Compliance Inspection

[Garys]

I got a voice mail from someone from the Boston office of the BATFE. As part of my C&R renewal process they need to do a "compliance exam". Has anyone else ever had this?

I'm just trying to figure out what to expect. I have all my records in order, at least it seems so.

 

[vellnueve]

They pull it on some people, probably randomly. Just make sure your books are in order. They'll probably let you bring the books into their office.

 

[theGringo]

They pull it on some people, probably randomly. Just make sure your books are in order. They'll probably let you bring the books into their office.

I had a "compliance inspection" when I had an FFL01. They usually want to come to the licensed premises and see the hardware as well as the paperwork.

In any event, do be certain that everything is ... in compliance.

 

[Mil-Dot]

You have the option of scheduling the C&R compliance check outside of your home. Just call to make the appointment. You may have to bring your C&R items with you (along with your records) but it sure is better than having them come to your home.
Mil-Dot

 

[Garys]

Thanks. I have a pretty small number of items purchased with my C&R. A good number of C&R eligible items were purchased from FFLs or in once case FTF. All of the state paperwork was done, I've kept my bound book and personal firearms record book current. I don't foresee any problems, really. I just wanted to ask if anyone else had had the experience.

 

[doobie]

You have the option of scheduling the C&R compliance check outside of your home. Just call to make the appointment. You may have to bring your C&R items with you (along with your records) but it sure is better than having them come to your home.
Mil-Dot

How can they require you to bring your C&R items with you? AFAIK the closest one to me is in Boston. The BATFE couldn't give me a letter signed by the President of the United States of America to get me to bring my C&Rs into Boston. I was always told for a C&R they only want to see the records.

If they ever bring up a inspection on me and it has to be at my house, I hope it is on the coldest day of the year and I'm going to make them stand in the middle of my lawn doing their business.

 

[vellnueve]

I had a "compliance inspection" when I had an FFL01. They usually want to come to the licensed premises and see the hardware as well as the paperwork.

In any event, do be certain that everything is ... in compliance.

Disagree. When my dad got a compliance inspection with his FF01, they did come to the premises, but didn't look at the guns, just the book.

 

[vellnueve]

You may have to bring your C&R items with you (along with your records) but it sure is better than having them come to your home.
Mil-Dot

Wrong, if they do it at the ATF office they just want to see the books. It's a records check, not a firearms check.

 

[theGringo]

Disagree. When my dad got a compliance inspection with his FF01, they did come to the premises, but didn't look at the guns, just the book.

I guess they gave me "the treatment". The ATF agent even brought a Worcester cop with hime, which was considered a very controversial move at that time.

 

[Len-2A Training]

01 compliance checks are VERY different from 03 compliance checks, at least in theory.

01s get inspected at their BUSINESS location. 03s have the option of requesting it be done at the BATFE office.

So, unless they are looking for something very specific (e.g. stolen gun, questionable source of gun, etc.) they likely will do a records only check at their local office.

 

[pduthely]

This afternoon I receive a call from an agent from my local ATF office. However, it sounds like I am not the only one that got the call from the Boston ATF office. He wants to come and inspect the premises for compliance. I have the ‘Firearms Acquisition and Disposition record book’ and a safe that currently houses my normal handguns. But haven’t purchase any C&R firearms as of yet. Therefore, I will be showing him an empty book. In addition, must I show him my non C&R firearms?
Thanks in advance,

 

[Garys]

This afternoon I receive a call from an agent from my local ATF office. However, it sounds like I am not the only one that got the call from the Boston ATF office. He wants to come and inspect the premises for compliance. I have the ‘Firearms Acquisition and Disposition record book’ and a safe that currently houses my normal handguns. But haven’t purchase any C&R firearms as of yet. Therefore, I will be showing him an empty book. In addition, must I show him my non C&R firearms?
Thanks in advance,

Not from what I was told today. They want to see the records and match them to the C&R purchases only.

 

[pduthely]

Not from what I was told today. They want to see the records and match them to the C&R purchases only.

Thank you

 

[jdubois]

While they may simply ask for the records, 27 CFR § 478.23 does give them the right to inspect "records, documents, firearms, and ammunition".

 

[pduthely]

Okay, does that only apply to C&R firearms? I have nothing to hide, but the only reason that this compliance inspection is needed is because I hold a 03 FFL license. However, I have NOT acquired any C&R firearms to date… so I believe he will be looking at an empty book and my 03 FFL license if necessary. Its bad enough I have to explain to my wife that an ATF agent is coming to the house for an inspection.

 

[jdubois]

Yes, it applies only to C&R firearms. If you have never acquired any, then you are correct, they will be looking at an empty bound book and that's it. They have no right to look at anything that does not pertain to your C&R FFL, including any other firearms you may or may not have. As others have mentioned, they don't even have the right to come into your home, as you may elect to have the audit at the closest ATF field office.

 

[News Shooter]

So if they want to see your C & R firearms, how do you handle that by going to them?

 

[Garys]

Yes, it applies only to C&R firearms. If you have never acquired any, then you are correct, they will be looking at an empty bound book and that's it. They have no right to look at anything that does not pertain to your C&R FFL, including any other firearms you may or may not have. As others have mentioned, they don't even have the right to come into your home, as you may elect to have the audit at the closest ATF field office.

Except that would require you to bring firearms into a federal building, which you can't do. I believe they do have the right to come into your home since that is the "premises" listed on the license. As I was told they don't care about any firearms purchased from a FFL or FTF that do not involve the C&R.

The FFL 01 compliance inspection is far more detailed, but they use the same forms for both.

I'll know more later in the week, when my inspection is done.

 

[News Shooter]

Except that would require you to bring firearms into a federal building, which you can't do. I believe they do have the right to come into your home since that is the "premises" listed on the license.

Yes, that was exactly my point. I'm not comfortable allowing a federal agent into my house for any reason without a lawyer and a warrant. That seems to be a recipe for trouble

 

[Garys]

Yes, that was exactly my point. I'm not comfortable allowing a federal agent into my house for any reason without a lawyer and a warrant. That seems to be a recipe for trouble

They don't need a warrant to do a license inspection. It's a condition of the license. However, I don't think that means that they can wander around your house looking at stuff. They can see the books and they can see the C&R firearms. On the phone she didn't seem interested in seeing anything else.

 

[News Shooter]

Please keep us posted on what happens..thanks

 

[theGringo]

They don't need a warrant to do a license inspection. It's a condition of the license. However, I don't think that means that they can wander around your house looking at stuff. They can see the books and they can see the C&R firearms. On the phone she didn't seem interested in seeing anything else.

Good point. I was specifically forewarned that during my FFL01 inspection that they WOULD be curious about the layout of the house, and they were. The ATF agent asked what was behind each of the closed doors.

I had one room dedicated to business and that was ALL they got to see. Of course, I did offer coffee. They declined.

My inspection came during the Clinton-Reno crackdown on kitchen table dealers. The kid (skinny kid with pimples) from the Hartford field office told me I was in violation of local zoning ordinances and asked me to hand in my license. I declined, saying I'd pursue a variance through Worcester City Hall.

We all wondered back then why the federal government was getting involved in local zoning enforcement ...

I began that ZBA process and then, a couple of nights later I was awakened by cop flashlights shining through the windows. Some cops investingating a report of a "domestic disturbance". Uh huh...

Long story short, I gave up the license a short time later.

But I'm sure the new administration is not gearing up to eliminate FFL03s ... yet.

 

[Garys]

Please keep us posted on what happens..thanks

I will, but only if I get more than one phone call!

 

[Garys]

Good point. I was specifically forewarned that during my FFL01 inspection that they WOULD be curious about the layout of the house, and they were. The ATF agent asked what was behind each of the closed doors...

But I'm sure the new administration is not gearing up to eliminate FFL03s ... yet.

I got the distinct impression that this was far less rigorous than an 01 inspection. As to the new administration, I'm not so sure that this is high on their list of priorities. Once he gets the economy fixed, the terrorists, China, Russia, Venezuela, and assorted other riff raff under control, then he can worry about my historic antique collection.

 

[jdubois]

Except that would require you to bring firearms into a federal building, which you can't do.

Possession of firearms at an ATF office at the specific request of an ATF agent would clearly fall under the definition of "other lawful purposes" in 18 USC 44 § 930(3), and would absolutely be allowed.

I believe they do have the right to come into your home since that is the "premises" listed on the license..

Nope. From § 478.23, which I cited before:

"At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in closest proximity to the collectors premises."

 

[theGringo]

I got the distinct impression that this was far less rigorous than an 01 inspection. As to the new administration, I'm not so sure that this is high on their list of priorities. Once he gets the economy fixed, the terrorists, China, Russia, Venezuela, and assorted other riff raff under control, then he can worry about my historic antique collection.

Sure. I'm sure you're right. He'd never throw a bone to the left on his social/domestic policies as a distraction from his more centrist foreign policy.

ATF is prob'ly just sharpening their knives for when that time DOES come.

 

[Garys]

Possession of firearms at an ATF office at the specific request of an ATF agent would clearly fall under the definition of "other lawful purposes" in 18 USC 44 § 930(3), and would absolutely be allowed.




Nope. From § 478.23, which I cited before:

"At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in closest proximity to the collectors premises."

Sure, I can see someone like MilSurps4Me locking each of his rifles up and carting them up to the Tip O'Neil building. Like that's practical.

Really, some people.

 

[News Shooter]

Sure, I can see someone like MilSurps4Me locking each of his rifles up and carting them up to the Tip O'Neil building. Like that's practical.

Really, some people.

Exactly, how far do you think you'd get across Government Center Plaza carrying gun cases?

 

[Garys]

Exactly, how far do you think you'd get across Government Center Plaza carrying gun cases?

I'd make it all the way if I marked them "Free Condoms for the Needy" or "Free needles for addicts". But I digress.

ATF is at the O'Neil building next to the Garden, but your point is still valid.

 

[jdubois]

Sure, I can see someone like MilSurps4Me locking each of his rifles up and carting them up to the Tip O'Neil building. Like that's practical.

Really, some people.

<shrug> I'm only correcting the information people are giving here. First, they can ask to see your guns as well as your bound book. Second, they are not allowed to enter your house without a warrant, unless you give them permission. And third, you are legally able to take your guns to an ATF field office.