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ATF intends to reclassify and ban "armor piercing" ammo including M855
- Thread starter Synyster
- Start date
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MachineHead
NES Member
Is there any litigation that could fight this decree by the ATF? Or at least help delay it until it is heard by the courts?
I wonder if ATF's longstanding interpretation of the statute that M855 is AP has ever been challenged in court? Probably not because they exempted it almost immediately.
I wonder when they'll start outlawing anything over 3k fps? And making that "exception for LE" bullsh!t excuse....
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litigate the ATF into nonexistence....that would be a start.
That was the old panic price. I'm thinking 500 now just because online supplies have dried up.
I'm actually kidding about the whole thing but sadly I'll probably start getting PMs in a few days with people looking to buy.
Hell, there's already someone in the classifieds looking for gen 4 Glocks and wanting to trade 500rds which I could have got at Walmart today for about $220.
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Precision Point Firearms
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...e-Ban-xm855-Green-Tip-NO-LONGER-TAKING-ORDERS
the_shootist
Banned
And what to stop me from saying "Come and get it" ?
Mass-diver
NES Member
Found some m855 online this morning for 0.50/round (it was .30 yesterday ). Figured I'd pick up a couple battle packs - NOPE - place that had been shipping to MA for years and years, no longer does.
I have had this same problem with a few of my long time suppliers. Ugg...
StevensMarksman
the_shootist
Banned
They're playing right into the MA AG's hand. I don't blame them really. These are regular people trying to make a living. Shipping to MA threatens their livelihood. Would we like them to show more sack and challenge the legality of the crap that MA is spewing? Sure! Should we expect them to threaten their livelihood and freedom to do it? Probably not!
Varmint
NES Member
how do you cook a lobster? Slowly, so it doesn't realize what's going on til it's too late.
Banning all 5.56 ammo at once will draw attention.
The day of M855 is over. In the interim, and while others are distracted, stock up on XM193 and write your reps...this is not about the ammo, it is a round-about way to attack that "damned black rifle" and for the foreseeable future, 5.56 as a caliber is screwed...
I bet PSA is regretting free shipping this weekend...As an aside, they still have XM193 ammo cans for $159 w/free shipping.
Does anyone have metrics on how many rounds of M855 sold yesterday?? It must be at least 100,000,000... It will be interesting to see if vendors honor this weekend panic buying prices...I can picture them on Tuesday morning getting back into the office and checking their order inbox....
I bet PSA is regretting free shipping this weekend...As an aside, they still have XM193 ammo cans for $159 w/free shipping.
Does anyone have metrics on how many rounds of M855 sold yesterday?? It must be at least 100,000,000... It will be interesting to see if vendors honor this weekend panic buying prices...I can picture them on Tuesday morning getting back into the office and checking their order inbox....
ATF tried something similar about a year and a half ago. Public reaction forced them to reconsider. There is a link in this tread with contact info foR ATF. Their internal policy is to respond to EVERY letter/email. Flood them.
Imo this is tied into the rifle/pistol ruling. Let's be frank, people have turned the SBR issue into a joke wither the AR Pistol. Personally I'm fine with that. government flunkies don't like being embarrassed. The 'use' ruling is a result of that and this r classification is as well. Sort of an "I'll show you" juvenile act. This is by no means set in stone. Write them and write everyone. If you roll over we lose.
Mass-diver
NES Member
The owner emailed me right away and was apologetic. He suggest I ship to friend in a nearby state. He said they are temporarily suspending shipping to MA while they try to examine the law. I was thinking about posting in the members area to see if there are resources I can point him towards.
Even if they can't ban it all, just increasing the price (to a couple bucks a round) would make lots of antiguners very happy. Even at $.50/round it's hard to get new shooters into ARs, unless they are wealthy. The average working class person isn't going to jump into ARs at these prices.
I think a HUGE amount of ammo sold yesterday. A couple sellers I contacted today got back to me within 5 minutes. These guys are working Sunday for sure.
I ended up getting of case of some Israeli stuff that I guess is not too bad (M193).
Whole thing sucks!
NHCraigT
NES Member
If anyone is looking:
LINK: http://www.brownells.com/ammunition/rifle-ammo/5-56mm-xm855-rifle-ammunition-prod44665.aspx
GO TO THE BOTTOM of the List = It Says 600 Round Packs still available.
$269.99
Use Coupon Code J2K to get FREE Shipping
LINK: http://www.brownells.com/ammunition/rifle-ammo/5-56mm-xm855-rifle-ammunition-prod44665.aspx
GO TO THE BOTTOM of the List = It Says 600 Round Packs still available.
$269.99
Use Coupon Code J2K to get FREE Shipping
Mass-diver
NES Member
Ya it's IMI. I've been shooting just lake city pretty much exclusively for a while, so I'll see how this stuff runs.
the_shootist
Banned
.45 a round....that used to be on the high side a few days ago. I'm on the fence
CWulf
NES Member
So I sent ATF a letter and I will call my rep when it stops snowing some time next week but I am unclear on the process. Is this ban a done deal that kicks in on March 16th or is that date just when the comment period ends and the ban will come sometime after? I read through the 17 page document and not being a lawyer or a bureaucrat I was not clear on how this works.
Agreed...Money better spent on building a 9mm AR if you don't have 5.56 stockpiled. The time to buy 5.56 for .32 cents/round is over..at least for the foreseeable future. Prediction: next time this week, even XM193 and other "common" 5.56 variants will be gone. I've wanted to build a 6.8 AR for a while- now that ammo prices are almost on par, Ill have to look into it hahaha
Don't just read message boards, instead read the text of 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17), the law BATFE is enforcing.
Assuming M855 meets "(B)(ii)" above it ha always qualified as AP under the law. To defer controversy, when the law passed BATFE used the "a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes" exception to temporarily put M855 and SS109 out of scope, but now they think intent has changed.
If Federal introduces SS109a1 by reducing the jacket weight to 24% of projectile weight, this would be legal ammo under the law, even if the new design turns out to be even more armor piercing than M855. 18 USC § 921(a)(17)](B) isn't about performance, just materials used.
---Update---
It almost seems from re-reading the BATFE document that they are saying the steel insert meets definition (i) of AP, "a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron,brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium;", which doesn't seem correct given that the "core" of the bullet is mostly lead?
The 41P proposal isn't dead, just moving slowly. One factor is that this wasn't just trusts, but all non-individual NFA transfers (corporations, LLCs, etc).
They can't arbitrarily ban ammo, what they can do is enforce the law:
18 USC § 921(a)(17) said:
Assuming M855 meets "(B)(ii)" above it ha always qualified as AP under the law. To defer controversy, when the law passed BATFE used the "a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes" exception to temporarily put M855 and SS109 out of scope, but now they think intent has changed.
If Federal introduces SS109a1 by reducing the jacket weight to 24% of projectile weight, this would be legal ammo under the law, even if the new design turns out to be even more armor piercing than M855. 18 USC § 921(a)(17)](B) isn't about performance, just materials used.
That is a good question. The law as passed doesn't make a distinction about “armor piercing ammunition” performance, but rather specifies bullet construction -- either M855 & SS109 are FMJ and 25% of the weight is the jacket, or not. If the bullet doesn't meet this criteria (or the exotic metal criteria), the law doesn't apply.
XM193 has a thinner jacket, almost certainly does not qualify as AP under Federal law.
---Update---
It almost seems from re-reading the BATFE document that they are saying the steel insert meets definition (i) of AP, "a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron,brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium;", which doesn't seem correct given that the "core" of the bullet is mostly lead?
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Seriously! The only reason I have any stocked up is because it was cheap where I was buying it.
the_shootist
Banned
Agreed. Panic buying just sends prices skyrocketing. I'm going to stand down from buying any more AR ammo.....I have plenty of large caliber rifle ammo and the firearms to shoot it. If the SHTF, I'll simply use the VZ2008's and the SKS's...maybe even the Garand....the 30.06 round will blow holes in anything
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