ATTENTION: Dealers and those who buy from them

[GSG]

I'm not leaving without a fight for my rights.

+1

but really, we are ground zero for gun rights, they should bring the fight here.

Here's the problem: the NRA is trying to fix laws on a national scale. They want caselaw put in place that will help as many of the 300 million Americans as possible. Mass. gun owners want to see their own screwed up laws fixed. Those two don't always line up, because Mass. is so screwed up and complicated that a pro-gun case for Mass. gun owners may not even apply to or affect the rest of the country, which would be wasted money for the NRA's national agenda.

Going back to the OP, I'm trying to understand how this sale could take place. In order to make a sale, the dealer would have to have the firearm in inventory, or place an order with his distributor for that particular model. Is the AG expecting that the dealer won't be careful enough when obtaining inventory?

You're forgetting consignments and transfers; some transfers the guy buys a gun online or something from another state, a more common one in Mass. is they run out of 4 FTF's and need a transfer done between two people. In any of those situations a lack of attention to detail can bite the dealer in the butt if the gun doesn't match up with the regs for some reason, even for something very minor as others have said like grip, finish or something else.

Heller/McDonald allows us to reset a host of REALLY BAD case law, but there is a host of other REALLY BAD case law and legal opinion here in MA that is completely irrespective of the 2nd Amendment.

There's Mass. case law that completely ignores/misses/forgets Mass. gun law and other Mass. caselaw.

That right there is a bad business decision. The AG reg's were in place before the Heller decision, so I am not sure if that decision would apply here.

Heller had to do with a much more restrictive ban than the AG regs. In Mass. you can walk into a store and buy a handgun provided you jump through all the hoops, in DC you couldn't even have one in the city unless it was registered with them in the 70's. Kinda like an AWB...

Regulations similar to the AGs are being challenged across the nation in the wake of Heller.

The few other states with approved lists aren't rigged the way that the ones in Mass. are. The approved lists are also very minor IMO compared to the biggest hurdle you guys face in Mass., licensing. From the Heller case:

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/07-290.pdf

Apart from his challenge to the handgun ban and the
trigger-lock requirement respondent asked the District
Court to enjoin petitioners from enforcing the separate
licensing requirement “in such a manner as to forbid the
carrying of a firearm within one’s home or possessed land
without a license.” App. 59a. The Court of Appeals did
not invalidate the licensing requirement, but held only
that the District “may not prevent [a handgun] from being
moved throughout one’s house.” 478 F. 3d, at 400. It then
ordered the District Court to enter summary judgment
“consistent with [respondent’s] prayer for relief.” Id., at
401. Before this Court petitioners have stated that “if the
handgun ban is struck down and respondent registers a
handgun, he could obtain a license, assuming he is not
otherwise disqualified,” by which they apparently mean if
he is not a felon and is not insane. Brief for Petitioners
58. Respondent conceded at oral argument that he does
not “have a problem with . . . licensing” and that the District’s
law is permissible so long as it is “not enforced in an
arbitrary and capricious manner.” Tr. of Oral Arg. 74–75.
We therefore assume that petitioners’ issuance of a license
will satisfy respondent’s prayer for relief and do not address
the licensing requirement.

Does "arbitrary and capricious" sound familiar? Licensing a right is in effect taking it away, especially considering what you have to go through to get or maintain one in some Mass. towns, and the people who've been prosecuted as a result of a license simply expiring.

The regs absolutely hurt dealers in MA. There's any number of threads asking "which non-compliant handgun do you want" and I know there are some I would have bought by now if they were easier to find.

Dealers would also make more money if they had more available guns to buy, even the cheaper ones. The whole system in Mass. has made it so that only the most devoted law abiding citizens with financial means can own guns. In my state I see people in FFL's all the time buying a gun just to keep in a nightstand or dresser. They don't want ninja training or the hassle of a license, they just want peace of mind in their homes, or to take their grandkids to the range. Sometimes it's an emergency, something bad happened and they need a cheap gun ASAFP. A HiPoint or Lorcin makes perfect sense when you're raising a couple of kids and living poor; a $50-$200 safety course, $100 license, doctor's letter, reference letters, scheduled interview and 4-6 week minimum wait for a restricted to the point of being worthless LTC all make lawful self defense impossible in Mass.

 

[Squished]

After reading all this thread, and it took a while, this is what I want to know, and it's sort of a rhetorical question.

There are certain Sigs I cannot buy because their grips are different. i.e. they have walnut grips, blackwater grips, whatever. The gun is IDENTICAL.

There is nothing that stops me from buying a "listed" Sig, and then going to put on the walnut or Blackwater grips.

By AG's logic, would my Sig now be deemed "unsafe" and "non-compliant" in MA because I put grips from the non-compliant model onto my listed Sig? After all, it's the only distinguishing factor that made the firearm non compliant in the first place.

 

[JayD]

You can do whatever you want to your gum after ot is purchased. A dealer just could not sell that model to you outright.

 

[MassMark]

In a perfect world, folks would be held accountable for bastardizing their oath to uphold, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America....Martha, her cronies and 99% of the politico are guilty as charged. Treasonous lot....

 

[Squished]

You can do whatever you want to your gum after ot is purchased. A dealer just could not sell that model to you outright.

I completely realize and understand that. But I'm saying, think of the logic behind it. The dealer can't sell the gun because it's not on the list and not deemed safe. However, it's OK for you to create the gun after it leaves the dealers possession. It's technically now "unsafe" according to the AG, but it's OK for you to have. The logic just isn't there, it makes no sense.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Last time the AG tried to go after a dealer for violating the reg (not the EPOS law IIRC), the AG no showed in court.

I bet the same thing would happen if this goes down the way the OP describes. It's not about the dealers. It's about creating a media frenzy by busting a bunch of dealers selling 'illegal guns'.

Here's my guess: The Dems have been ghoulishly exploiting tragedies, and so far have failed to get any new restrictions passed. Now they want to change it up and see if a nice tin-foily 'conspiracy' involving multiple dealers that need to be 'reigned in' will work for them.

By AG's logic, would my Sig now be deemed "unsafe" and "non-compliant" in MA because I put grips from the non-compliant model onto my listed Sig? After all, it's the only distinguishing factor that made the firearm non compliant in the first place.

The regulations have nothing to do with safety or logic. They don't want us to have guns.

 

[P-14]

The regulations have nothing to do with safety or logic. They don't want us to have guns.

This. And the sting op is to remove the opportunity to let law abiders get more.

 

[GSG]

You can do whatever you want to your gum after ot is purchased. A dealer just could not sell that model to you outright.

They also couldn't transfer it to anyone else afterwards.

The dealer can't sell the gun because it's not on the list and not deemed safe. However, it's OK for you to create the gun after it leaves the dealers possession.

I believe GOAL did a 66-10 request (similar to FOIA) for all of the emails and records related to the GCA 1998 in Mass. In short, they were looking to ban as many guns as they possibly could through the "consumer safety" laws. It worked.

 

[cb1]

After reading all this thread, and it took a while, this is what I want to know, and it's sort of a rhetorical question.

There are certain Sigs I cannot buy because their grips are different. i.e. they have walnut grips, blackwater grips, whatever. The gun is IDENTICAL.

There is nothing that stops me from buying a "listed" Sig, and then going to put on the walnut or Blackwater grips.

By AG's logic, would my Sig now be deemed "unsafe" and "non-compliant" in MA because I put grips from the non-compliant model onto my listed Sig? After all, it's the only distinguishing factor that made the firearm non compliant in the first place.

You're missing the whole point of the AG's regs. They're not actually about "safety". The point of the regs is to reduce the number of guns available in MA under the guise of "safety". At its core it is about control. It is a backdoor handgun ban. Safety has nothing at all to do with it.

 

[rwl1955]

You're missing the whole point of the AG's regs. They're not actually about "safety". The point of the regs is to reduce the number of guns available in MA under the guise of "safety". At its core it is about control. It is a backdoor handgun ban. Safety has nothing at all to do with it.

Yup. Remember who concocted this backdoor gun ban, Scott Harshbarger

 

[Mass-diver]

Yup. Remember who concocted this backdoor gun ban, Scott Harshbarger

Yup, the stated goal was to ban cheap, unsafe, Saturday night special type guns. Of course, it ended up banning the sale of a pistol widely carried by MA PDs, which pretty much expose what a fraud this whole thing is....

 

[Squished]

I understand that it's only a guise falling under "safety." I'm just pointing out that with a little common sense the regs don't make sense. There's little ground to stand on if it was ever challenged in court(which is where this conversation was heading). It would be up to the AG to prove that the gun with walnut grips was unsafe where as the gun with the rubber grips was safe.

 

[drgrant]

After reading all this thread, and it took a while, this is what I want to know, and it's sort of a rhetorical question.

There are certain Sigs I cannot buy because their grips are different. i.e. they have walnut grips, blackwater grips, whatever. The gun is IDENTICAL.

Not necessarily. There are sigs with MA Part numbers that have special SKUs. Normal sigs don't have the ma**h*** in the barrel hood. The MA ones do, so that's usually the tip off. If I bought a Blackwater, or an Elite, or whatever, it doesn't come with a ma**h*** barrel. It also doesn't come with an MA part number/SKU, either.

MA Dealers typically will not sell anything that doesn't have an M part number, unless its Pre-98 serialed stuff. The one exception is the Mosquito, the MA Mosquito is the exact same POS everyone else gets... because even the free state version of that gun is larded up with 9000 safeties.

There is nothing that stops me from buying a "listed" Sig, and then going to put on the walnut or Blackwater grips.

By AG's logic, would my Sig now be deemed "unsafe" and "non-compliant" in MA because I put grips from the non-compliant model onto my listed Sig? After all, it's the only distinguishing factor that made the firearm non compliant in the first place.

Depends on the dealer doing the transfer. I don't think most are going to care about the grip panels on it, but I could be wrong. If that was the case then every dealer in MA that ever sold a P series sig with a Hogue rubber on it could get sent to jail. (Or fined heavily, depending on whose regs he's supposedly violating).

I am unsure if grips are a compliance issue. The only case I know of where they normally come into play is the target gun thing on the AG's regs side.... EG, that's why all the Smith 22As sold new in MA have that "fruity mc gay gay" block of wood target handle on them, because S+W is using the AG's regs target exemption to avoid having to put an LCI or mag disconnect on that model.

-Mike

 

[milktree]

Not necessarily. There are sigs with MA Part numbers that have special SKUs. Normal sigs don't have the ma**h*** in the barrel hood. The MA ones do, so that's usually the tip off. If I bought a Blackwater, or an Elite, or whatever, it doesn't come with a ma**h*** barrel. It also doesn't come with an MA part number/SKU, either.

Sorry about the thread drift, but... what's the "ma**h*** in the barrel hood"?

 

[TWtommers]

Sorry about the thread drift, but... what's the "ma**h*** in the barrel hood"?

Loaded chamber indicator. Its a small hole that allows you to see the casing of a round in the chamber, if one is present.

 

[drgrant]

Sorry about the thread drift, but... what's the "ma**h*** in the barrel hood"?

There is a half moon cutout at the end of the barrel hood of every "Sig P series, MA compliant" handgun. This is so that you can supposedly see whether or not the gun is loaded, you can see the cartridge rim/casehead through this little hole even when the slide is closed. The S&W M&P series pistols have the same kind of notch in their barrel hoods, although its a slightly different shape. Also known as a "Loaded Chamber Indicator". The LCI is required by the dumb AG's regs.

Here's an example.... (gun is a P229M in this pic, and is unloaded... so hence it is "dark" there., otherwise you would see silver or brass)

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx169/delta10mm/ma**h***-crop.jpg

-Mike

 

[TWtommers]

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx169/delta10mm/ma**h***-crop.jpg

I know where I'm heading for a snack

 

[pdm]

I know where I'm heading for a snack

By the time you get there, I bet his Ma**h*** will look more like this:

View attachment 13898

 

[drgrant]

Sadly nothing in that picture exists anymore. I sold that P229 and the goldfish were eaten, and I don't know what the heck happened to the Pez dispenser. Some of the hot chocolate mix might still be around, though.

-Mike

 

[maee]

It sounds like Deval's smoking gun will be a dealer that transfers a used pistol with warn parts bringing the trigger pull to a deadly 9 lb...

So all dealers need to buy Dept. of Weights and Measures certified trigger pull scales...which Mass will kindly not provide, doh!

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk

 

[jar]

Pez? Seriously, dude?

A Pez dispenser is a great teaching aid for basic pistol.

 

[Dench]

Pez? Seriously, dude?

Pez is yum-o, guy.

 

[Bill Katt]

It sounds like Deval's smoking gun will be a dealer that transfers a used pistol with warn parts bringing the trigger pull to a deadly 9 lb...

So all dealers need to buy Dept. of Weights and Measures certified trigger pull scales...which Mass will kindly not provide, doh!

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk

Plz. Don't give 'em any more bright ideas.

 

[Squished]

Not necessarily. There are sigs with MA Part numbers that have special SKUs. Normal sigs don't have the ma**h*** in the barrel hood. The MA ones do, so that's usually the tip off. If I bought a Blackwater, or an Elite, or whatever, it doesn't come with a ma**h*** barrel. It also doesn't come with an MA part number/SKU, either.

MA Dealers typically will not sell anything that doesn't have an M part number, unless its Pre-98 serialed stuff. The one exception is the Mosquito, the MA Mosquito is the exact same POS everyone else gets... because even the free state version of that gun is larded up with 9000 safeties.



Depends on the dealer doing the transfer. I don't think most are going to care about the grip panels on it, but I could be wrong. If that was the case then every dealer in MA that ever sold a P series sig with a Hogue rubber on it could get sent to jail. (Or fined heavily, depending on whose regs he's supposedly violating).

I am unsure if grips are a compliance issue. The only case I know of where they normally come into play is the target gun thing on the AG's regs side.... EG, that's why all the Smith 22As sold new in MA have that "fruity mc gay gay" block of wood target handle on them, because S+W is using the AG's regs target exemption to avoid having to put an LCI or mag disconnect on that model.

-Mike

I completely see your point and I was just more venting as to how ridiculous some of the little compliance issues are. Like the case of the S&W 22A's, it's asinine to have to designate it as a target model to get around a regulation.

 

[milktree]

There is a half moon cutout at the end of the barrel hood of every "Sig P series, MA compliant" handgun. This is so that you can supposedly see whether or not the gun is loaded, you can see the cartridge rim/casehead through this little hole even when the slide is closed. The S&W M&P series pistols have the same kind of notch in their barrel hoods, although its a slightly different shape. Also known as a "Loaded Chamber Indicator". The LCI is required by the dumb AG's regs.

Ugh... There's so many other ways to make a loaded chamber indicator, that is by far the dumbest.

 

[Supermoto]

Ugh... There's so many other ways to make a loaded chamber indicator, that is by far the dumbest.

actually its the best way, since it does not add any additional crap to the gun. LCI is a stupid idea to begin with

 

[boilermaker]

Ugh... There's so many other ways to make a loaded chamber indicator, that is by far the dumbest.

But isn't it the cheapest? That is what the companies are looking at. I always viewed it as the cheapest way around the AG requirement.

 

[dwarven1]

So? Did anything actually happen this weekend?

 

[salesman]

So? Did anything actually happen this weekend?

I got drunk.

 

[Squished]

I got drunk.

I farted. On multiple occasions this weekend.