Charging LEOs to use Club Range

[surgetek]

Not sure what they pay, if anything, but my club’s calendar is littered with PD trainings. Usually all week, 6 hours a day, by various towns.

They’re a little anal so I’m sure there is someone there the whole time to watch them.

 

[Mesatchornug]

You are correct. As a guy that ran that qual more than I care to remember… the average shooter would struggle if held to those exact standards using a level 3 holster and duty belt setup. That’s why almost no one uses the time standards they set. 90% of cops would fail

Edit: looks like they removed a lot of the time standards since I hung it up

Looks like that document is dated 2013. Couldn't find a newer one.

It did make me want to set it up to test myself. I'm sure I won't make standards, but I'm not all that professional...

 

[556USER]

I don't think it is as much the training as the type of training. PD training is more than likely not punching paper at 30 to 50 ft. Practicing moving while shooting etc. This is probably outside the capabilities and rules of many ranges. Moving while shooting is going to impact accuracy.

EXACTLY, a great many clubs are not located in isolated enough areas to allow that type of fire and most are not designed for it. Having said that, a few days of running around while firing rounds over berms and out of the firing lanes into neighborhoods is not likely to develop the skills needed to do it well. (Firing while running around) They likely need two or three intensive, multi-day sessions every year, someplace "safe" to ever become good at this. It's a waste of time to let them endanger the existence our private clubs and those who live nearby. By and large the club members are much better and safer shooters than the cops.

 

[MaverickNH]

Shot a few cars? Excuse me? I don't see how 1 is excusable, but more than 2?

It was more like, the first car driver reported a loud bang as they were driving and found a hole when they got home. The PD tried to manage that internally until it happened again. Then the Chief heard about it and shut the range down.

The story is, the firing line was actually in a pig farm and the pigs were eating the brass. The owner thought the PD was cleaning up but not so. It’s not the transfats in bacon that’ll kill you, sometimes…

 

[AFAR/PFAR]

Letting the fox into the hen house.

This.

Letting the same cops that will gleefully toss you you in cuffs for having an 11 round mag or god forbid having a firearm at all without a permission slip. f*** them. f*** them all.

 

[FalArAk]

As we speak . . .​

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Milford police will conduct annual firearms training four nights this week​

Daily News Staff
Mon, November 14, 2022 at 8:43 AM·1 min read
MILFORD — The Police Department advises residents that police will be conducting their annual nighttime firearms training over four nights this week.
In a press release, police said training will take place from 4-10 p.m. on Tuesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday at the Milford Police Department firearms range on Cedar Street (Route 85).
Police said that although this training may be inconvenient for some residents, it's an important — and mandatory — piece of training that all officers must attend to ensure they are well trainied and prepared to serve the community.
Those with questions are asked to contact Sgt. Michael Mastroianni at 508-473-1113.

Duck!!!!

 

[M1911]

Yeah, I get that. It's why I said they could get in their car and go use the nearest police range.

Of course, that means increased cost to the towns and thus increased taxes, since police officers are paid while doing their qualification.

 

[FalArAk]

Maybe Dench can answer this.. How do cops in states like FL with very little to no private ranges qualify and practice? MA has a bunch of private clubs compared to other states.

 

[FalArAk]

Of course, that means increased cost to the towns and thus increased taxes, since police officers are paid while doing their qualification.

They don't seem to care about money/taxes/costs when paying cops to do scam details... See Big Dig and just about every other 2 week public construction job that is stretched out months.

 

[mothybee]

Id let them do it as long as they use only current MA compliant firearms and magazines that the general public can use.

Muskets only.

 

[Picton]

Of course, that means increased cost to the towns and thus increased taxes, since police officers are paid while doing their qualification.

I've got several rejoinders, but for the purposes of this thread, I'll say that in general I understand municipal police forces using municipal tax revenue to qualify on their firearms.

But I'm not about to pay twice. Which is what I'm doing when they use the range at which I pay dues for their free qualification. Then I pay again, with my time, when I'm the next shooter after the police leave and I've got oodles of their brass to clean up.

I will begrudgingly pay taxes toward the police, FOR MY OWN TOWN. I don't want to pay for other towns' cops to come for free to a facility that I pay extra to maintain.

 

[M1911]

I lobbied against allowing the local PD to use our range back when I was an officer, for all the reasons discussed above. So I understand and share the concerns. I'm not saying that club should rent the range to the local PD. I'm just pointing out the consequences of not doing so. There aren't that many PD ranges anymore, so if the PD can't rent a local range t may result in a significant expense for the PD. In our town, the old public safety building had a range in the basement. But when they built a new pubic safety building, they chose not to build a range in the basement (likely due to health and cost concerns). Our town used to have its own range out near the town dump, but that land was turned into a Chapter 40b housing development, so I don't know where they are training these days.

 

[M1911]

They don't seem to care about money/taxes/costs when paying cops to do scam details... See Big Dig and just about every other 2 week public construction job that is stretched out months.

Ultimately, though, the money comes out of our pockets.

 

[FalArAk]

Ultimately, though, the money comes out of our pockets.

Ya I know.. That's the point.. The seem to have no problem spending our money when it comes to sham details. It only seems to be a problem, or they are all the sudden concerned when the money doesn't go directly into their pockets.

I get that there is a training budget they have to adhere to, but wouldn't it be cheaper to give each cop a $150 stipend every year to cover gun club dues? The tax payers pay State Police to pass a physical every year, so why not this? How the quals will go I have no idea, but that will cover training. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this board that might have to cover classes/training/supplies partially out of their own pocket to keep their job, why are cops immune to this? Rhetorical question They might just think the tax payers should pay for everything due to the attitude that they are the only thing standing in the way of complete anarchy and it's the least we(the taxpayers) could do lol

 

[Mark from MA]

Does anyone have a story of cops actually helping a gun range when neighbors complained?

Yes.

A few times the neighbors called on us shooting skeet at 9:01 pm. We usually end by 9 most times before.

But we have until 10 pm technically per local ordinances.

The cruiser swung by to let us know someone called and complained just so we know, and he’s informed that party that we have until 10pm and not to call again.

Most of the times its someone new who moved in. But they do a great job of informing our neighbors of our rights.

 

[Dench]

Wasnt it the police or feds who slinged a few rounds off Camp Curtis in Reading that lead to that range to be closed?

 

[Buck F]

Does anyone have a story of cops actually helping a gun range when neighbors complained?

If I'm not mistaken, one of the neighbors that complained and got Angle Tree shut down for a period of time was a retired cop, father of two active duty cops.

 

[FalArAk]

Yes.

A few times the neighbors called on us shooting skeet at 9:01 pm. We usually end by 9 most times before.

But we have until 10 pm technically per local ordinances.

The cruiser swung by to let us know someone called and complained just so we know, and he’s informed that party that we have until 10pm and not to call again.

Most of the times its someone new who moved in. But they do a great job of informing our neighbors of our rights.

So now police doing their job by informing someone that complained about noise ordinances is considered "helping" ?

How far public perception has fallen when cops doing their job is now considered going above and beyond lol

 

[Mark from MA]

What about liability? If a cop has a ND and someone gets injured or killed, is it on the police department or on the club? Last thing we need is another incident that puts a club in danger of being shut down by local authorities. All it takes is one fool to do something stupid!

Group rentals or outings at our club must show us show us a liability policy of their group before they are allowed. PD included. We let them use a day or two a year for free. But they must have insurance, which they are covered by town insurance.

Personal rentals are covered by our own insurance. But those are parties only. Anything field or gun range related requires
Private insurance

 

[Buck F]

I might make an exception for the local PD in the town the range is in IF there's a good relationship with the department and it's very limited, like 2 days per year for qualification. Other than that, no dice, let them go to AFS or MFS and rent the place. AFS has quite a few agencies that train there and it's one of their moneymakers during the weekdays when the place is mostly empty.

 

[Mark from MA]

When cops are at the range, do any of them walk around asking for NFA paperwork or to check mags? Hmm...

Not the PD we allow in. NFW would that shit happen.

 

[FisherTech]

Wasnt it the police or feds who slinged a few rounds off Camp Curtis in Reading that lead to that range to be closed?

Does it really matter, it was some kind cop that didn't give a shit.

 

[Dench]

Does it really matter, it was some kind cop that didn't give a shit.

No, I guess it doesnt matter where they came from. But if my memory is correct (and It might be wrong), it was a state or fed agency in the 80's or 90's that ruined that range.

Something I'd certainly keep in mind if I was the OP.

MA would greatly benefit from having a guard rifle range on the northshore. But, since MA sucks, well you know.

 

[MGnoob]

Have a LE Agency wanting to use our one of our ranges probably a couple days a month. For other clubs that are doing this what do you charge? Per person per day? Set fee for the range for the day? Or?

That’s a tricky one.. In my experience with former clubs.. They show up with their full auto.

But I receive all the complaints.

I offered all these guys a chance to train on my property, I still would. I wouldn’t charge them goddamn penny..

 

[MainelyFree]

Holy shit. A2 uppers with gooseneck-mounted Aimpoints. That's HS/LD right there...in 1995.

Retro AR’s are all the rage these days.

 

[M1911]

I get that there is a training budget they have to adhere to, but wouldn't it be cheaper to give each cop a $150 stipend every year to cover gun club dues? The tax payers pay State Police to pass a physical every year, so why not this? How the quals will go I have no idea, but that will cover training. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this board that might have to cover classes/training/supplies partially out of their own pocket to keep their job, why are cops immune to this? Rhetorical question They might just think the tax payers should pay for everything due to the attitude that they are the only thing standing in the way of complete anarchy and it's the least we(the taxpayers) could do lol

Qualifications happen either yearly or twice a year. Police officers are on the clock during qualifications. Typically, they have one or more departmental firearms instructors running the qualification for multiple officers at the same time. If different police officers had individual memberships at different clubs, that wouldn't work for qualification. It would be more expensive and difficult to coordinate if the firearms instructor had to perform qualifications at multiple different clubs for different officers. The same is true for group training, where it is led by one of the departments firearms instructors and attended by multiple police officers and is done on the clock (that is, the time is paid).

 

[Mark from MA]

So now police doing their job by informing someone that complained about noise ordinances is considered "helping" ?

How far public perception has fallen when cops doing their job is now considered going above and beyond lol

Never said it was above and beyond.

But they also dont have to come to the club and give us the information that someone called either. And other information I wont mention that is put out there so we can addess it if needed

Theyve had our backs at town meetings before as well and one other time when some looney lefty wanted to stop all hunting and shooting in town.

We have a good relationship with our towns PD.
Its in our best interest.

I don’t expect that everywhere in MA. But stop painting with a broad brush.

 

[steve8140]

Clubs should make a policy that any department who utilized their club must publicly advocate for firearm right for citizens and any financial payment goes to gun right orgs. Get them on our side and not support the state laws.
I know, it will never happen.

Otherwise, get f***ed!

 

[LuvDog]

As we speak . . .​

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​

Milford police will conduct annual firearms training four nights this week​

Daily News Staff
Mon, November 14, 2022 at 8:43 AM·1 min read
MILFORD — The Police Department advises residents that police will be conducting their annual nighttime firearms training over four nights this week.
In a press release, police said training will take place from 4-10 p.m. on Tuesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday at the Milford Police Department firearms range on Cedar Street (Route 85).
Police said that although this training may be inconvenient for some residents, it's an important — and mandatory — piece of training that all officers must attend to ensure they are well trainied and prepared to serve the community.
Those with questions are asked to contact Sgt. Michael Mastroianni at 508-473-1113.

I've seen those signs there before. Has anyone been back there? I think they do rescue practices back there too.
Is it just a big sand pit?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Maybe Dench can answer this.. How do cops in states like FL with very little to no private ranges qualify and practice? MA has a bunch of private clubs compared to other states.

This was >30 yrs ago but I went shooting with a local ARfcom'r (or CRFL'r, I forget which group he was part of) at the West Palm Beach Sheriff Dept. range. It had a school bus and helicopter on-site for LE training and a few days/month local folks could shoot there (not at the bus/heli) on their ranges after paying a small fee. A couple of deputies acted as ROs and they were cool folks.

Mansfield PD used to shoot at MF&G but built their own range across the street at the town dump.

Medfield PD has a police training range off Rte. 27.

Back in the 1980s, I was told that the Feds had a training range in Stow.

At least in 2000 (last time I qualified with MPTC), they had a police training range at Raynham town dump.

Most of the police academies in MA do not have their own training ranges. At one time they had a contract with AFS and another time they used Sharon F&G club.

However, police training ranges are very rare in Eastern MA, land is much too valuable and frequently sold off for housing.