEO's I mentioned, that 1.6billion gives each agent about 3000 rounds per year over 5 years.

Looking at my record book for my duty weapon, I've fired 3510 rounds since 09/13/2011, so 3000 rounds a year actually seems exactly correct.

My given numbers are admittedly rough and based on the information I could find. However, I didn't see anybody else actually figuring out the number of people using those rounds I appreciate the correction on the additional OFO and OAM numbers.

 

[PappyM3]

I have a question on the 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition for the government. Are the manufacturer's required to sell to .gov first? Here is the reason I ask:

I'm making the assumption that the govenment is getting a giant discount for such a massive order. If I was a business, and there was such insatiable demand, why wouldn't I be selling to the general public if I was making a better margin there? Would you sign a contract with .gov if you knew you could make more per round by selling to the public.
I don't think they would have trouble selling a billion rounds to America (there are a couple hundred million legally owned firearms out there). Just checking to see if I'm off base with my understaning here. Does the government swoop in and mandate to manucaturers that they get first delivery.

Now I would totally understand it if manufacturers were making the same profit per round for .gov as they were for public sale. I'd also be pissed if my tax dollars were paying full price for each round.

Am I overthinking this?

If one is getting gov contracts, that is steady and stable income. Civilian market can be more profitable, but is also more volatile and riskier.

 

[NEVER SURRENDER]

That still didn't answer my question. I'm not arguing in favor of training with JHP ammo. I would much prefer using FMJ for the cost savings. I'm just trying to figure out whether or not you actually believe that DHS trains with JHP. I couldn't tell from your post. Really, that's all I'm trying to ascertain. There is no other motive.

EDIT: Specifically, what has me confused is your use of the term "bullshit". You could either be saying "bullshit" as in "I think that's a bullshit lie", or as in "I think that's a bullshit waste of money." I'm just curious which it is.

Bullshit=waste of money Bullshit = May be other motives as well with such large purchases at this time to corner market. Bullshit=They could be getting ready for something. All apply.

 

[JohnZ]

So we should expect 4 years with zero dollars budgeted for ammo, right?

 

[Mr Weebles]

Hollow point ammunition isn't prohibited by the Geneva Convention, it's prohibited by the Hague Convention.

 

[NEVER SURRENDER]

If money was no object to you, would you practice with what you carry? Of course you would. We all would. And money is no object to the DHS.

No. I like to put all kinds thru the barrel. Ammo is like a box of chocolates. Never know what you will be able to get.

 

[ochmude]

Bullshit=waste of money Bullshit = May be other motives as well with such large purchases at this time to corner market. Bullshit=They could be getting ready for something. All apply.

Gotcha. Using only JHP for training is so wasteful that some people genuinely think I'm lying when I say that's all we're allowed to use. I was just trying to figure out if you were in that boat. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[PappyM3]

Gotcha. Using only JHP for training is so wasteful that some people genuinely think I'm lying when I say that's all we're allowed to use. I was just trying to figure out if you were in that boat. Thank you for the clarification.

I'd be interested in seeing a cost breakdown of the bulk savings from only using JHP and also the time/red tape savings of not having to worry about two stocks of ammo per caliber. Then comparing it to using both. There would also need to be a schedule to cycle through duty ammo that hasn't been shot, yet has been constantly re-chambered. Of course, that can only be done if one has access to the bids/contracts and also the cost structure of the DHS supply system.

 

[Bob Palermo]

Using only JHP for training is so wasteful....

Only to people who pay for their ammo and are on a budget (most of us). JHP ammo does not cost much more to manufacture than FMJ, but they charge us a premium for it. If money is no object, or if you can get them close to "cost", then I would not call it wasteful.

 

[ochmude]

Only to people who pay for their ammo and are on a budget (most of us). JHP ammo does not cost much more to manufacture than FMJ, but they charge us a premium for it. If money is no object, or if you can get them close to "cost", then I would not call it wasteful.

Money is definitely an object.

 

[PappyM3]

Only to people who pay for their ammo and are on a budget (most of us). JHP ammo does not cost much more to manufacture than FMJ, but they charge us a premium for it. If money is no object, or if you can get them close to "cost", then I would not call it wasteful.

Indeed. Everyone here is basing their opinion on what they pay for ammo at the stores. Until we see the bids/contracts for the JHP ammo, we can't truly call it wasteful.

 

[Boghog1]

Do you feel that 3,500 rounds to train with during an entire year is excessive for a law enforcement officer?

Yes, I have yet to met an officer that gets that much training in, the vast majority only shoot once or twice a year.

 

[Quiet]

My Dad worked for ICE before he passed away and was issued 500 rds per 1/4 to train with on his own time, plus what he shot for quals every 1/4 and their yearly night shoot.

In order for me to answer that question, I would like to be able to see at least a somewhat firm number of the total number of armed personnel for all of DHS. If Pappy's numbers are correct, plus the additional FLEO's I mentioned, that 1.6billion gives each agent about 3000 rounds per year over 5 years.

Looking at my record book for my duty weapon, I've fired 3510 rounds since 09/13/2011, so 3000 rounds a year actually seems exactly correct.

+1 and +1 for the info

 

[ochmude]

Yes, I have yet to met an officer that gets that much training in, the vast majority only shoot once or twice a year.

Not in DHS. I posted my round counts. All of that was during quarterly qualifications, none of it was shooting on my own time.

 

[Bob Palermo]

Money is definitely an object.

And you know how much DHS paid for their 1.6B rounds of JHP ammo? And you know the cost difference between JHP and FMJ at the discounted government bulk rate of 1.6B rounds? Even if that difference was $10-$20 million, that is nothing to an agency with a budget well into the billions if not 10s of billions.

 

[Boghog1]

Not in DHS. I posted my round counts. All of that was during quarterly qualifications, none of it was shooting on my own time.

so each ¼ you use 750 rounds what about your supervisors, I imagine it doesn't take all 750 rounds to qualify and that a fair share of those rounds are meant for practice. Are there controls in place like we had a basic where rounds get check out at the range and no rounds leave? or are they like some local PDs that hand out boxes to any LEO that ask for some "practice" ammo?

 

[ochmude]

And you know how much DHS paid for their 1.6B rounds og JHP ammo? And you know the cost difference between JHP and FMJ at the discounted government bulk rate of 1.6B rounds? Even if that difference was $10-$20 million, that is nothing to an agency with a budget well into the billions if not 10s of billions.

No, but I do know that money is an object. Our sector's fuel and maintenance budget was just cut by 70%. Our pay is being cut by 43% in 17 days. Money is an object.

 

[Bob Palermo]

No, but I do know that money is an object. Our sector's fuel and maintenance budget was just cut by 70%. Our pay is being cut by 43% in 17 days. Money is an object.

So if you were the head of said DHS, and you knew there was a sequester coming (they knew about it for a long time), and you knew your budget was going to get slashed starting on a specific date, what would you do? If it were me, I would use up every penny of my original budget before the sequester hits. That may include as much ammo as possible (to last many years). Just a thought.

And for the record, I am sorry your pay is being cut. That truely sucks.

 

[ochmude]

so each ¼ you use 750 rounds what about your supervisors, I imagine it doesn't take all 750 rounds to qualify and that a fair share of those rounds are meant for practice. Are there controls in place like we had a basic where rounds get check out at the range and no rounds leave? or are they like some local PDs that hand out boxes to any LEO that ask for some "practice" ammo?

Supervisors and line agents shoot side by side. As far as controls, we are required to arrive to the range and leave the range with 6 full magazines plus 1 in the chamber. Additional ammo is issued on a case by case basis whenever we go to the range off duty for practice. We are not authorized to shoot any non-agency issued ammo through our duty weapons, even for practice. I don't track practice ammo that I fired on my own time in my weapon record book, though, so I can't give you those counts.

 

[davemata]

In order for me to answer that question, I would like to be able to see at least a somewhat firm number of the total number of armed personnel for all of DHS. If Pappy's numbers are correct, plus the additional FLEO's I mentioned, that 1.6billion gives each agent about 3000 rounds per year over 5 years.

Looking at my record book for my duty weapon, I've fired 3510 rounds since 09/13/2011, so 3000 rounds a year actually seems exactly correct.

Oh wow, ok. All those rounds fired were for training using department ammo?

Then while huge on the surface, if you've average and those numbers are close to accurate, it could be dead on the money for a 5-6 year span.

ETA - saw all those rounds were just for quals.

 

[ochmude]

So if you were the head of said DHS, and you knew there was a sequester coming (they knew about it for a long time), and you knew your budget was going to get slashed starting on a specific date, what would you do? If it were me, I would use up every penny of my original budget before the sequester hits. That may include as much ammo as possible (to last many years). Just a thought.

And for the record, I am sorry your pay is being cut. That truely sucks.

I would re-allocate funds to maintain operations as best as possible. Right now the agency is increasing spending on ammo but reducing the amount of agents on the line and reducing the amount of gas we can put in our trucks when we are on the line. Manpower and fuel are far more critical to operations than ammo.