Community defense

[Scrivener]

See, we don't need guns. The presence of fellow citizens will prevent harm:

Store video shows shoppers step over dying stabbing victim

By ROXANA HEGEMAN
Associated Press
Posted July 3 2007, 4:02 PM EDT

WICHITA, Kan. -- As stabbing victim LaShanda Calloway lay dying on the floor of a convenience store, five shoppers, including one who stopped to take a picture of her with a cell phone, stepped over the woman, police said.

The June 23 situation, captured on the store's surveillance video, got scant news coverage until a columnist for The Wichita Eagle disclosed the existence of the video and its contents Tuesday.



LocalLinks
Police have refused to release the video, saying it is part of their investigation.

``It was tragic to watch,'' police spokesman Gordon Bassham said Tuesday. ``The fact that people were more interested in taking a picture with a cell phone and shopping for snacks rather than helping this innocent young woman is, frankly, revolting.''

The woman was stabbed during an altercation that was not part of a robbery, Bassham said. It took about two minutes for someone to call 911, he said.

Calloway, 27, died later at a hospital.

Two suspects have been arrested. A 19-year-old woman was charged with first-degree murder. Another suspect who turned himself in had not been charged as of Tuesday, the Sedgwick County prosecutor's office said.

The district attorney's office will have to decide whether any of the shoppers could be charged, Bassham said.

It was uncertain what law, if any, would be applicable. A state statute for failure to render aid refers only to victims of a car accident.

Eagle columnist Mark McCormick told The Associated Press he learned about the video when he called Wichita Police Chief Norman Williams to inquire about a phone call he had received from a reader complaining about a Police Department policy that requires emergency medical personnel to wait until police secure a crime scene before rendering aid. McCormick said Williams then unloaded on him about the shoppers in the stabbing case.

``This is just appalling,'' Williams told the newspaper. ``I could continue shopping and not render aid and then take time out to take a picture? That's crazy. What happened to our respect for life?''

 

[JonJ]

What happened to our respect for life?''

And that about sums it all up.

 

[pipmaster1971]

Sick!!!

 

[Mikey]

Welcome to the Jungle!

 

[Chris]

Great. Now they will feel the need to make it a crime to fail to report a crime.

 

[sksguns]

Make up your mind....do you want citizens to help or not?

If she was about to be stabbed and I pulled my gun and shot the perp I would be in jail. Now people do exactly what the government and LEO's want and now they are in trouble. This is BS!!!

Taking the picture might have been a bit over the top but I don't see how it's illegal...reported and photographers do it all the time.

 

[FeeBear]

Make up your mind....do you want citizens to help or not?

If she was about to be stabbed and I pulled my gun and shot the perp I would be in jail. Now people do exactly what the government and LEO's want and now they are in trouble. This is BS!!!

Taking the picture might have been a bit over the top but I don't see how it's illegal...reported and photographers do it all the time.

I guess common sense and charity and compassion [sad2] are the first to die...

Fee

 

[FeeBear]

Great. Now they will feel the need to make it a crime to fail to report a crime.

It shouldn't be a crime but it is the sign of the times.

Fee

 

[rscalzo]

If she was about to be stabbed and I pulled my gun and shot the perp I would be in jail. Now people do exactly what the government and LEO's want and now they are in trouble. This is BS!!!

I find it somewhat odd that you are dending the actions of these people. Are you saying you support the fact that they just went about their business and didn't take the timer to place one FREE call. In addition, where do you come up with the idea that "this is exactly what the government and law enforcement want". How on earth did you ever come to that determination?

 

[Scrivener]

Make up your mind....do you want citizens to help or not?

If she was about to be stabbed and I pulled my gun and shot the perp I would be in jail. Now people do exactly what the government and LEO's want and now they are in trouble. This is BS!!!

Taking the picture might have been a bit over the top but I don't see how it's illegal...reported and photographers do it all the time.

I don't know if you've missed the point or are willfully misstating it. From the top:

1. False comparison. NO ARMED RESPONSE is even alluded to, still less discussed. There is a legal, emotional and intellectual chasm between the use of deadly force to protect a third person (and nothing in the story suggests anyone other than the participants even SAW the attack) and helping an injured person AFTERWARDS. Grasp that distinction before lecturing us on how your hands are somehow tied.

2. No-one is "in trouble." I know of no law in this country that requires one to aid another if one is not related, contractually obligated or the cause of the injury in question. Europe has laws requiring people to render aid at traffic accidents, etc.; the US in general does not. This state does, but only for such accidents:

A state statute for failure to render aid refers only to victims of a car accident.

3. No-one said taking the photo was illegal. As it was in an area open to the public, I doubt that a civil suit for invasion of privacy could even be brought.

Got all that? Good.

Now we can agree that, while not illegal, the actions of those 5 people were reprehensible. I could make further observations, but they would be very short of a factual foundation and egregiously "politically incorrect...."

 

[dwarven1]

There is no penalty that could be levied, I don't think. But I do think that the police should just release the video - I suspect that their friends and neighbors would give them enough sh*t for their (lack of) actions that they'd learn a lesson. Maybe.

That said, I couldn't possibly do that. While I've forgotten most (if not all) of my EMT training, at the least I'd be dialing 911 for an ambulance and staying with her and trying to comfort her. Hmm... I always carry a bandana in my pocket, and I've had to replace it a few times because it got used as a triangle bandage, now that I think about it...

 

[rscalzo]

The video has been released today or at least portions of it.

 

[kevin9]

I don't know if you've missed the point or are willfully misstating it. From the top:...

+1 Scrivener!

2. No-one is "in trouble." I know of no law in this country that requires one to aid another if one is not related, contractually obligated or the cause of the injury in question. Europe has laws requiring people to render aid at traffic accidents, etc.; the US in general does not. This state does, but only for such accidents:

IANAL, but AFAIK there are "Good Samaritan" laws in many (most?, all?) that protect one rendering aid from frivolous legal action. IMNSHO there is no excuse for such abhorrent behavior.

 

[Ripach]

The inexcusable actions of these sub-humans is a sad commentary on our society as a whole. Just like many of this nation's youth see no problem with taking a life (gangs, drugs, etc.), they see no value in saving a life either. Sad but true.

 

[Arioch]

Sounds like the Kitty Genovese incident in NYC.

 

[EddieCoyle]

As a general rule, people suck. Present company excluded of course.

 

[Jaxon]

As a general rule, people suck. Present company excluded of course.

Thanks Eddie.

Taking the Devil's Advocate side ... ... and we've discussed this many times in the past... most people don't have a clue what to do in this situation. And fewer still have the where with all to take action.

And then we have the spector of blood pathogens..

So, all things being equal.. what did you really expect them to do?

 

[TonyD]

Society is reaping what it has sewn.

 

[Scrivener]

Taking the Devil's Advocate side ... ... and we've discussed this many times in the past... most people don't have a clue what to do in this situation. And fewer still have the to take action.

And then we have the spector [sic] of blood pathogens..

So, all things being equal.. what did you really expect them to do?

1. Alert the store staff;

2. Use the cell phone to call the police and/or an ambulance; and

3. Cordon her off so she isn't being stepped on/over in her final moments.

Now just what advanced knowledge, sophisticated technology and other "where with all" is required to achieve those minimal objectives?

 

[sksguns]

I neither approve nor disapprove of their actions....I have no idea how old or young those people were. What bothers me is that the authorities automatically look for laws that may have been broken to bring charges against even more people for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

For someone to help or not is a personal decision and it's not for me to impose my personal beliefs on others. I can only control what I do and I don't think there should be laws against people who don't share my same beliefs.

Unless one of them was a doctor they weren't going to save her life. If paramedics were notfied 2 minutes earlier would her chances of survival been gauranteed? Would they have been better? maybe....but I doubt anyone could gaurantee she would have lived after suffering those wounds.

Some people are scared to get involved and are afraid of doing more harm. Whatever the reason it's for them to live with. Lets not make criminals out of people for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

A lot of poeple out here have military training and are into survival tactics. Some probably have taken CPR and other life saving classes or had such training in the military.

We don't know the backgrounds of these people or if they felt qualified to help.

The phone call should have been obvious but how old was the person who had the cell phone? Maybe the store personal already new. There is a lot we still don't know.

 

[JonJ]

Definition of Useless Member of Society:
Any person who steps over or around another who is bleeding to death to get a package of Ho-Ho's and can of Yoohoo.

 

[KMaurer]

Society is reaping what it has sewn.

+1

When everything devolves into a question of what's mandated or what's prohibited, rather than simple right or wrong, we're already well on our way to complete chaos or despotism, depending on which way the last domino falls. "Ooooh! I might get in trouble or catch a disease." Gee, maybe we should have thought of that sort of sensible stuff before we ran out under fire to get our wounded to cover. And I'll be that corpsmen today wouldn't risk getting themselves contaminated by somebody else's blood or by giving CPR without a clean shield.

Watching out for your own safety is important, but it's not the only thing. As a great Rabbi once wrote, "if I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I?" I think everybody here has the first part down pretty well; maybe it's time more of us started thinking about the second part.

Yeah, all that's easy for me to say, since I'm already an old fart who somehow managed to survive this long and who's wife is taken care of and who's kids are all grown and on their own. OTOH, if I'd had to spend the past 40 years ignoring people who needed my help and just "watching out for #1", I probably would have drunk myself to death or eaten my gun a long time ago. Of course, YMMV.

Ken

 

[FeeBear]

+1

When everything devolves into a question of what's mandated or what's prohibited, rather than simple right or wrong, we're already well on our way to complete chaos or despotism, depending on which way the last domino falls. "Ooooh! I might get in trouble or catch a disease." Gee, maybe we should have thought of that sort of sensible stuff before we ran out under fire to get our wounded to cover. And I'll be that corpsmen today wouldn't risk getting themselves contaminated by somebody else's blood or by giving CPR without a clean shield.

Watching out for your own safety is important, but it's not the only thing. As a great Rabbi once wrote, "if I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I?" I think everybody here has the first part down pretty well; maybe it's time more of us started thinking about the second part.

Yeah, all that's easy for me to say, since I'm already an old fart who somehow managed to survive this long and who's wife is taken care of and who's kids are all grown and on their own. OTOH, if I'd had to spend the past 40 years ignoring people who needed my help and just "watching out for #1", I probably would have drunk myself to death or eaten my gun a long time ago. Of course, YMMV.

Ken

+1000 Ken

I know I couldn't have said any better my friend. Could those people have saved her life, no one knows. Could those people haved help her or at least comfort her, of course.

We are a nation capable of great compassion, last year we broke all sorts of records for charity (donations WorldWide). Yet it is the little things like helping an old lady crossing the street, hold the door open for someone, help someone on the highway with a flat tire that are truly important. I believe if even a small group of us do a good deed it gets passed on. Then again I might be a naive 36yo.

Fee

 

[matt]

that really makes me sad... it's one thing to say "society is going down the toilet", but to see this... we're already in the sewer.

God save us from ourselves...

 

[calsdad]

WARNING: Non PC response to follow.

The fact that people would just step over and ignore somebody who lay dying on the floor is the inevitable result of what happens when you indoctrinate people in the belief that they are not responsible for their own actions and that the government or some other entity will take care of you. Add that into the fact that in todays society it is entirely possible to get sued for trying to help somebody if you do so and make some type of mistake, and the fact that politicians and police are always trying to get civilians to not interfere in situations where "professionals need to be in charge" and this is what you get.

You reap what you sow.

Educate and indoctrinate people to be ignorant, dependent, scared, uncaring morons and guess what - they will be.

There are certain segments of our society that have been subjected to the abuse from overreaching government programs and meddling "do gooders" far more and far longer than other segments. It is in these segments of our society where you see the worst rates of divorce, out of wedlock childbirth, disease, welfare dependency, and dependence on other "social" programs. It has also been found by social scientists that all of the ills that affect our society hit first and worst among this part of our society - and then move into other parts of the society. So what you see happening to this woman out in Wisconsin now - will sooner or later be happening to some other woman out here. It's just a matter of time. And it is all a result of all of us believing just a little too much in the governments ability to fix any of our problems - instead of fixing them ourselves.

Welcome to socialism - all your problems will be solved.

 

[Jaxon]

1. Alert the store staff;

2. Use the cell phone to call the police and/or an ambulance; and

3. Cordon her off so she isn't being stepped on/over in her final moments.

Now just what advanced knowledge, sophisticated technology and other "where with all" is required to achieve those minimal objectives?

You're applying logic where none exists. Nothing says the store staff wasn't alerted. Who called 911? Someone did.

"Cordon her off"? Yes, to the thinking.. but again, you put regular people in a situation where few have ever or will ever be. Its not surprising they reacted in character.

 

[dwarven1]

WARNING: Non PC response to follow.

The fact that people would just step over and ignore somebody who lay dying on the floor is the inevitable result of what happens when you indoctrinate people in the belief that they are not responsible for their own actions and that the government or some other entity will take care of you. Add that into the fact that in todays society it is entirely possible to get sued for trying to help somebody if you do so and make some type of mistake, and the fact that politicians and police are always trying to get civilians to not interfere in situations where "professionals need to be in charge" and this is what you get.

I just finished a science fiction book (The Weapon, by Michael Z. Williams) set about 4-500 years in the future, with the UN in charge of planet Earth and the society is EXACTLY what you're describing. It's an interesting read, and I found myself wondering if this Mr Williams has been reading NES... many of the themes that he talks about we talk about here.

And yes, I can see society heading that way, too. I'm not blind, and I'm not stupid. I can read the handwriting on the wall.

 

[calsdad]

I just finished a science fiction book (The Weapon, by Michael Z. Williams) set about 4-500 years in the future, with the UN in charge of planet Earth and the society is EXACTLY what you're describing. It's an interesting read, and I found myself wondering if this Mr Williams has been reading NES... many of the themes that he talks about we talk about here.

And yes, I can see society heading that way, too. I'm not blind, and I'm not stupid. I can read the handwriting on the wall.

If you read about what happened to Russia after being under Communist rule for 75 years or so you see much of the same thing. From everything I have read about Russia under the Communists it was falling down around them after all those years of being indoctrinated that nobody was personally responsible. Russia is doing much better now (at least compared to the direction it was headed in) - but Russian, and much of Europe is also committing a slow-burn suicide. The birth rate in Russia is extremely low, as it is in many of the European countries that have fallen into socialism. Pat Buchanan and Mark Steyn among others have written about this. If you think about it - why have kids when they are being born into a sort of virtual slavery? I bet if you went back and looked at the family and birth patterns of slaves in this country you will see that they didn't exactly pop out big families. Socialism - and all of the other political philosophies that tell you that you are not responsible for yourself and your actions, and that the state has a say in every little thing you do - put human beings under a state of soft slavery. You think you have freedom, but when you question the way of things you find out that you don't. Over time this erodes a person's sense of morality, law, and fairness. And what you get in the end is a woman dying on the floor while people just step over her to get their Ho-Ho's.