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Actual Situation

Skald

Skald

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Ok, I am here in Jacksonville, FL and it turns out that some nut was at the bus stop waiving a gun around and aiming it at people.

Now, with the way people are, would this be a situation that would warrant drawing and firing at the person? In my eyes I see it as yes. He hasn't shot anyone yet, but has a gun out and making threats/acting like he would/will.

After hearing this I told the GF 'and you wonder why I want to have a CCW' and she was 'I never wondered why'.
 
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Legal Answer: Depends on state law.

Personal Answer: AM I threatened and personally in fear of my life due to his actions. If it's not pointed in my direction and I can "exit stage left", that is the right answer and drawing/firing would be indefensible.
 
Same old answer...If you have the time to think about it and wonder if you should, you probably shouldn't, because you have the time to leave and dial 911.
 
He is pointing gun at random people. This happened in Florida which did pass a 'Stand Your Ground' law, and I would consider someone pointing/waving a gun and threatening to kill people as 'in fear of my life', which I think most sane people would agree.

As far as running, the doc who did my surgury said is a HUGE NO. He couldn't say enough times that I am NOT to run as to risk medical problems (at the moment though I am walking the rehab people said that it will take me a year+ to have the muscles that keep my hip in place, and that I will live with the risk of my hip popping out).

Dreppucci: The person is making threatening actions/inonations at random people. Those people who have seen me know I am the kind of person you will notice moving. My instict would have been to draw, fire then immediatly call 911 and after being detained etc ask for a lawyer.
 
Here it goes....

If you saw him pointing it at another person, was "certain" that he was going to shoot them and discharged your weapon in order to protect the life of another you have a decent chance at ending up in the clear. Don't get me wrong, you very likely get arrested and your weapon confiscated (for ballistics and exam at least). Hopefully the 1) the perp was the same sex/religion and race as you and 2) DA in the area you defended didn't need to get elected this year and would drop the case against you once you were able to ARTICULATE the facts of the situation, to include your level of training I'm sure. You also would probably be paying a lawyer if not for criminal defense then for civil defense as we all know that every neighbor to the pusbag would come out and say what a great human being he was. So,a few years later you would get your gun back and hopefully still have your job, house and relationship.
I don't mean to be a prick, but this is really how it works in this state. Make sure that if you use lethal force, it's worth it (like you or a loved one) and you can specifically state why life was threatened and how there were not any other options. Having a gun pointed at me by a whackjob would meet my personal threshold. That being said, if I was sitting on the park bench with my daughter, he'd have a couple or 3 holes in him and yours truly would be writing another type of statement :)
Thanks for putting up with my rambling.......
 
Night Trooper,

Anytime, but the thing is this did not occur in Massachussets where criminals have more rights and protection than us, but down in Florida where they do have a 'stand your ground' law.

[The Florida measure says any person "has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm."
/QUOTE]

I am going to be taking a class at the local range that actually goes over all the Florida Laws reguarding lethal force and such (and also getting my GF her CCW permit, and god it is cheap here $70 for the nra class on basic pistol and then $117 for the CCW)
Click to expand...
 
Yeah, I caught the Florida connection when I reread your post after I posted. Sounds like a good concept. Wish we even had one of the Castle Laws here. Citizens have to explain why they couldn't have escaped their homes if lethal force used on a home invasion!
 
Makes me glad I'm moving that as far as self defense goes the haze on'to shoot-not to shoot' becomes a bit clear.

Someone in my situation (fully arthritic, bad hip, bad spine, not able to run) in all reality can not run away without medical risk (I think at last count my doc told me not to run a million times as the chances of me popping my hip increase dramatically).

I have already found a indoor range and the people at this one are friendly and pretty down to earth (and funny, when I told them I was from Mass and wanted to know what I had to do to transfer my CCW permit to FL they asked 'You have those there?' and I go 'You pretty much have to know God' he was then 'So, what is he like?').
 
IIRC, there is a book published on just the FL gun laws. Your NRA instructor should be able to point you to it. I hear it is well worth owning, written by a pro-gun lawyer.

Sounds like your medical situation would "cut you more slack" than the average person.
 
Other factors must be taken into consideration. What is the surrounding area like? Can you discharge a firearm and be assured of not only hitting the intended target but not endangering others in the are. Calling 9-11 might make more sense if you are not in immediate fear. Not an easy desicion when you are not on the scene and trying to make a judgement call based on a few sentences. Hopefully the idiot didn't have a pellet gun or one of the replica guns out in the street.
 
One should be careful -- very careful -- about displaying a weapon while in civilian clothes and in a hot zone. The responding troops will focus on the weapon and, even in the best of circumstances (where a clothing description of what the "good guy" is wearing has been broadcast), you will be at some risk of being mistaken for a hostile.

If you are in such a situation and decide that firing is appropriate, holster as soon as possible, take out the most official ID you have, and hold it above your head with two hands, facing the doorway.
 
RKG said:
One should be careful -- very careful -- about displaying a weapon while in civilian clothes and in a hot zone. The responding troops will focus on the weapon and, even in the best of circumstances (where a clothing description of what the "good guy" is wearing has been broadcast), you will be at some risk of being mistaken for a hostile.

If you are in such a situation and decide that firing is appropriate, holster as soon as possible, take out the most official ID you have, and hold it above your head with two hands, facing the doorway.
Click to expand...

Doesnt this go against convention, that you should keep your weapon at the ready in case of further aggression by associates of the person you downed? Being in a 'hot zone' as you put it, I would rather stay armed and at the ready until the calvary arrived and then announce myself in a loud booming voice indicating my every move, I.E. I'm re-holstering, I'm walking backwards with my hands above my head, etc....
 
Wow

RKG you make a very good point that i have often thought of,
when the cops arrive "who's the nutcase" they point to you as well
as the nutcase.

Hey the Rhode Island cops shot one of their own off duty cops trying
to help out....... You gotta be CRAZY to draw, hit the road unless
you are really in danger of get blasted yourself....Get behind cover and stay
there.

Its your call,

JimB
 
Just because Florida does not require you to retreat when threatened from a place where you have the legal right to be does not mean that is the best course of action.

If it had been me, I'd split ASAP to cover. Doubly fast if my family is with me. Once behind cover, call 911, assess and take action. Action could be go out and engage, stay behind cover and observe, or engage from cover if danger close.

It all depends.
 
clinotus said:
Doesnt this go against convention, that you should keep your weapon at the ready in case of further aggression by associates of the person you downed? Being in a 'hot zone' as you put it, I would rather stay armed and at the ready until the calvary arrived and then announce myself in a loud booming voice indicating my every move, I.E. I'm re-holstering, I'm walking backwards with my hands above my head, etc....
Click to expand...

I don't think so. By definition, you're done shooting: the bad guy is either down or fled. The problem is, the responders don't know that (you would be surprised at how sparse -- and often how incorrect -- the info coming over the dispatch channel can be about an "in progress" incident) and they don't know you. All they know is that the call is something like "man with a gun" or "shots fired" and all they will see when they walk in is the gun.

Don't ask me all of the details, but a pretty comprehensive study was done a while ago about a number of blue-on-plainclothes shootings in a jurisdiction where off-duties were required to carry their weapon, shield and gamewell key at all times. In a number of cases, the off-duty was showing his shield either in a pocket clip or on his belt or on a neck chain. The conclusion was that the blues saw only the gun in his hand. The conclusion was that, assuming you're in this situation and you can't re-holster for some reason, be sure that the shield is in the same hand as the gun and showing toward the door. (Indeed, for a while, Bianchi even made a badge clip that had sort of a ring device in the back so you could slip it over a finger on your weak hand.)

When the rule I've advocated was implemented by a change in the Patrol Guide -- i.e., reholster, hold your shield in you hands and your hands above your head, and face the door -- the number of blue-on-clothes incidents tumbled to near zero.
 
What happened to this guy? Did someone call 911? I have a relative that's some kind of kingpin in the Jacksonville PD. Give me a date and location and I'll see if I can find out what happened to the guy.
 
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Gamewell makes the call boxes on phone poles, as well as fire alarm pull boxes.

My guess is that "gamewell key" refers to the key to the call boxes that USED TO BE on phone poles in all the large cities. Not sure if Boston still has any that are in use.
 
LenS said:
Gamewell makes the call boxes on phone poles, as well as fire alarm pull boxes.

My guess is that "gamewell key" refers to the key to the call boxes that USED TO BE on phone poles in all the large cities. Not sure if Boston still has any that are in use.
Click to expand...

1. Good guess.

2. City the had the study done wasn't Boston, and it was a while ago.
 
If I'm in fear for my life....

Draw...Yell, STOP...If he doesn't - Shoot him to the ground... Verify he is no longer a threat...Scan to make sure there are no other threats. Holster weapon. Call 911, while adminstering whatever rudimentary first aid I can. Wait to be arrested. SAY NOTHING TO THE POLICE. Call the firearms attorney, whose card I keep in my wallet. Get ready for the legal fight.


If you hesitate to think about the legal fights that are sure to come - maybe criminal, definately civil - you won't live to fight them.

(These are things that a competent firearms instructor will impart on students, but you have to take the training courses.)

Carrying a gun and being armed are two very different things.
 
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Again, my insticts in a case like that would be to draw and fire. Make sure he had no friends then reholster and call 911 immediately and wait for the cops.

And it was either Friday the 3rd OR Thursday the 2nd as far as the dates go.
 

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