College campus carry options/ideas

[glockshooter]

I am going to be taking classes at a college in the Boston area that is not in the best of places and I just wanted to ask for clarifications of a couple laws.

1. Can I have a locked box with a locked pistol in it that is bolted down in my car? (assuming I have LTC A ALP)

2. Can I carry mace with me in/at school?

Any suggestions/thoughts?

 

[EcHo]

1. Yes. MGL 269-10j only prohibits carrying on your person.

2. Depends on your (and by that I mean the cop who discovers the mace) interpretation of "dangerous weapon"

MGL 269-10j: "(j) Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, and notwithstanding any license obtained by him under the provisions of chapter one hundred and forty, carries on his person a firearm as hereinafter defined, loaded or unloaded or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. For the purpose of this paragraph, “firearm” shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged by whatever means.

Any officer in charge of an elementary or secondary school, college or university or any faculty member or administrative officer of an elementary or secondary school, college or university failing to report violations of this paragraph shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and punished by a fine of not more than five hundred dollars. "

IANAL, but as long as the firearms isn't on your person you should be fine. Again, just hope the cop who discovers it understands this small detail.

 

[glockshooter]

Thank you for your reply.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Please remember that the majority of police may not be aware of the "on one's person" nuance of 269/10j. Consider for a moment - do you really think a college is going to train its police that even though prohibited by school policy, an unloaded gun locked in a vehicle is not a crime, and that they should not make an arrest ... or do you think they'll just train them "gun are illegal except for police, confiscate and arrest in all cases". Also, I don't know how far university police can go enforcing "policy" - for example, the could order you to leave campus, but they might be on shaky legal ground making an arrest for something that is not a criminal offense but is against institution rules.

 

[securityboy]

Please remember that the majority of police may not be aware of the "on one's person" nuance of 269/10j. Consider for a moment - do you really think a college is going to train its police that even though prohibited by school policy, an unloaded gun locked in a vehicle is not a crime, and that they should not make an arrest ... or do you think they'll just train them "gun are illegal except for police, confiscate and arrest in all cases". Also, I don't know how far university police can go enforcing "policy" - for example, the could order you to leave campus, but they might be on shaky legal ground making an arrest for something that is not a criminal offense but is against institution rules.

Regardless how you think a college may train its PD (last I knew no college in MA had its own academy), the real question is why is the PD going through that vehicle in the first place to find said lock box...

Obviously they can not arrest for violating instituational rules (what would the charge be?) But you may be subject to future tresspass violations and school sanctions (which for any weapon violation I would expect to be severe).Depending on your level of "acheivement", the resulting school sanction may have longer lasting affects than had you been charged with some crime. IE. good luck getting into Yale after you were expelled from Harvard for bringing a gun on campus...

 

[glockshooter]

Bringing a gun prob isnt the best option but I wanted to understand the legal end better. On campus is reasonably safe but as soon as you leave its not a great area.

I dont need to worry about the Yale / Harvard problem.....

 

[vellnueve]

#1 is technically legal although pistol would have to be locked and secured before you get on campus grounds. Not recommended AT ALL.

#2 is not legal and successful prosecutions have been made.

 

[Len-2A Training]

#2 is not legal and successful prosecutions have been made.

A good friend recently retired as a long-time prosecutor for one of those Boston area colleges. He has a track record of SUCCESSFUL prosecutions (in multiple courts) of those carrying OC. Be forewarned!!

If the chief of campus police will give you written approval and you have a LTC/FID, then you'd be in the clear legally (and wrt college sanctions), but I'd say that it's about as unlikely as winning the lottery that they would issue such a letter on most college campuses.

 

[zeppelinfromled]

With regard to the gun, as others have said, locked up is ok. But be aware of when you transfer the gun from your person to the locked container and then back onto your person. Make sure it's before you get onto campus and after you leave campus, respectively.

Different schools have different policies with OC. From my understanding: Suffolk has no problem with it, BU will nail you to the wall, MIT and Harvard don't really like it and it's not really clear, Tufts doesn't seem to mind. I don't know about other schools, and I could be wrong about those schools. I would anonymously call the school's PD and ask.

 

[RFWAVELENGTH]

#1 is technically legal although pistol would have to be locked and secured before you get on campus grounds. Not recommended AT ALL.

#2 is not legal and successful prosecutions have been made.

Given the choice of a female family member or other loved one getting caught carrying/using OC or other chemical irritant on campus vs. a late-night call from the hospital with that person in critical condition, many people would take the "successful prosecutions" route. Better to be a live defendant in criminal court than a dead/maimed/raped victim IMHO. When I attended graduate school (MBA program) at UMass-Lowell, many women carried OC. Most didn't have LTCs or FIDs. They bought the stuff in NH, about 10 minutes across the border.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

.Depending on your level of "acheivement", the resulting school sanction may have longer lasting affects than had you been charged with some crime.

True, but the question remains relevant for persons who have other business on school property but are not in a position to be sanctioned by the institution. For example, visiting the Springfield Technical College to see the Springfield Armory museum.

The biggest risk of discovery for most people is having their car broken into or stolen.

Another big risk is doing something stupid like saying "I unholstered and locked the gun in the trunk of the car after parking it" - thus converting a no violation situation into a spontaneous admission to a crime.

Also, remember that MGL requires the stored gun to be unloaded and in a locked case "such as the trunk" when leaving it unattended. ("Such as a trunk" is not wording from MGL, but from an EOPS statement on the issue of storage of a handgun in a vehicle). One of the very few good things that came of the 1998 law was giving people the legal ability to leave an unattended firearm (handgun in MGL parlance) in an unattended motor vehicle. This was formerly an offense punishable by $100, a one year loss of LTC, and the subsequent suitability issue.

 

[M1911]

Regardless how you think a college may train its PD (last I knew no college in MA had its own academy), the real question is why is the PD going through that vehicle in the first place to find said lock box...

You pull into the parking lot. Take your gun out of your holster to put it in said lockbox, and someone walking by sees your gun. They call the campus PD and you're off the races.

Or someone breaks into your car, you call the police to report the theft, and you're off to the races.

Stuff happens.

 

[securityboy]

You pull into the parking lot. Take your gun out of your holster to put it in said lockbox, and someone walking by sees your gun. They call the campus PD and you're off the races.

In that case you have broken the law, by carrying on your person onto campus. as mentioned by:

... But be aware of when you transfer the gun from your person to the locked container and then back onto your person. Make sure it's before you get onto campus and after you leave campus, respectively...

...Another big risk is doing something stupid like saying "I unholstered and locked the gun in the trunk of the car after parking it" - thus converting a no violation situation into a spontaneous admission to a crime...

so on to the second half

Or someone breaks into your car, you call the police to report the theft, and you're off to the races.
Stuff happens.

You would be under no obligation to open that locked box if your vehicle was broken into. Vehicle breaks are very fast events, your lock box should be be strong enough to survive such a break...

 

[vellnueve]

With regard to the gun, as others have said, locked up is ok. But be aware of when you transfer the gun from your person to the locked container and then back onto your person. Make sure it's before you get onto campus and after you leave campus, respectively.

Different schools have different policies with OC. From my understanding: Suffolk has no problem with it, BU will nail you to the wall, MIT and Harvard don't really like it and it's not really clear, Tufts doesn't seem to mind. I don't know about other schools, and I could be wrong about those schools. I would anonymously call the school's PD and ask.

Tufts does not allow OC. BC doesn't allow it normally but there's a quote from a few years back by their chief that if you request permission it may be granted.

Given the choice of a female family member or other loved one getting caught carrying/using OC or other chemical irritant on campus vs. a late-night call from the hospital with that person in critical condition, many people would take the "successful prosecutions" route. Better to be a live defendant in criminal court than a dead/maimed/raped victim IMHO. When I attended graduate school (MBA program) at UMass-Lowell, many women carried OC. Most didn't have LTCs or FIDs. They bought the stuff in NH, about 10 minutes across the border.

Perhaps, but this isn't the question here. The question is one of legality.

 

[EcHo]

If the chief of campus police will give you written approval and you have a LTC/FID, then you'd be in the clear legally (and wrt college sanctions), but I'd say that it's about as unlikely as winning the lottery that they would issue such a letter on most college campuses.

Different schools have different policies with OC. From my understanding: Suffolk has no problem with it, BU will nail you to the wall, MIT and Harvard don't really like it and it's not really clear, Tufts doesn't seem to mind. I don't know about other schools, and I could be wrong about those schools. I would anonymously call the school's PD and ask.

Umass Amherst's Chief Whitehead/Deputy Chief Archbald will give written permission to carry OC to MA residents holding a valid LTC/FID. I have had one run-in with UMPD where they discovered the OC in my pocket (everyone was frisked before entering a school run dance that was loaded with drunk people). The Sgt who discovered it just asked to see my LTC and said OC wasn't allowed in the building, but he would hold it for me at the station. Upon going to the station to collect my property after the dance, a different sgt returned it to me after a discussion about the laws of this state. He was under the impression that written permission from the Chief gives me the right to possess OC, but not use it. The next morning I called the Chief to get things straightened out and he said I was fine and that he has "62 officers with probably 62 different opinions of the law". He then sent me a second piece of written permission to show to the next officer who disagrees with my (and his) interpretation of the law.

I guess this only speaks for Umass Amherst, but I think their policy is as fair as it can be given MGL 269-10j and how the definition of "dangerous weapon" is basically up to the officer and DA who you interact with.

 

[M1911]

In that case you have broken the law, by carrying on your person onto campus. as mentioned by:

I'm well aware of that. But I suspect that if someone is regularly driving to school, at least one day they are going to forget to have stopped beforehand to store the gun. Once they've parked, it will be tempting to just store the gun while in the parking lot.

You would be under no obligation to open that locked box if your vehicle was broken into. Vehicle breaks are very fast events, your lock box should be be strong enough to survive such a break...

You have more faith in the lock box than I. Several years back, a woman who was involved in a magazine (Women on Target? Women and guns?) and an AWARE instructor dragooned a friend's 10-12 year old kids to test gun lock boxes. She brought several of them over and asked the kids to break in to them. One of them was disappointed when she said "No, you can't use a Sawzall." Nevertheless, with nothing more than a screwdriver, the kids got into every lockbox in less than 30 seconds.

Once they broke in and stole the gun, then you would be obligated to report said fact on your FA-10.

Finally, on most (all?) campuses, having guns on school property, even the parking lot, is against school policy unless you have permission (which you are unlikely to get). If the school finds out, you will likely be expelled.

 

[securityboy]

Finally, on most (all?) campuses, having guns on school property, even the parking lot, is against school policy unless you have permission (which you are unlikely to get). If the school finds out, you will likely be expelled.

I agree with you completely on that, and that is what I was peaking of in my first post on this subject when I said,

...Obviously they can not arrest for violating instituational rules (what would the charge be?) But you may be subject to future tresspass violations and school sanctions (which for any weapon violation I would expect to be severe).Depending on your level of "acheivement", the resulting school sanction may have longer lasting affects than had you been charged with some crime. IE. good luck getting into Yale after you were expelled from Harvard for bringing a gun on campus...

 

[Mach]

So OC is now considered a dangerous weapon? Where is that written down?

 

[glockshooter]

Thanks for the replies.
A friend of mine spoke with the campus police today and they said OC is fine. That is most likely my best bet I think.....

 

[Scrivener]

So OC is now considered a dangerous weapon? Where is that written down?

In the statute defining "ammunition."

As has been discussed here, including THIS thread, MANY times.

 

[Mach]

In the statute defining "ammunition."

As has been discussed here, including THIS thread, MANY times.

I read this thread twice. Nowhere is there a reference for OC being considered a dangerous weapon. yes it was stated, but I usually read the law myself because I have read many posts where people claim to know the law and they simply do not.

I will look in the MGL regarding ammunition for a reference to pepper spray being classified as a dangerous weapon.. thanks

 

[vellnueve]

Scrivener is a lawyer specializing in Massachusetts firearms law. I would take his word for it.

 

[bhmax16]

My argument would be how can you consider OC a dangerous weapon when it's less than lethal? Sure it could maybe potentially permanently damage one's vision, but the very fact that it can't take a life is why I'd argue for it to be able to be freely carried, on a college campus or not, with no license required. Think about it...how many young women are assaulted on or around college campuses every year that maybe could have been prevented? If the nation is never going to permit concealed carry on school grounds they should, at the bare minimum, permit the carry of OC, tasers, and other less than lethal self-defense mechanisms. However, being that people have been prosecuted for doing so, I'm not advocating that anybody should until/if the laws are changed

 

[Mach]

Look at the quotes from MGL. Clearly OC spray is defined as ammunition and that is why an FID card is required for purchase or possession.

However the term weapon in MGL is clearly defined as a rifle shotgun or firearm. Although clearly stated "As used Chapter 140, in sections 122 to 131P" Clearly chapter 269 is not chapter 140

In MGL 269-10j clearly says or other dangerous weapon, the definition of weapon being a rifle, shotgun or firearm. Nowhere that I have seen is OC spray defined as a weapon or dangerous weapon. It is defined as ammunition. What am I missing?

MGL 269-10j: "(j) Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, and notwithstanding any license obtained by him under the provisions of chapter one hundred and forty, carries on his person a firearm as hereinafter defined, loaded or unloaded or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. For the purpose of this paragraph, “firearm” shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged by whatever means.

Chapter 140: Section 121. Firearms sales; definitions; antique firearms; application of law; exceptions

“Ammunition”, cartridges or cartridge cases, primers (igniter), bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm, rifle or shotgun. The term “ammunition” shall also mean tear gas cartridges, chemical mace or any device or instrument which contains or emits a liquid, gas, powder or any other substance designed to incapacitate.


....

“Weapon”, any rifle, shotgun or firearm.

Even this paragraph of 269 section 10 defines a not all inclusive list of dangerous weapons does not include OC spray. the bolded part shows the list before it as a definition.

(b) Whoever, except as provided by law, carries on his person, or carries on his person or under his control in a vehicle, any stiletto, dagger or a device or case which enables a knife with a locking blade to be drawn at a locked position, any ballistic knife, or any knife with a detachable blade capable of being propelled by any mechanism, dirk knife, any knife having a double-edged blade, or a switch knife, or any knife having an automatic spring release device by which the blade is released from the handle, having a blade of over one and one-half inches, or a slung shot, blowgun, blackjack, metallic knuckles or knuckles of any substance which could be put to the same use with the same or similar effect as metallic knuckles, nunchaku, zoobow, also known as klackers or kung fu sticks, or any similar weapon consisting of two sticks of wood, plastic or metal connected at one end by a length of rope, chain, wire or leather, a shuriken or any similar pointed starlike object intended to injure a person when thrown, or any armband, made with leather which has metallic spikes, points or studs or any similar device made from any other substance or a cestus or similar material weighted with metal or other substance and worn on the hand, or a manrikigusari or similar length of chain having weighted ends; or whoever, when arrested upon a warrant for an alleged crime, or when arrested while committing a breach or disturbance of the public peace, is armed with or has on his person, or has on his person or under his control in a vehicle, a billy or other dangerous weapon other than those herein mentioned and those mentioned in paragraph (a), shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than two and one-half years nor more than five years in the state prison, or for not less than six months nor more than two and one-half years in a jail or house of correction, except that, if the court finds that the defendant has not been previously convicted of a felony, he may be punished by a fine of not more than fifty dollars or by imprisonment for not more than two and one-half years in a jail or house of correction.

I am not trying to be difficult, I just don't see a definition of OC spray as a dangerous weapon, just considered as ammunition. Ammunition is not banned from campus, dangerous weapons are.

 

[Blitz1]

To the OP. Simple answer, don't do it.

 

[vellnueve]

For the purposes of 269/10, dangerous weapon includes ammunition.

 

[Len-2A Training]

For the purposes of 269/10, dangerous weapon includes ammunition.

Or at least that is what my prosecutor friend has been able to convince various judges in numerous courts to get convictions . . . which also means that these students forfeited a degree in a very prestigious college.

 

[Mach]

Or at least that is what my prosecutor friend has been able to convince various judges in numerous courts to get convictions . . . which also means that these students forfeited a degree in a very prestigious college.

Well I guess then it is settled with case law. I thought I was missing something in the law. I guess not.

I guess people are just supposed to know that ammunition is considered a dangerous weapon in the state of MA even though there is no law stating such. A spent case would therefore be under the same constraints and viewed as a dangerous weapon. I don't see how most people stay out of jail in this state. Most states someone can read the law and know with a fair degree of certainty what is illegal. Not so much in MA. I never would have imagined in my wildest dreams after reading the law, that OC spray is considered a dangerous weapon. And people wonder why women are raped on college campuses in MA.

Don't anybody give the judges any ideas that a cup of hot coffee can be thrown in the face of an attacker, or they might start prosecuting students for possession of hot coffee on college campuses.

MA, the birthplace of Liberty.

PS, since I've been a general pain in the ass on a couple of threads, trying to understand the law by reading it, I've decided to become a paying member. Thanks for putting up with me and walking me through this insanity.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

As covered in previous discussions with Len, he doesn't know if there were "convictions", "guilty pleas as a result of a plea bargain", CWOF, or a finding of guilty by a judge or jury. No conviction is needed for the school to take action, but it is very possible that one might see a plea bargain or CWOF in a case where there is ambiguity as to whether or not the offense is a crime - particularly when the penalty as a result of taking the deal (particularly if it's a CWOF which results in no conviction after the CWOF period) is far less than the expense of fighting a battle in court one is not assured of winning.

Another item that falls into the "don't know" category is "did the students in question each hold an FID or LTC?" If the answer was "no", their legal position was compromised thus adding to the already significant incentive to take a deal. And, minor offenses like possession of OC commonly see a deal like a CWOF rather than an actual trial, particularly with persons with no record and circumstances not involving any violence.

So, while Len's comments serve nicely to explain that there is real risk of court action, we still don't know if the courts have ruled specifically on this issue.

 

[OfficerObie59]

So OC is now considered a dangerous weapon? Where is that written down?

Even this paragraph of 269 section 10 defines a not all inclusive list of dangerous weapons does not include OC spray. the bolded part shows the list before it as a definition.

I am not trying to be difficult, I just don't see a definition of OC spray as a dangerous weapon, just considered as ammunition. Ammunition is not banned from campus, dangerous weapons are.

According to John Rogers, an attorney from Fall River who writes text books for Massachusetts law enforcement, when it comes to MGL 269/10 regarding the carrying firearms or dangerous weapons on school grounds, the dangerous weapon does NOT have to be one as defined in 269/10(b), the "per se" statute that includes double edges knives, brass knuckles, etc.

"Any potential weapon will come within the statute. As an example, where a small boy brings a steak knife into school--this would violate the statute even though a steak knife is not a dangerous weapon per se under 269/10(b), e.g., switch blade knife."

- Rogers, Masschusetts Criminal Law Textbook 2005, pg. 469

Also see Commonwealth vs. Sayer, 438 Mass. 238 (2002) where a BB gun was sufficient for a conviction under the statute.

On a side note, it may be worth mentioning that there is also a paragraph that makes it a criminal offense for any officer or educator of a school who fails to report violations of the statute in question on this thread. I just wouldn't leave it up to a liberal college professor to distinguish between the nuances of the statute, especially if they are under the false impression their own ass could be on the line. Could mean a whole lot of hassle and unwanted attention.