Compliance Inspection

[dwarven1]

I hope I am wrong and Jack is right.

Well, we can agree on that!!

 

[gws1063]

If I'm counting correctly, massgun was number 4, so I'm number 5. Should be all over by this Friday afternoon. I'll let you know how it goes.

-Gary

 

[tele_mark]

I think an important data point would be whether these audits are taking place in free states as well or just in registration-intensive places like MAss.

 

[jdubois]

I haven't seen a C&R vendor make an exception on ammo for MA C&R holders.

Then you haven't been looking hard enough

 

[clinotus]

Someone humor me...and tell me how many lawyers I will need to order newly made 30 round mags with my C&R, since Im curios about what the differences are between they and my prebans relics.

 

[drgrant]

As in order firearms that are not on the list, and doing it through their C&R, but that were not C&R eligible, hence going around the list.

There is no such "crime" of "going around the list", at least not in the case of a Type 03 only acquiring firearms for their own use and isn't engaged in the business of selling guns to others. Since MA doesn't formally recognize Type 03s as dealers, all a type 03 really is in MA, is a person that can get a limited anount of firearms in the mail directly... they're still not really a dealer as far as MGL is concerned. (FWIW, there are also a few 01s in MA that may not be MA dealers, but that's another ball of wax... )

Why did they purge the kitchen table FFLs? Not the reason stated, but the real reason? Because they were getting privileges that private citizens weren't getting.

Wrong. It was because Clinton and his anti gun cohorts wanted to reduce the total number of gun dealers, people who could freely move and sell guns to others. The easiest way to do this without having to write big
legislation was to attack the group of dealers most vulnerable under the existing regs, which were many of the so called "kitchen table" dealers. Guys with less of a profit motive or other "reason" to have a Type 01. (interestingly enough though, there are still many small dealers around, they just figured out how to run their business to comply with the regs... ) Before the Clinton administration, basically BATFE didn't really care who had a Type 01, just as long as they filled out their paperwork correctly. A big shift in this attitude was due to changes made by the clinton admin in policy.

I would be highly surprised if MA government wonks were happy with people being able to potentially circumvent the local crap system here including ammo buys, etc.

You're reading too far into this. We can already circumvent most of that crap just by getting in our cars and driving an hour or less, and there isn't a damned thing they can do about it. Then again I kinda
see where you are coming from- eg, the AG's BS, etc. That's a different ballgame, though, and I don't think
that's really related to type-03's whatsoever.

-Mike

 

[Garys]

Don't get your panties in a twist, guys. Remember that when you buy any FFL, you agree, for better or worse, to get into bed with the feds. I have had 01 and 07 audits which went well because my books and inventory were in order. That's what they want. They don't want to discover issues that will make work for them. Read the regs and conform. Last year I had the 07 audit and was told that they were doing manufacturers at the time. The inspector told me that they had just done S&W. 10 inspectors, 4 days, 85,000 serial numbers. Yours won't take that long. Now is probably the time to do 03's. Jack.

You win the cigar! This was not tied to my renewal, she didn't even know that I was in the process thereof. Randomly picked, pretty much. 03s seem to be this year's license class to be inspected.

Took a bit over an hour to do everything. The more C&R guns, the longer it will take, I'd guess.

Inspected the book, matched the entries to the rifles, noted a minor error, had me correct it on the spot. Actually, I noticed the error and she told me what to do to correct it. She did want to look at the invoices for the 03 purchases. No interest at all in any thing not purchased with the 03, not even a question as to if I had anything. No interest in ammunition either. Nothing about EOPS, or anything else other than a reminder that all 03 licensees have to comply with their state and local regulations.

Asked some questions, nothing intrusive. At least I didn't think so. Went over a check list reviewing various CFRs, mostly related to 01s, but it's a one size fit's all form.

Two questions to feed the paranoid. One, if we had any pets, like big dobermans. Two, if everything is locked up when not being used. I suppose that could be intel for a midnight raid, but actually all they'd have to do is ring the doorbell and I'd let them in.

Gave me some helpful phone numbers if I have any questions.

One thing she told me about ammunition. The feds pretty much use the same rules as MA. Any component is considered ammunition. Mostly important in cases of a prohibited person possessing say, spent shell casings. Since I'm not, I don't much care.

As to the other stuff, I don't know of any ammo dealer that will ship to a C&R holder who wouldn't ship to a non C&R holder. Most won't ship to MA no matter what license you have. Some won't even ship ammo to 01 dealers. For example, Midway will give you dealer pricing if you send them your C&R, but they still won't ship ammunition. At least not to 03's.

 

[vellnueve]

Do we have to keep invoices?

 

[Garys]

Do we have to keep invoices?

I don't know if you have to, but I do as a matter of routine. C&R or no, I have the invoices for most of the stuff I've bought in the past 15 years.

 

[vellnueve]

Yeah, I don't think I have them all anymore. Some got wrecked when I spilled some printer refill fluid on them... And I definitely don't have them all filed or anything like that either.

From my reading of the regulations I thought the bound book was the only thing necessary.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I think that the "flushing" that LenS was talking about was when they purged the so-called "kitchen table" FFLs so that there were fewer FFLs in MA by using that "business premises" crap.

You read me correctly. If they want to see your house, how you store them, etc. it sounds like they might try to pull the "zoning issue" (really a non-issue for collectors) and any other excuse to revoke the C&R FFL and reduce the number of them . . . which has sky-rocketed in MA (see my remarks below on this).

As in order firearms that are not on the list, and doing it through their C&R, but that were not C&R eligible, hence going around the list.

I would be highly surprised if MA government wonks were happy with people being able to potentially circumvent the local crap system here including ammo buys, etc.

I think you may be correct. I recall Chief Ron Glidden telling me that BATFE had "inquired" of EOPS (or GCAB?) as to why there was such a spike in MA C&R FFL applications. Ron was the person who advised me to get mine when the 1998 law passed . . . he described it as a way around the List, etc.

So, my thinking is that EOPS/CHSB/etc. may not be too happy with the rise of 03s out there and may have requested BATFE to check to see if they could reduce that number by auditing the holders. Wouldn't surprise me in the least bit if this was the motivation. Likely the agent doing the audit wouldn't know what motivated these audits, only those at the "top" probably know the reason why.

 

[dwarven1]

So, my thinking is that EOPS/CHSB/etc. may not be too happy with the rise of 03s out there and may have requested BATFE to check to see if they could reduce that number by auditing the holders. Wouldn't surprise me in the least bit if this was the motivation.

Typical MA crap.

 

[namedpipes]

Can you self-revoke a C&R or invariably wait the 3 years? I love the benefits, but am wondering if they are worth the loss of privacy...

 

[vellnueve]

Yes, you can return the license with a note that you are ceasing your collecting activities under the license.

You'll also be doing exactly what Coakley wants you to do...

 

[Garys]

Yes, you can return the license with a note that you are ceasing your collecting activities under the license.

You'll also be doing exactly what Coakley wants you to do...

ATF has an "out of business" division, although I don't remember if that's what they call it. You have to send your bound book to them if you give up your license. You also have to close out the disposition of each acquisition by noting that you transfered the weapon to yourself. The ATF keeps those records.

I'm just going to reiterate what One Eyed Jack said. This was a routine inspection, not some nefarious plot by anyone at ATF or the AG's office. Or if it was, the inspector was an incredibly good actress.

I'll defer to the opinions of those who haven't had an inspection since their insights are obviously much more accurate than those of someone who has been inspected within the past 24 hours. Here is a patented Scrivener eye roll for you.

 

[silvereye21]

this 'bound book', is it a particular book you have to order? if so where do i get it? or do you just make your own record keeping book? im kinda confused when it comes to this. i havent bought any c&r's yet, but i was under the impression everything i needed was in my atf 'welcoming' packet which i recieved shortly after my license arrived. any info on this would be great.

 

[Garys]

this 'bound book', is it a particular book you have to order? if so where do i get it? or do you just make your own record keeping book? im kinda confused when it comes to this. i havent bought any c&r's yet, but i was under the impression everything i needed was in my atf 'welcoming' packet which i recieved shortly after my license arrived. any info on this would be great.

You can buy them, you can do them as an electronic record, you can download a blank and print out pages yourself. I don't believe that they include a bound book or a personal firearms record book in the package as I bought mine. I don't think that 03 license holders are required to have a personal firearms record book, but it's handy to have a record of all of your non C&R firearms in one place. That way if something is lost or stolen, you have all the information you need in one place.

I can't access a lot of the sites I found in a quick Google search, but if you do one, you should be able to find out all sorts of information.

 

[vellnueve]

I'll defer to the opinions of those who haven't had an inspection since their insights are obviously much more accurate than those of someone who has been inspected within the past 24 hours. Here is a patented Scrivener eye roll for you.

I wasn't saying that it was specifically driven by Coakley. What I'm saying is that she would love for C&R holders to drop like flies because they don't want to deal with paperwork.

 

[Garys]

I wasn't saying that it was specifically driven by Coakley. What I'm saying is that she would love for C&R holders to drop like flies because they don't want to deal with paperwork.

No doubt she would. However, I wasn't directing my comments to you, as your comments are pretty reasonable.

Compliance inspections are a condition of licensing, so anyone that has a C&R should keep their records in order in the event of an inspection.

Of course if they were to inspect MilSurps4Me's collection, they'd need those 10 inspectors they used at Smith and Wesson! Or more.

 

[dwarven1]

the inspector was an incredibly good actress.

But was she hot? And did she wear jackboots?

 

[Garys]

But was she hot? And did she wear jackboots?

She was attractive, but I wouldn't say hot. Not like an ATF agent would be on a TV show. No, she wore regular shoes.

 

[jdubois]

ATF has an "out of business" division, although I don't remember if that's what they call it. You have to send your bound book to them if you give up your license. You also have to close out the disposition of each acquisition by noting that you transfered the weapon to yourself. The ATF keeps those records.

This is not true for an 03 FFL. You do not have to close out your bound book, and you do not have to send it to them. You simply cease your collection activity (and notify ATF if it is before your license expiration date) and you may destroy your bound book if you so desire. If you get a new 03 FFL, you start from scratch.

You can buy them, you can do them as an electronic record, you can download a blank and print out pages yourself.

You cannot keep an 'electronic' bound book without prior ATF permission.

 

[depicts]

Tell me, do you know ANY dealer that will sell a non-C&R eligible firearm to an 03 FFL holder? I sure don't. I tend to doubt that there are enough sales like that to make it worth BATF's time to go on a wild-goose chase like that.

If anything, I've found the exact opposite.

I've tried to buy a S&W M&P 1905 .38 that was 102 years old at the time as a C&R purchase.

The dealer would NOT sell it to me aas a C&R gun. It wasn't explicitly on the list.

I bought the gun the same way I would a modern, wonder 9 semi-auto, pistol permit, paperwork, NICS check... the whole ball of wax.

That has been my experience several times.

 

[vellnueve]

Compliance inspections are a condition of licensing, so anyone that has a C&R should keep their records in order in the event of an inspection.

And the only such record required would be the bound book, and the firearms themselves (plus any C&R ammo or oddities, etc), correct?

 

[Garys]

This is not true for an 03 FFL. You do not have to close out your bound book, and you do not have to send it to them. You simply cease your collection activity (and notify ATF if it is before your license expiration date) and you may destroy your bound book if you so desire. If you get a new 03 FFL, you start from scratch.

I'll go with what the ATF inspector told me, if you don't mind.

 

[Garys]

And the only such record required would be the bound book, and the firearms themselves (plus any C&R ammo or oddities, etc), correct?

I don't know that there is such a thing as "C&R ammo". It seems that ammo is ammo, even if it's obsolete. At least I've never needed to present my 03 to buy ammo only.

If you sell to another 03, you need to have signed copy of their license too. Ideally, if you buy from an 01, you should have their FFL number. Interestingly, only two of the 01s I've bought from using my C&R provided that on their invoices.

 

[vellnueve]

I believe that the list has several types of oddball ammo that qualify as C&R.

Edit: Here's the list. I'm not sure it has any relevance anymore.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/sec1.htm

 

[Garys]

I believe that the list has several types of oddball ammo that qualify as C&R.

Edit: Here's the list. I'm not sure it has any relevance anymore.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/sec1.htm

That's interesting. I don't know if it has relevance anymore either. I'm not even sure what the point is of having the list. If I try to buy pre 1945 .445 ACP, is that somehow different than post 1945 ammo? Other than the historic value, such as Nazi marked ammo which isn't all that likely to be fired.

 

[vellnueve]

Yeah, just saying it exists is all...

 

[jdubois]

I'll go with what the ATF inspector told me, if you don't mind.

Sure, by all means, follow what the guy with the clipboard said. But 27 CFR § 478.127 (which the ATF inspector was referring to) does not apply to collectors. Read it yourself.

I don't know that there is such a thing as "C&R ammo".

There used to be, but ammo hasn't been needed to be classified as C&R since the GCA passed in '86.