Amazing video of cop getting shot on Front Sight website

Martlet said:
No kidding. I am all for due process and citizens being given every possible doubt, but some cases really should result in one behind the ear behind the court room.
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I agree, and IMO we should use .22LR to avoid costing the taxpayer too much. Actually, the cost of a single round of cheap .22LR ($.04) is worth more than this scumbags life. We should televise it on Pay Per View with proceeds for the families.

Too logical to ever happen, though.
 
Martlet said:
The video is disturbing. I'm torn on whether the usage of it bothers me. It bluntly gets the point across, and if that saves one life then it's done a service.
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I don't think it's so much the fact that it exists but the placement and context. It'd be one thing if it was shown in a classroom somewhere but to use it for advertising material is pretty low.... It's almost like they're saying "Come to our facility or you could be like this guy... " kinda scummy.

-Mike
 
SecondAmdFirst said:
What do the police regs say for warning before using deadly force? Not knowing the rules, I would warn them once, if they don't drop it, fire two in the chest.
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It depends on his department's force policy, etc. I would guess that if he had shot the guy while he was rummaging around in the truck for the rifle, he would have been within his rights at that point. Before that it's somewhat up in the air, although I bet he would have been justified tasing or OCing the guy, no problem. Part of what is missing was what led up to the traffic stop. Was this guy just running from the police? or were they trying to pull him over for just a traffic infraction?

FWIW though, there is a reason LEOs tend to use tasers against belligerent people.... whether justified or not... and this video basically shows the "why" behind that thinking. (FWIW I'm not saying that all such uses are justified, but I can easily see why LEOs use the "If subject is a pain in the ass, then goto taser" logic is employed. Things go downhill quickly without control. )

-Mike
 
drgrant said:
It depends on his department's force policy, etc. I would guess that if he had shot the guy while he was rummaging around in the truck for the rifle, he would have been within his rights at that point. Before that it's somewhat up in the air, although I bet he would have been justified tasing or OCing the guy, no problem. Part of what is missing was what led up to the traffic stop. Was this guy just running from the police? or were they trying to pull him over for just a traffic infraction?

FWIW though, there is a reason LEOs tend to use tasers against belligerent people.... whether justified or not... and this video basically shows the "why" behind that thinking. (FWIW I'm not saying that all such uses are justified, but I can easily see why LEOs use the "If subject is a pain in the ass, then goto taser" logic is employed. Things go downhill quickly without control. )

-Mike
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A news article said the man was speeding, at up to 98 mph, and took quite a while to pull over. That is probably why he immediately wanted him out of the car with his hands up.
 
I saw this a couple of weeks ago and was horrified for that officer and his family. I get e-mail offers
from Frontsite and this was one of them. I did not know the outcome ( but assumed the officer died )
so I e-mailed them back and asked. I was disgusted to hear this happend in 1996 and that piece of
shit is still breathing air. Why does our justice system allow someone like that, with 100% clear
evidence of his crime, the ability to be alive all these years after being convicted.

When I watched this the first time, I had trouble sleeping that night ( literally ).
 
I'm so disgusted... don't know why I watched, only myself to blame. What I expected, I don't know but that just ruined my day. Won't be able to forget that anytime soon
 
It will be a long time before I get the Officer's screams out of my head. Using this video for closed police training is one thing. Using it to generate business doesn't sit well with me.
 
Is this the one where the cop stops a guy, who then steps out of his truck with a rifle and shoots the poor cop through the windshield while it's caught on the cruiser's camera? I still ain't looking to find out.
 
drgrant said:
It depends on his department's force policy, etc. I would guess that if he had shot the guy while he was rummaging around in the truck for the rifle, he would have been within his rights at that point. Before that it's somewhat up in the air, although I bet he would have been justified tasing or OCing the guy, no problem. Part of what is missing was what led up to the traffic stop. Was this guy just running from the police? or were they trying to pull him over for just a traffic infraction?

FWIW though, there is a reason LEOs tend to use tasers against belligerent people.... whether justified or not... and this video basically shows the "why" behind that thinking. (FWIW I'm not saying that all such uses are justified, but I can easily see why LEOs use the "If subject is a pain in the ass, then goto taser" logic is employed. Things go downhill quickly without control. )

-Mike
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Unfortunately this is an example of what the taser was meant for. Which is when they have crossed the line to justify force but have not done so to justify lethal force. This was not someone talking back. This was someone who had already committed assault. I think this was a text book case on when to actually use a taser. He had enough cause after the assault to do so and the rummaging through the car was icing on the cake. Had he shot at him at that point, it would have been premature. But tazing him was within bounds. Especially if tazing granny for spouting off is within bounds for sure.
 
Because he didn't have a taser, I wouldn't have had a problem if the officer dropped the D-bag when he first started running at him. The guy "could" have been on pcp or any other drug...the officer had no way of knowing. The officers safety should have come first.

Now, after seeing the results, if an officer is in a similar situation without a taser i certainly hope he drops the guy. He'd be getting a "not guilty" from me if it went to court.
 
tele_mark said:
Is this the one where the cop stops a guy, who then steps out of his truck with a rifle and shoots the poor cop through the windshield while it's caught on the cruiser's camera? I still ain't looking to find out.
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More than likely. Many of the other ones like this, the LEO lives... not in this case. [sad2]

-Mike
 
SecondAmdFirst said:
I really wouldn't support using the taser in this case. The guy had a rifle, clearly he needed to be put down like the rabbid dog that he was.
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What me and TF were talking about, was tasing the guy before he even went for his rifle.

-Mike
 
salesman said:
Because he didn't have a taser, I wouldn't have had a problem if the officer dropped the D-bag when he first started running at him. The guy "could" have been on pcp or any other drug...the officer had no way of knowing. The officers safety should have come first.

Now, after seeing the results, if an officer is in a similar situation without a taser i certainly hope he drops the guy. He'd be getting a "not guilty" from me if it went to court.
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http://230grain.com/showthread.php?t=67368
This is why I don't think that would be a fair shake. At the link, you will find a story about a guy, who was pulled over for driving a stolen car, but alas, it was not stolen. He was bi-polar so may have, though it was never seen by witnesses by the 13 witnesses, including other cops, acted erratically. But at the end of the day, an innocent man was gunned down for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. So yeah, getting it right is important. Getting it right isn't easy, but it is important to get it right. An innocent man's life may be at stake. Sometimes the innocent man is the civilian. Sometimes it's the cop. Neither one deserved to die here. But saying the cop gets the free pass because he's a cop is wrong. What happens if cops raid my house on a drug warrant and I don't know their cops and open fire, killing one of them. It turns out they got the wrong house, I wasn't engaging in illegal activity and had no reason to think the raid was cops. Should I get a free pass? Would I get a free pass regardless of how you feel about should? One standard should apply to all of us.
 
Moral of that video? Learn to shoot under pressure.

Was it disturbing? yes

Was he outgunned? yes

Was it shameful to use the video as an advertisement? Absolutely
 
terraformer said:
http://230grain.com/showthread.php?t=67368
This is why I don't think that would be a fair shake. At the link, you will find a story about a guy, who was pulled over for driving a stolen car, but alas, it was not stolen. He was bi-polar so may have, though it was never seen by witnesses by the 13 witnesses, including other cops, acted erratically. But at the end of the day, an innocent man was gunned down for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. So yeah, getting it right is important. Getting it right isn't easy, but it is important to get it right. An innocent man's life may be at stake. Sometimes the innocent man is the civilian. Sometimes it's the cop. Neither one deserved to die here. But saying the cop gets the free pass because he's a cop is wrong. What happens if cops raid my house on a drug warrant and I don't know their cops and open fire, killing one of them. It turns out they got the wrong house, I wasn't engaging in illegal activity and had no reason to think the raid was cops. Should I get a free pass? Would I get a free pass regardless of how you feel about should? One standard should apply to all of us.
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Terra-

I was commenting on what I was with my own eyeson the video. What I saw was a guy who would not obey an officer and then charge at him. It's cut and dry to me. The link you posted isn't a similar situation...which in my original post I said in a similar situation without a taser I certainly hope he drops him.

I believe that an officer (or any person) in that situation is justified. If it goes to court and I'm on the jury I'm hanging it. If that's "letting them off the hook" I'm ok with it.

I'd also find that you would be justified it the cops broke down your door and didn't identify themselves.

Brian
 
tele_mark said:
Is this the one where the cop stops a guy, who then steps out of his truck with a rifle and shoots the poor cop through the windshield while it's caught on the cruiser's camera? I still ain't looking to find out.
Click to expand...

Worse then that, Officer pulls perp over, perp is aggitated and gets out of the truck screaming and yelling, perp charges Officer at one point, lots of yelling back and forth. Perp goes back to truck and gets a rifle out of this truck, Officer says mutliple times " put the gun down ", shooting starts ( not sure who fired first, but believe it was the perp ). Shots exchanged, perp charges officer ( who was obviously already wounded ) and more shots exchanged. Perp reloads and charges officer again. The worse part is you hear the officer, he has a microphone on, and you can hear him screaming for his life. Very disturbing and if I had the choice knowing what I know now, I
wouldn't have watched it. It will stay with you if you do.

I have always respected LEO's, but watching something like this and I say thank you to any one that potentially puts their life at risk just going to work and doing a job.

I agree, a good video for LEO's to watch, but very poor taste for a business to use.
 
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drgrant said:
It depends on his department's force policy, etc. I would guess that if he had shot the guy while he was rummaging around in the truck for the rifle, he would have been within his rights at that point. Before that it's somewhat up in the air, although I bet he would have been justified tasing or OCing the guy, no problem. Part of what is missing was what led up to the traffic stop. Was this guy just running from the police? or were they trying to pull him over for just a traffic infraction?

FWIW though, there is a reason LEOs tend to use tasers against belligerent people.... whether justified or not... and this video basically shows the "why" behind that thinking. (FWIW I'm not saying that all such uses are justified, but I can easily see why LEOs use the "If subject is a pain in the ass, then goto taser" logic is employed. Things go downhill quickly without control. )

-Mike
Click to expand...

The guy was clocked doing 98mph on an interstate, and the officer pursued him from there onto the small back road.

And the incident occured in 1998, most departments did not have access to tazers then.
 
terraformer said:
http://230grain.com/showthread.php?t=67368
This is why I don't think that would be a fair shake. At the link, you will find a story about a guy, who was pulled over for driving a stolen car, but alas, it was not stolen. He was bi-polar so may have, though it was never seen by witnesses by the 13 witnesses, including other cops, acted erratically. But at the end of the day, an innocent man was gunned down for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. So yeah, getting it right is important. Getting it right isn't easy, but it is important to get it right. An innocent man's life may be at stake. Sometimes the innocent man is the civilian. Sometimes it's the cop. Neither one deserved to die here. But saying the cop gets the free pass because he's a cop is wrong. What happens if cops raid my house on a drug warrant and I don't know their cops and open fire, killing one of them. It turns out they got the wrong house, I wasn't engaging in illegal activity and had no reason to think the raid was cops. Should I get a free pass? Would I get a free pass regardless of how you feel about should? One standard should apply to all of us.
Click to expand...

Terra....seeing what was on the tape, I believe he would have had a legitimate fear for his life. Thus, if I were on a jury, would never convict him of any wrongdoing. It's not that cops get a free pass, but in THAT SITUATION, he would be justified for fearing mortal danger.
 
Wow what a disturbing video. I'm kind of shocked that the cop didn't do anything when the individual charged him (night stick, or pepper spray). When the cop saw him loading a gun, and started to point the muzzle at his location doesn't that give him the right to use deadly force? RIP.
 
MikeRizz said:
Worse then that, Officer pulls perp over, perp is aggitated and gets out of the truck screaming and yelling, perp charges Officer at one point, lots of yelling back and forth. Perp goes back to truck and gets a rifle out of this truck, Officer says mutliple times " put the gun down ", shooting starts ( not sure who fired first, but believe it was the perp ). Shots exchanged, perp charges officer ( who was obviously already wounded ) and more shots exchanged. Perp reloads and charges officer again. The worse part is you hear the officer, he has a microphone on, and you can hear him screaming for his life. Very disturbing and if I had the choice knowing what I know now, I
wouldn't have watched it. It will stay with you if you do.

I have always respected LEO's, but watching something like this and I say thank you to any one that potentially puts their life at risk just going to work and doing a job.

I agree, a good video for LEO's to watch, but very poor taste for a business to use.
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Thanks for the summary. Think I'll pass on watching it still. May the poor guy RIP.
 
BadBoyBilly said:
Wow what a disturbing video. I'm kind of shocked that the cop didn't do anything when the individual charged him (night stick, or pepper spray). When the cop saw him loading a gun, and started to point the muzzle at his location doesn't that give him the right to use deadly force? RIP.
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Exactly what I was thinking. At that point in the video I was expecting him to take the guy to the ground. That video just reminds me of what kind of crazies there are out there. Scary stuff.
 
that video is heart breaking. It will be with me for a long time. I have always admired officers for what they did. Too many people dont understand what these men and women are faced with, and willingly at that. Thank you to all LEO and military men and women.
 
After reading the comments in this thread, I've decided to not click on the link out of respect. If that man were a family member of mine I would not be happy about it being used in that manner.
 
SecondAmdFirst said:
My god that was probably the worst video footage I have ever seen! It was in absolute horrible taste to use this in an advertisement and I hope these people go out of business. The only place I could see showing that video would be in training LEOs in a private setting. Just absolutely horrible!
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As horrific as it was, one thing is still worse.
Why is this maggot still awaiting execution after 12 years!
Isn't it pretty friggin' obvious that this guy is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt? [sad2]
What state did this happen it?
 

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