Compliance Inspection

[vellnueve]

Yes, that was exactly my point. I'm not comfortable allowing a federal agent into my house for any reason without a lawyer and a warrant. That seems to be a recipe for trouble

If you already have any sort of FFL, you have already forfeited the right to prevent them from looking at your guns and records... so you'd have to cart all your guns downtown.

 

[News Shooter]

I'd make it all the way if I marked them "Free Condoms for the Needy" or "Free needles for addicts". But I digress.

ATF is at the O'Neil building next to the Garden, but your point is still valid.

Yeah..I tend to get mixed up about which worthless buildings named after fat bastards are in downtown Boston

 

[Garys]

Yeah..I tend to get mixed up about which worthless buildings named after fat bastards are in downtown Boston

Your confusion is understandable.

 

[Garys]

So since the OP has made zero purchases on his C+R what are they going to inspect?

I'm the OP, I've made purchases. The other person who got called regarding and inspection hasn't made purchases, but the ATF can still look at his book.

 

[vellnueve]

They'll look at the book, and at his license... Might they consider it improper that he acquired the license for collecting C&Rs but has not done so?

 

[pduthely]

They'll look at the book, and at his license... Might they consider it improper that he acquired the license for collecting C&Rs but has not done so?

I only received my 03 FFL License in May of 08. I am waiting for the correct item to begin my collection. I do not want my first purchase to be just anything.

 

[dwarven1]

They don't need a warrant to do a license inspection. It's a condition of the license. However, I don't think that means that they can wander around your house looking at stuff. They can see the books and they can see the C&R firearms. On the phone she didn't seem interested in seeing anything else.

She? Hey, let us know if she's hot. That whole jackboots on a female thing... ooh.

 

[lrdwilder]

This is an intersting thread....I just received my C&R about 2 weeks ago...I haven't orderd a bound book yet, or ordered anything yet for that matter...So I suppose an empty 3 ring binder would be ok? If I got called?

 

[vellnueve]

Print out one of the many sheets that are out there and have it in a binder, blank.

 

[Mil-Dot]

You have the option of scheduling the C&R compliance check outside of your home. Just call to make the appointment. You may have to bring your C&R items with you (along with your records) but it sure is better than having them come to your home.
Mil-Dot

Wrong, if they do it at the ATF office they just want to see the books. It's a records check, not a firearms check.

Section 178.23 Right of entry and examination. (c) ... of any licensed collector for the purposes of inspecting or examining the records, documents, firearms, and ammunition ... At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in the closest proximity to the collector's premises.

 

[vellnueve]

That's weird, three members within the span of a week are getting checked...

 

[jdubois]

That's weird, three members within the span of a week are getting checked...

Yeah, I was thinking the same. From not hearing about anybody ever getting audited to having three people in a short time span. Somebody at ATF must have a bee in their bonnet.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I also think this is less than a coincidence.

Considering that one hasn't even bought anything, I'm getting a feeling that EOPS might be behind this (putting pressure on BATFE to do audits) to "flush" many of the 03s just like they did the 01s some years ago.

AAR should be enlightening.

I wish all three well.

 

[terraformer]

Yeah, I was thinking the same. From not hearing about anybody ever getting audited to having three people in a short time span. Somebody at ATF must have a bee in their bonnet.

Red flags for me went off on one, by three I was in full paranoia mode. I bet they are looking for people circumventing the list as Lens just mentioned. It would be good for all of our members who get "chosen" to report back on what they ask about. Then maybe we can figure out what they are looking to accomplish with these checks.

 

[Mike-Mike]

<~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Nervous

 

[drgrant]

I'm not. It's probably just some REMF at BATFE wanting the field office to meet its quota for inspections, and whoever is responsible for doing them is probably just picking a bunch of people at random to satisfy that. I'd bet that there are even a bunch of BATFE agents/examiners that, off the record, probably think that doing compliance checks of C+R holders is mostly a waste of time.

I'm generally suspicious of BATFE, too.. don't get me wrong- but what can they really find? Unless some guy shows up with a BB that's filled with cat scribbles or something...

-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

I'm not. It's probably just some REMF at BATFE wanting the field office to meet its quota for inspections, and whoever is responsible for doing them is probably just picking a bunch of people at random to satisfy that. I'd bet that there are even a bunch of BATFE agents/examiners that, off the record, probably think that doing compliance checks of C+R holders is mostly a waste of time.

I'm generally suspicious of BATFE, too.. don't get me wrong- but what can they really find? Unless some guy shows up with a BB that's filled with cat scribbles or something...
-Mike

HEY!! Don't pick on my handwriting!

 

[clinotus]

The good thing about the sudden rash of compliance checks is that I am sure they have prompted everyone else reading about the request to make sure that their own books have the T's properly crossbarred and the I's stemmed.

 

[dwarven1]

I bet they are looking for people circumventing the list as Lens just mentioned.

Sorry, what? What list? the EOPS list? What are you talking about? The C&R FFL has nothing to do with the EOPS list. I think that the "flushing" that LenS was talking about was when they purged the so-called "kitchen table" FFLs so that there were fewer FFLs in MA by using that "business premises" crap.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Don't get your panties in a twist, guys. Remember that when you buy any FFL, you agree, for better or worse, to get into bed with the feds. I have had 01 and 07 audits which went well because my books and inventory were in order. That's what they want. They don't want to discover issues that will make work for them. Read the regs and conform. Last year I had the 07 audit and was told that they were doing manufacturers at the time. The inspector told me that they had just done S&W. 10 inspectors, 4 days, 85,000 serial numbers. Yours won't take that long. Now is probably the time to do 03's. Jack.

 

[massgun]

I just posted a thread in the "general" forum about a call from ATF wanting to do a compliance check on my 03 license. I was not at home for the call so called back and got the lady's voice mail and left a message to call me back. Somehow my search on the subject missed this thread.

I don't really want them in my house, but I also don't really want to go to Boston, especially if I have to bring my C&R purchases (2). I guess I will just wait for the call and see what exactly they want me to do.

It is interesting that several of us with C&R licenses are getting this call. I think it would be a good idea to start a thread concerning our "compliance check experience". Also, just wondering if the other guys got the call from the Boston office, was the person's name "Christine"?

Update!
I just got the call back from Christine Kent. My inspection will occur Tuesday the ninth at my home and she will be the one doing the inspection. It will consist of verifying the bound book entries against my "inventory" and then some sort of interview and finally going over some of the more important rules and regulations. I intend to have the records and the two C&R firearms on the kitchen table prior to her arrival and will not volunteer any additional info as to storage or anything else. I will post my experience immediately after.

 

[vellnueve]

I'm not. It's probably just some REMF at BATFE wanting the field office to meet its quota for inspections, and whoever is responsible for doing them is probably just picking a bunch of people at random to satisfy that. I'd bet that there are even a bunch of BATFE agents/examiners that, off the record, probably think that doing compliance checks of C+R holders is mostly a waste of time.

I agree that's probably the case, but it's still odd. Then again, they're probably not doing them en masse since probably 50% or more of the active membership here has C&Rs.

The good thing about the sudden rash of compliance checks is that I am sure they have prompted everyone else reading about the request to make sure that their own books have the T's properly crossbarred and the I's stemmed.

Yep, I went through my book this morning to double check things. It's pretty messy because my handwriting is pretty shit when i'm in a hurry.

 

[terraformer]

Sorry, what? What list? the EOPS list? What are you talking about? The C&R FFL has nothing to do with the EOPS list. I think that the "flushing" that LenS was talking about was when they purged the so-called "kitchen table" FFLs so that there were fewer FFLs in MA by using that "business premises" crap.

As in order firearms that are not on the list, and doing it through their C&R, but that were not C&R eligible, hence going around the list. Why did they purge the kitchen table FFLs? Not the reason stated, but the real reason? Because they were getting privileges that private citizens weren't getting. I would be highly surprised if MA government wonks were happy with people being able to potentially circumvent the local crap system here including ammo buys, etc.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

As in order firearms that are not on the list, and doing it through their C&R, but that were not C&R eligible, hence going around the list. Why did they purge the kitchen table FFLs? Not the reason stated, but the real reason? Because they were getting privileges that private citizens weren't getting. I would be highly surprised if MA government wonks were happy with people being able to potentially circumvent the local crap system here including ammo buys, etc.

It was Bill Clinton who told ATF to reduce the number of gun dealers. So, they looked into zoning, state compliance, business cetificates, etc. They reduced the FFL's from about 270,000 to about 90,000. I suspect that ATF would want lots of dealers since that makes work for them and justifies their existance. Jack.

 

[dwarven1]

As in order firearms that are not on the list, and doing it through their C&R, but that were not C&R eligible, hence going around the list.

Tell me, do you know ANY dealer that will sell a non-C&R eligible firearm to an 03 FFL holder? I sure don't. I tend to doubt that there are enough sales like that to make it worth BATF's time to go on a wild-goose chase like that.

 

[jdubois]

Tell me, do you know ANY dealer that will sell a non-C&R eligible firearm to an 03 FFL holder? I sure don't.

I think even beyond not selling them, a great many 01 FFLs would pick up the phone to ATF and report the attempt pretty quick.

 

[terraformer]

It was Bill Clinton who told ATF to reduce the number of gun dealers. So, they looked into zoning, state compliance, business cetificates, etc. They reduced the FFL's from about 270,000 to about 90,000. I suspect that ATF would want lots of dealers since that makes work for them and justifies their existance. Jack.

Right, so the Clinton administration clearly had an ulterior motive, which I am concerned with being at play here.

Tell me, do you know ANY dealer that will sell a non-C&R eligible firearm to an 03 FFL holder? I sure don't. I tend to doubt that there are enough sales like that to make it worth BATF's time to go on a wild-goose chase like that.

I think even beyond not selling them, a great many 01 FFLs would pick up the phone to ATF and report the attempt pretty quick.

Well, assuming that everyone has a strict interpretation of what C&R eligible means, there is the little thing about the C&R getting inet vendors to do things they wouldn't otherwise do like ship ammo, discounts, etc. Maybe I am wrong, but I can't help but think there may be something more to this. Although Jack's bit earlier about it just being a phase does pass the "simplest explanation is the right one" test so let's hope.

 

[vellnueve]

I haven't seen a C&R vendor make an exception on ammo for MA C&R holders.

As for discounts, they know that C&R holders tend to buy a lot more stuff, thus the appeal. That's pure marketing, nothing else.

 

[dwarven1]

Well, assuming that everyone has a strict interpretation of what C&R eligible means, there is the little thing about the C&R getting inet vendors to do things they wouldn't otherwise do like ship ammo, discounts, etc. Maybe I am wrong, but I can't help but think there may be something more to this. Although Jack's bit earlier about it just being a phase does pass the "simplest explanation is the right one" test so let's hope.

So? How is a compliance inspection going to turn up crufflers who use the C&R for discounts and buying ammo?

I really think you're reading too much into this. From what I hear the BATF just got spanked over the Red's Trading Post issue (apparently the judge asked the BATF attorney why he should be worried about paperwork issues at Red's when the BATF loses guns and laptops with sensitive data at over twice the rate of other federal agencies, and when he didn't get a good answer, tossed the case out of court), so they may be scrambling to look good to the new administration.

 

[terraformer]

So? How is a compliance inspection going to turn up crufflers who use the C&R for discounts and buying ammo?

I really think you're reading too much into this. From what I hear the BATF just got spanked over the Red's Trading Post issue (apparently the judge asked the BATF attorney why he should be worried about paperwork issues at Red's when the BATF loses guns and laptops with sensitive data at over twice the rate of other federal agencies, and when he didn't get a good answer, tossed the case out of court), so they may be scrambling to look good to the new administration.

I hope I am wrong and Jack is right.