Comm2A files against the AG on LCIs, Draper v Coakley

[bigblue]

Nobody is arguing that an LCI is the safe way to determine if a round is loaded. It isn't, and the rule is retarded.

So is the argument about whether Glock has an effective LCI. Bottom line is the AG doesn't care.

This is about what the AG can do not what they should do.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

Bottom line is the AG doesn't care.

. We all know that. She wants to "legislate" from her office. This, like all gun control, is not about safety, and all about taking away whatever they can get away with.

 

[Dream to Dream]

The other handguns identified by the dealer plaintiffs may indeed have effective load indicators, but the dealers have not alleged that the Attorney General has affirmatively indicated that they comply with Section 16.05(3). On the other hand, to the extent any handguns have load indicator devices that are similar to the extractor indicator on Glock pistols, those handguns may also be unmerchantable in Massachusetts.

"Keep pushing, ****ers, we'll ban some more guns."

Don't they mention only notifying manufacturers if their handguns do not meet AG criteria? I know that they pull these stunts, but I didn't know they had the balls to come out and say it.

 

[Lank]

I suggest that in the meantime, donate to Comm2A and call the AG (not that it will do any good)

 

[BostonBullit]

If my wife scores 1/4 is it effective? And even if it prevails on appeal or remand, you still can't buy a Glock because of mag safety disconnect, so what's the point.

(Note: I was trained on 1911's and learned to check the chamber. I consider any other technique unsafe.)

Not sure exactly what you're talking about, it's a must have either or, not both. It has a loaded chamber indicator that's effective enough for the AG office to not have a problem with it on other brands so this should be pretty easy. Unless of course you're dealing with activist judges and/or judges that are too lazy to actually think

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

Unless of course you're dealing with activist judges and/or judges that are too lazy to actually think

 

[TayNinh_66]

Not sure exactly what you're talking about, it's a must have either or, not both. It has a loaded chamber indicator that's effective enough for the AG office to not have a problem with it on other brands so this should be pretty easy. Unless of course you're dealing with activist judges and/or judges that are too lazy to actually think

True, it's or, but the Glock has neither and the AG apparently has a hair up about Glocks so it just doesn't seem likely that if Glock paints their LCI pink ala Beretta then AG is going to rescind Glock ban. It is highly unlikely that court will actively set design standards and will revert to the classic SCOTUS pornography quote "I know it when I see it." Even though majority of NES members believe Glock LCI is effective, that is still a subjective call, e.g. i doubt my wife could hit 20/20.

(CA has a similar reg, LCI must be a device that "plainly indicates that a cartridge is in the firing chamber." CA selected 6 employees of the Firearms Division to determine if they could tell if model was loaded by looking at LCI. Only 1 employee could tell so Springfield XD-45 can't be sold in CA.)

 

[Mesatchornug]

True, it's or, but the Glock has neither

So says the AG. However, according to Glock's own product literature, there is a LCI. Thus it has one, and meets the "or" requirement, provided the court can be convinced.

 

[Coyote33]

Not sure exactly what you're talking about, it's a must have either or, not both. It has a loaded chamber indicator that's effective enough for the AG office to not have a problem with it on other brands so this should be pretty easy. Unless of course you're dealing with activist judges and/or judges that are too lazy to actually think

Isn't Healey's girlfriend a judge?
Gabrielle R. Wolohojian is an American judge who serves as an Associate Justice of the Massachusetts Appeals Court.

Is this a conflict of interest?

 

[pastera]

"I know it when I see it"

I don't want to get into who has standing to do what, but I am confused about COMM2A's vagueness approach. AG said:
"The handguns presently manufactured by Glock, Inc. ("Glock") are not incompliance with the Massachusetts Handgun Sales Regulations, because they lack aneffective load indicator or magazine safety disconnect. This Office notified Glock ofthis fact in 2004, and since that time Glock has not notified this Office of any change..."

The briefs seem to address only the load indicator, and there is nothing addressing the mag safety disconnect. Why did that disappear from the briefs?
The Glock load indicator is a joke. I don't think anyone seriously considers a .002" protrusion to be an effective load indicator. Is it COMM2A's position that the .002 is effective? and is it COMM2A's position that Glocks have a mag safety disconnect?

Or is this case simply I don't think the AG has authority to regulate safety and load indicators are meaningless in any case.

You do understand that the human finger can easily feel an edge that is a quarter of that on an otherwise smooth surface? Or that on a flat surface a 0.002 disturbance is easily seen?


My contention is that there is no such animal as an "effective" LCI - If a person knows firearms enough to check an LCI, they already know that it is ineffective and to rack the slide for a real chamber check. A person who is ignorant of firearms is simply not even going to be able to understand the significance of a protuberance even if brightly colored.

 

[pastera]

... The fig leaf the AG hides behind is her statement that they've never actually made a statement that any LCI is 'effective'. The bottom line is that can apply this "because we said so" interpretation to ANY handgun for sale in MA that does not have a magazine disconnect.

Does the fact that she has taken action against Glock create actionable information to say that other similarly sized LCI's are not "effective" and she is derelict of duty in allowing those particular firearms to be trafficked?

 

[BostonBullit]

True, it's or, but the Glock has neither and the AG apparently has a hair up about Glocks so it just doesn't seem likely that if Glock paints their LCI pink ala Beretta then AG is going to rescind Glock ban. It is highly unlikely that court will actively set design standards and will revert to the classic SCOTUS pornography quote "I know it when I see it." Even though majority of NES members believe Glock LCI is effective, that is still a subjective call, e.g. i doubt my wife could hit 20/20.

(CA has a similar reg, LCI must be a device that "plainly indicates that a cartridge is in the firing chamber." CA selected 6 employees of the Firearms Division to determine if they could tell if model was loaded by looking at LCI. Only 1 employee could tell so Springfield XD-45 can't be sold in CA.)

I don't like bringing the wife into things but it's your example....so you're saying that your wife couldn't tell by running her finger over the glock LCI whether the gun is loaded or not?


Any I know the Comm2A guys will freak about the back and forth soon because the crux of the case isn't even if it has one or not but he fact that one govt agency has made a subjective standard and is claiming to be above all reproach....sorry guys

 

[Len-2A Training]

Does the fact that she has taken action against Glock create actionable information to say that other similarly sized LCI's are not "effective" and she is derelict of duty in allowing those particular firearms to be trafficked?

I don't think you want to go there. I'm sure that the AG would be more than happy to ban all the guns on the EOPS List, so we don't need to encourage that action.

 

[noxin]

Does the fact that she has taken action against Glock create actionable information to say that other similarly sized LCI's are not "effective" and she is derelict of duty in allowing those particular firearms to be trafficked?

Let's not give her any ideas, it's already hard enough to get new firearms in Mass, nevermind if she nukes the list.

 

[M1911]

Isn't Healey's girlfriend a judge?
Gabrielle R. Wolohojian is an American judge who serves as an Associate Justice of the Massachusetts Appeals Court.

Is this a conflict of interest?

My guess is that if any of the AG's lawsuits make it to the Massachusetts Appeals Court that Wolohojian will recuse herself from that case.

 

[M1911]

I don't like bringing the wife into things but it's your example....so you're saying that your wife couldn't tell by running her finger over the glock LCI whether the gun is loaded or not?

I suspect what he is saying is that 1) she wouldn't know to run her finger over the Glock's extractor to check the LCI, and 2) even if she did, she wouldn't know the significance of it.

And that is basically the entire problem with LCI's, in a nutshell. Only someone who is familiar with guns knows the significance of a LCI. And if you know enough to know what a LCI is, then you also know enough to remove the magazine, lock the slide open, and check the damn chamber.

 

[SJan]

If you know enough to know what a LCI is, then you also know enough to remove the magazine, lock the slide open, and check the damn chamber.

But if you did that, your firearm would be empty. It's not an empty chamber indicator ... Its a loaded chamber indicator.

Duh.

 

[M1911]

But if you did that, your firearm would be empty. It's not an empty chamber indicator ... Its a loaded chamber indicator. Duh.

Then slightly retract the slide and look down.

 

[NewGuyRay]

Not related to the AG's argument that her office is the supreme arbiter on what constitutes an effective LCI and shall not be questioned but, has anyone ever seen a documented case where someone was injured when an LCI failed to indicate properly and resulted in a ND?

My argument has always been the the LCI creates a false sense of safety and complacency resulting in unsafe gun handling practices. It is a mechanical device after all and should not be relied on in place of a press-check.

 

[Gooman24]

Not related to the AG's argument that her office is the supreme arbiter on what constitutes an effective LCI and shall not be questioned but, has anyone ever seen a documented case where someone was injured when an LCI failed to indicate properly and resulted in a ND?

My argument has always been the the LCI creates a false sense of safety and complacency resulting in unsafe gun handling practices. It is a mechanical device after all and should not be relied on in place of a press-check.

So seeing as how the LCI is a tactical feature to let you know the gun is ready for action the real question should be did anyone not get shot who was supposed to get shot because it failed. The next question being did one of those people who were supposed to get shot but didn't then shoot someone they weren't supposed to be able to shoot because they should have already been shot. I only ask this because an LCI under no circumstances should ever prevent an ND.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[noxin]

So seeing as how the LCI is a tactical feature to let you know the gun is ready for action the real question should be did anyone not get shot who was supposed to get shot because it failed. The next question being did one of those people who were supposed to get shot but didn't then shoot someone they weren't supposed to be able to shoot because they should have already been shot. I only ask this because an LCI under no circumstances should ever prevent an ND.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

my head hurts

 

[JJ4]

I'm probably missing something obvious, but:

If the AG claims the Gen 4 Glock LCI is not "effective enough", what prevents an 07FFL from modifying the LCI to make it "effective" under the specifications of the AG, and then selling them in MA? Such modification could be yellow nailpolish or a dab of solder.

The crux of the above, is that the AG refuses to define what would make the LCI effective under their regulation. At this point the confusion due to the ambiguity of the regulation can no longer be answered "because the AG says so", but instead must be answered with technical definitions.

 

[1903Collector]

I looked at LCIs on my MA compliant pistols from other mfgs last night, then I looked at the Glocks, just had to laugh.

 

[P-14]

I looked at LCIs on my MA compliant pistols from other mfgs last night, then I looked at the Glocks, just had to laugh.

But, Glocks are different than other pistols. They are evil, black, plastic pistols and extra scary and killy. And, they're automatics with clips! They are EBRs only short and much worse! They are dangerous and violent, even when nobody is touching them. OH. THE VIOLENCE!

The AG is an ass and so is Marsha.

 

[noxin]

But, Glocks are different than other pistols. They are evil, black, plastic pistols and extra scary and killy. And, they're automatics with clips! They are EBRs only short and much worse! They are dangerous and violent, even when nobody is touching them. OH. THE VIOLENCE!

And only the police are the one trained to properly use such deadly, unsafe firearms

 

[FNHFAL]

But, Glocks are different than other pistols. They are evil, black, plastic pistols and extra scary and killy. And, they're automatics with clips! They are EBRs only short and much worse! They are dangerous and violent, even when nobody is touching them. OH. THE VIOLENCE!

The AG is an ass and so is Marsha.

and the rare Glock model 7 cannot be picked up on X-ray machines.

 

[pupchow]

And only the police are the one trained to properly use such deadly, unsafe firearms

Get rid of the LEO loophole, and watch thing$ change.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I'm probably missing something obvious, but:

If the AG claims the Gen 4 Glock LCI is not "effective enough", what prevents an 07FFL from modifying the LCI to make it "effective" under the specifications of the AG, and then selling them in MA? Such modification could be yellow nailpolish or a dab of solder.

The inability to get an a-priori ruling as to the compliance of a gun makes this too risk for dealers to do. Which is how the AG likes it.

 

[1903Collector]

But, Glocks are different than other pistols. They are evil, black, plastic pistols and extra scary and killy. And, they're automatics with clips! They are EBRs only short and much worse! They are dangerous and violent, even when nobody is touching them. OH. THE VIOLENCE!

The AG is an ass and so is Marsha.

Right, it has nothing to do with LCIs, MA has a hard on over Glocks. The LCI thing is just a means to and end.

 

[drgrant]

The inability to get an a-priori ruling as to the compliance of a gun makes this too risk for dealers to do. Which is how the AG likes it.

Exactly, you can't send the AG a pic of the modification and get approval because they will say nothing. All current manufacturer implementations of LCIs are based on, at most, speculation and wild assed guesses of the gun manufacturer's respective legal counsel.

In numerous cases some guns did not have LCIs designed "just for MA" and whatever they came with was (apparently) enough.

-Mike