ATTENTION: Dealers and those who buy from them

[sig2009]

I would put up the HK45 against any glock or sig.

God. Have you been brainwashed!

 

[drgrant]

Yet somehow HK USPs and all the derivatives (P30, HK45, etc) still aren't MA compliant even though they have everything the AG requires. *sigh*

HK doesn't bother to get most of them on the EOPS roster, which is part of the problem. I also don't know if they have the hidden serial number or not. Part of the dumb AG's regs includes a hidden serial number. On an MA P series Sig, for example, you will see the "hidden" serial number near the breechblock area in tiny print. Not sure how rigorously this part of the regs is enforced, though. The manufacturer can always retort "Well, Martha, if we told you where the hidden serial number was, then it wouldn't be hidden, now would it? "

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

I have read the thread and frankly you people need to stop talking about it and do something! They are 2 conflicting laws and if it is open to any interpretation it's not really a law. It's either one or the other not both.

All .laws are open to interpretation to some degree or another. Obviously poorly written laws are open to even more interpretation. Why do you think lawyers make so much money?

Further, the two sets of rules (one is law, the roster, one is regulation, the AG's crap) don't conflict with one another, on paper. The main problem is that the AG's office has redundant regulatory authority over something it clearly should not have, under a poorly written "consumer protection" law which allows the AG to regulate things that they normally have no business in regulating.

-Mike

 

[center442]

I have read the thread and frankly you people need to stop talking about it and do something! They are 2 conflicting laws and if it is open to any interpretation it's not really a law. It's either one or the other not both.

I don't think it's a matter of conflicting laws. Let's say that MA had a list of acceptable screwdrivers. There's a whole bunch of screwdrivers that are considered acceptable, so they make it onto the list. Now along comes an AG that says, "Hey, any screwdrivers sold must also be safe for consumers to use." One screwdriver has a red handle and apparently that's okay to sell, but the same screwdriver with a black handle is forbidden to the average handyman, even though that screwdriver is widely used by professionally licensed mechanics.

Does it make any sense? No. Is it incredibly stupid? Yes. But this is how we do things in the PRM. Apparently it's how the majority of voters like it.

Both "the list" and the AG's regs are FUBAR.

ETA: drgrant summed it up better than I.

 

[PaulD]

HK doesn't bother to get most of them on the EOPS roster, which is part of the problem. I also don't know if they have the hidden serial number or not. Part of the dumb AG's regs includes a hidden serial number. On an MA P series Sig, for example, you will see the "hidden" serial number near the breechblock area in tiny print. Not sure how rigorously this part of the regs is enforced, though. The manufacturer can always retort "Well, Martha, if we told you where the hidden serial number was, then it wouldn't be hidden, now would it? "

-Mike

Good point. I forgot about that one. I'll have to check mine to see if I can find one. That said, HKs are quite close to compliance but I suspect HK can't be bothered, as you say, to even try to sell them here given the hoops and their reputation towards the civilian market.

 

[PaulD]

I have read the thread and frankly you people need to stop talking about it and do something! They are 2 conflicting laws and if it is open to any interpretation it's not really a law. It's either one or the other not both.

Refer to Mike's and Center442's posts but don't be throwing stones if you live in NJ. You also have licensing laws that are at least as capricious as those in MA. I know someone in Newark who's been waiting for months to get an appointment with the police so he can buy a shotgun.

Also, it is a law if the government enforces it.

 

[daveshrews]

Massachusetts can suck it.

 

[terraformer]

God. Have you been brainwashed!

http://pistol-training.com/archives/3812

 

[center442]

Massachusetts can suck it.

Massachusetts does, in fact, suck. Mightily.

 

[PaulD]

http://pistol-training.com/archives/3812

You are so brainwashed!

 

[M1911]

I have read the thread and frankly you people need to stop talking about it and do something! They are 2 conflicting laws and if it is open to any interpretation it's not really a law. It's either one or the other not both.

MA attorneys and judges disagree with you. As for "doing something" what, exactly, do you suggest? We don't have the votes in the MA legislature to change the law. The dealers association sued the AG, lost, and then did not appeal. As the laws govern what a dealer can sell, not what a person can buy, it is unlikely that MA courts would rule that a consumer has standing, and even if they did, we would lose in MA courts.

Our only hope lies with scotus, and lawsuits are underway in other jurisdictions.

Finally, the fact that you do not understand a law or laws does not mean they are null and void.

 

[PaulD]

MA attorneys and judges disagree with you. As for "doing something" what, exactly, do you suggest? We don't have the votes in the MA legislature to change the law. The dealers association sued the AG, lost, and then did not appeal. As the laws govern what a dealer can sell, not what a person can buy, it is unlikely that MA courts would rule that a consumer has standing, and even if they did, we would lose in MA courts.

Our only hope lies with scotus, and lawsuits are underway in other jurisdictions.

Finally, the fact that you do not understand a law or laws does not mean they are null and void.

As I think I mentioned elsewhere, 2AF and Calguns are suing over the California handgun roster on the basis (if I understand it correctly) that it amounts to a ban of the guns not on the list. I hope they win as it would be a useful precedent for our state.

 

[M1911]

As I think I mentioned elsewhere, 2AF and Calguns are suing over the California handgun roster on the basis (if I understand it correctly) that it amounts to a ban of the guns not on the list. I hope they win as it would be a useful precedent for our state.

Yes, if we get that sort of precedent then we may have a chance.

 

[terraformer]

As I think I mentioned elsewhere, 2AF and Calguns are suing over the California handgun roster on the basis (if I understand it correctly) that it amounts to a ban of the guns not on the list. I hope they win as it would be a useful precedent for our state.

Pena v. Cid
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Pena_v_Cid
It has been stayed pending nordyke. Which if you know anything about nordyke is that it means this will take a while. I can't find the exact date but it was originally filed somewhere in the neighborhood of 2006, decided in 2007-2008 and appealed in early 2009. It has been stayed and restarted quite a few times. All because it relied on precedent not yet minted. Eventually McDonald came down which allowed it to restart.

When it was stayed, Pena relied on Nordyke for incorporation and now I think they are likely waiting for scrutiny at this point. Nordyke is en banc (which is the full appeals court) and I suspect they are hoping that the en banc 9th circuit forces the higher level of review down onto the court Pena is in which is CA federal district court in Sacramento. Nordyke makes 2A claims based on 1A framework so some decision on scrutiny is going to have to occur.

This is why it is sometimes better to wait before jumping out of the gate. Had they held pena back a year or year and a half, less of this would be required. There are rules for amending complaints so if you find a better legal strategy you have to wait until you lose to incorporate it. And if you win, your legal strategy becomes an albatross because you can't easily change it as you move through an appeal. In part because the appeal the other side takes is based on the ruling of the court in the previous case.

 

[terraformer]

Yes, if we get that sort of precedent then we may have a chance.

I will reply to your post but I am really just continuing what I said in mine with more info which is related to your post.

The precedent that Pena is waiting on is for the 9th circuit to agree that the 2A is a fundamental right deserving of strict scrutiny. There is actually already precedent for this in the 3rd circuit via US v. Mazzarella which by shear luck got a great judge to author the opinion on a defaced serial number charge. ie; it was a federal charge so it didn't sit in state court for 3 years. Combine a win in the 9th with a win in the 3rd and this becomes a good set of rulings to work from. If the 9th goes intermediate (they can't go rational basis as that was precluded by heller) then it goes to the supreme court and everything stops all over again waiting for nordyke to hit SCOTUS next session (meaning next year).

 

[sig2009]

Refer to Mike's and Center442's posts but don't be throwing stones if you live in NJ. You also have licensing laws that are at least as capricious as those in MA. I know someone in Newark who's been waiting for months to get an appointment with the police so he can buy a shotgun.

Also, it is a law if the government enforces it.

You don't need an appointment with the police to buy a shotgun in NJ. You need to get a firearms id card. You fill out the paperwork which is sent to the State Gestapo and a background check is done. Get fingerprinted and the card has to be issued within 90 days unless you have something on your record. If it is not issued within 90 days and there are no black marks on your background check then the issuing authority in Newark is breaking the law.

In all honesty I would rather file for permits and wait for them a couple weeks and be able to buy anything I want rather than live somewhere where a gun can be sold if it is black but can't if it is green. Plain and simple one law or how ever you want to call the other conflict with one another and if someone there is not smart enough to take it to court then there is really something wrong with the firearms attorneys in your state.

In fact leave your law like it is. If I ever move back to Ma I will stock up on Glocks and HK's and get rich very quick selling them for $1000 a pop and you know some fools will buy them.

One other question is there a law there that says you can buy food but not eat it?

 

[PaulD]

You don't need an appointment with the police to buy a shotgun in NJ. You need to get a firearms id card. You fill out the paperwork which is sent to the State Gestapo and a background check is done. Get fingerprinted and the card has to be issued within 90 days unless you have something on your record. If it is not issued within 90 days and there are no black marks on your background check then the issuing authority in Newark is breaking the law.

In all honesty I would rather file for permits and wait for them a couple weeks and be able to buy anything I want rather than live somewhere where a gun can be sold if it is black but can't if it is green. Plain and simple one law or how ever you want to call the other conflict with one another and if someone there is not smart enough to take it to court then there is really something wrong with the firearms attorneys in your state.

Semantics. He doesn't have a permit now, he wants a shotgun and is waiting on the permit process so that he can buy a shotgun. Therefore, he's waiting for the police so he can buy a shotgun.

On the other hand, the AWB here is somewhat less restrictive IIRC, we don't have a one gun per month law and once we have a license, we don't have to go back so we can buy another gun. In other words, NJ doesn't suck less, it just sucks differently. Oh, also, for most people in MA, getting a CCW permit is a reasonable possibility. As you even admit, that's not true in NJ.

So as I said, don't throw stones.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I would rather file for permits and wait for them a couple weeks and be able to buy anything I want rather than live somewhere where a gun can be sold if it is black but can't if it is green.

If you are referring to NJ vs MA, are you ignoring the relative ease of getting a MA carry permit, or are you content to merely transport to and from a range?

 

[wolf223]

You don't need an appointment with the police to buy a shotgun in NJ. You need to get a firearms id card. You fill out the paperwork which is sent to the State Gestapo and a background check is done. Get fingerprinted and the card has to be issued within 90 days unless you have something on your record. If it is not issued within 90 days and there are no black marks on your background check then the issuing authority in Newark is breaking the law.

In all honesty I would rather file for permits and wait for them a couple weeks and be able to buy anything I want rather than live somewhere where a gun can be sold if it is black but can't if it is green. Plain and simple one law or how ever you want to call the other conflict with one another and if someone there is not smart enough to take it to court then there is really something wrong with the firearms attorneys in your state.

In fact leave your law like it is. If I ever move back to Ma I will stock up on Glocks and HK's and get rich very quick selling them for $1000 a pop and you know some fools will buy them.

One other question is there a law there that says you can buy food but not eat it?

 

[EddieCoyle]

I'd rather carry hollowpoints.

 

[sig2009]

As far as am concerned I can't afford to spend $2,000 a month to buy 2 guns every month for 12 months so the law really doesn't effect me or other people I know and if you knew anything about NJ law there is paperwork you can file if you really want to buy more than 1 gun a month so there really isn't any one gun a month law. So as I quote you "don't throw stones". And advice for your friend. If the process is over 90 days that he has been waiting. Hire an attorney.

 

[sig2009]

Sure not ignoring the ease of getting thrown in jail if I had one and I used it. Especially in this state. You have no idea what the prosecuters in this state are like! A friend of mines wife tried to kill herself with his night stand gun. Fortunately for her she lived. He was never arrested for anything. His wife said she tried to commit suicide and told cops he had nothing to do with it. The cops then came to his house and took all of his guns. After all was said and done and he was not charged with anything he asked for his guns back. The police chief told him "if you want your guns back sue us". So for not doing anything wrong or charged with anything he had to hire an attorney and after a year and $5,000 he finally got his guns back. So as far as CCW in NJ is concerned I want no part of it.

 

[wolf223]

As far as am concerned I can't afford to spend $2,000 a month to buy 2 guns every month for 12 months so the law really doesn't effect me or other people I know and if you knew anything about NJ law there is paperwork you can file if you really want to buy more than 1 gun a month so there really isn't any one gun a month law. So as I quote you "don't throw stones". And advice for your friend. If the process is over 90 days that he has been waiting. Hire an attorney.

FUDD.

Sure not ignoring the ease of getting thrown in jail if I had one and I used it. Especially in this state. You have no idea what the prosecuters in this state are like! A friend of mines wife tried to kill herself with his night stand gun. Fortunately for her she lived. He was never arrested for anything. His wife said she tried to commit suicide and told cops he had nothing to do with it. The cops then came to his house and took all of his guns. After all was said and done and he was not charged with anything he asked for his guns back. The police chief told him "if you want your guns back sue us". So for not doing anything wrong or charged with anything he had to hire an attorney and after a year and $5,000 he finally got his guns back. So as far as CCW in NJ is concerned I want no part of it.

FUDD again. so basically you don't care about "gun control" because it doesn't personally affect you...



say what you want, both states have their pros and cons. i'll leave it at that.

 

[milktree]

If I ever move back to Ma I will stock up on Glocks and HK's and get rich very quick selling them for $1000 a pop and you know some fools will buy them.

Don't get caught by the ATF doing that. If you're selling guns for money, you're a "dealer" as far as they're concerned, and need an FFL01. It doesn't matter if you use a dealer for the transfers to your customers.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

FUDD.



FUDD again. so basically you don't care about "gun control" because it doesn't personally affect you...

Fudd Ninja, the worst of all Fudds.

 

[drgrant]

Sure not ignoring the ease of getting thrown in jail if I had one and I used it. Especially in this state. You have no idea what the prosecuters in this state are like! A friend of mines wife tried to kill herself with his night stand gun. Fortunately for her she lived. He was never arrested for anything. His wife said she tried to commit suicide and told cops he had nothing to do with it. The cops then came to his house and took all of his guns. After all was said and done and he was not charged with anything he asked for his guns back. The police chief told him "if you want your guns back sue us". So for not doing anything wrong or charged with anything he had to hire an attorney and after a year and $5,000 he finally got his guns back. So as far as CCW in NJ is concerned I want no part of it.

So you're going to sit there and justify gun control, while chastising MA residents because of handgun compliance BS?

-Mike

 

[PaulD]

Sure not ignoring the ease of getting thrown in jail if I had one and I used it. Especially in this state. You have no idea what the prosecuters in this state are like! A friend of mines wife tried to kill herself with his night stand gun. Fortunately for her she lived. He was never arrested for anything. His wife said she tried to commit suicide and told cops he had nothing to do with it. The cops then came to his house and took all of his guns. After all was said and done and he was not charged with anything he asked for his guns back. The police chief told him "if you want your guns back sue us". So for not doing anything wrong or charged with anything he had to hire an attorney and after a year and $5,000 he finally got his guns back. So as far as CCW in NJ is concerned I want no part of it.

It sounds like there are some conflicting laws in your state. You should stop talking and do something about it.

 

[vicpinto]

As far as am concerned I can't afford to spend $2,000 a month to buy 2 guns every month for 12 months so the law really doesn't effect me or other people I know and if you knew anything about NJ law there is paperwork you can file if you really want to buy more than 1 gun a month so there really isn't any one gun a month law. So as I quote you "don't throw stones". And advice for your friend. If the process is over 90 days that he has been waiting. Hire an attorney.

My God. That's the problem. You have to defend ALL liberties... not just the ones that affect you. You are no different than them...

 

[Tara]

My God. That's the problem. You have to defend ALL liberties... not just the ones that affect you. You are no different than them...

Very much this.

 

[sig2009]

Don't get caught by the ATF doing that. If you're selling guns for money, you're a "dealer" as far as they're concerned, and need an FFL01. It doesn't matter if you use a dealer for the transfers to your customers.

Sorry but the law in your state says I can sell up to 4 per year if I become a resident.