Yesterday at the range

[andy t]

So, I finished up with my practice session yesterday, and while cleaning my gun, I noticed a guy shooting at an empty piece of cardboard that is used to attach targets too. Being more of a defensive shooter, my first thought was that he was trying some new technique or something...Curiosity got the better of me, so I had to ask. The answer was rather sobering...This gentleman, having a rather busy schedule simply wanted some trigger time. He didn't even bring any targets with him, and figured that as long as the shots were landing on the cardboard, it was allright. It also turned out that he has ABSOLUTELY NO knowledge of MA safe storage laws, despite having kids !!! Despite the fact that he says he grew up with guns. Nor, has he heard of GOAL.
It makes me wonder how many more gun owners like him are out there?
I really wish we could educate more people to make sure they are responsible, and knowledgeable when it comes to all aspects of gun ownership.

Andrew.

 

[Twigg]

Did you tell him about this forum ?

 

[andy t]

Unfortunately, I forgot to mention Northeastshooters. I did tell another member about us last Saturday.

Andrew.

 

[Scrivener]

Sounds like someone we'll read about in the papers after his kids get into trouble with his guns...........

 

[EddieCoyle]

I meet people like this all the time. There's lots of them out there.

 

[jhrosier]

So, I finished up with my practice session yesterday, and while cleaning my gun, I noticed a guy shooting at an empty piece of cardboard that is used to attach targets too. Being more of a defensive shooter, my first thought was that he was trying some new technique or something...Curiosity got the better of me, so I had to ask. The answer was rather sobering...This gentleman, having a rather busy schedule simply wanted some trigger time. He didn't even bring any targets with him, and figured that as long as the shots were landing on the cardboard, it was allright.

As a knowledgeable and responsible shooter, you are an ambassador for our sport.
OFFER, but don't insist, to help new shooters.
Many folks show up at the range without all the stuff they need.
I always carry spare targets and offer them and the use of my stapler.
It's a good way to break the ice and maybe turn a casual shooter into an active member of our community.

It also turned out that he has ABSOLUTELY NO knowledge of MA safe storage laws, despite having kids !!! Despite the fact that he says he grew up with guns. Nor, has he heard of GOAL.
It makes me wonder how many more gun owners like him are out there?

The key words are gun owners, not shooters.
Gun owners have never been notified of the changes to the MA laws in the last ten years, in any effective manner. If a person has not been active in out hobby, it is entirely likey that they are not aware of the changes.

I really wish we could educate more people to make sure they are responsible, and knowledgeable when it comes to all aspects of gun ownership.

Andrew.

Don't wish, just do it! Get prepared by learning the facts and pass the knowledge along.
Thanks for volunteering, glad to have you on our team.

 

[K-DUB]

I meet people like this all the time. There's lots of them out there.

+1. It's shocking to me that other gun owners in this state can be so ignorant of what's going on around them. I try to take time to talk with them about safety/voting/GOAL/NES when I find them. I'm still fairly new to gun ownership, compared to some, but I try to learn as much as I can.

 

[Bandit]

So, I finished up with my practice session yesterday, and while cleaning my gun, I noticed a guy shooting at an empty piece of cardboard that is used to attach targets too. Being more of a defensive shooter, my first thought was that he was trying some new technique or something...Curiosity got the better of me, so I had to ask. The answer was rather sobering...This gentleman, having a rather busy schedule simply wanted some trigger time. He didn't even bring any targets with him, and figured that as long as the shots were landing on the cardboard, it was allright. It also turned out that he has ABSOLUTELY NO knowledge of MA safe storage laws, despite having kids !!! Despite the fact that he says he grew up with guns. Nor, has he heard of GOAL.
It makes me wonder how many more gun owners like him are out there?
I really wish we could educate more people to make sure they are responsible, and knowledgeable when it comes to all aspects of gun ownership.

Andrew.

Did He have Devil Patrick stickers on His car ?
The dipstick and His wife , probably held sign's for the Devil.

Bob

 

[Scrivener]

Gun owners have never been notified of the changes to the MA laws in the last ten years, in any effective manner. If a person has not been active in out hobby, it is entirely likey that they are not aware of the changes.

Oh, please - I heard that pathetic excuse for YEARS after the enactment of C. 180, usually from some clueless shotgunner or hunter who first became conscious (as opposed to being told) about it when he tried to buy ammo with an expired FID card.

Let's review:

1. The proposed language is touted by both firearms rights and anti-gun groups as being the most stringent gun control law in the nation;

2. The media - including national news - picks up on this.

3. GOAL and the NRA alert all their respective members - REPEATEDLY - to the threat this legislation poses to firearms owners in Mass.

4. The legislation PASSES, with yet more media coverage of it.

5. The law is so incompetently drafted that it needed emergency legislation to keep it from ruining Veterans' Day ceremonies, getting more media coverage.

6. More emergency legislation is required to keep from ruining re-enactments and to keep from flooding CHSB with FID renewals.

7. Cheryl Jacques runs for Congress based, in large part, on her authorship of C. 180.

8. Angus McQuillken runs for state senate - TWICE - based upon his work on C. 180 as Jacques' aide.

9. The FLRB is created with the enactment of C. 150 of 2004, passed to address some of the more abusive aspects of C. 180.

10. GOAL is constantly informing people, through its newspaper and its website, about C. 180 horror stories.

Now explain how anyone who isn't a hermit or wilfully, terminally obtuse, can NOT be aware of C. 180 over EIGHT years after its enactment?

And NO; petulant complaints by the above notwithstanding, the state is NOT required to send an emissary to your door to make you personally aware of those changes. Ignorance of the law has never been an acceptable excuse, especially not 8 years after the fact.

 

[FPrice]

This past summer I was at one of our local ranges using the trap range (with a large earthen berm as a backstop) for some pistol practise. Two guys come along and ask if they can shoot also. No problem. However they had no targets so they were just shooting at the berm. So far no safety problem. But listening to them (electronic earmuffs are great for keeping up with what is going on around you) the older man is the father and the younger one is the son trying to show dad how to shoot son's duty pistol, a P229 in .40 S&W. The dad is having problems with his aim. So I go to the back of my truck pull out a spare target stand and target and offer it to them. They are very appreciative and we get to talking. Turns out both are Air Force veterans (as am I) and the kid is an Amherst PD cop. Plus the father's ability to shoot improves tremendously with a defined target to aim at.

Not a real big deal but it was an opportunity to help some fellow shooters and build a little bit of good will. Oh, they also had one pair of earmuffs between them so the extra ear plugs I keep in my bag also helped.

 

[bpm990d]

Now explain how anyone who isn't a hermit or wilfully, terminally obtuse, can NOT be aware of C. 180 over EIGHT years after its enactment?

You just pegged a lot of gun owners. There are plenty of people that could care less about learning firearms safety, responsible ownership, political issues surrounding ownership or even what GOAL is. I agree that they are willfully ignorant and personally don't have a lot of sympathy for them.

B

 

[SKS Ray]

While some casual gun owners/shooters may be safe while at the range and at home, plenty leave guns in shoe boxes under the bed, stashed in a drawer, and other places that veteran thieves know where to look first. Then you have the glass door/wooden cabinet shooters that have semi autos and pistols on display for everyone to see including thieves.
When these types of houses are broken into and guns are stolen, its easy for gun grabbing politicians to point the finger at everyone.

 

[Pilgrim]

Then you have the glass door/wooden cabinet shooters that have semi autos and pistols on display for everyone to see including thieves.
When these types of houses are broken into and guns are stolen, its easy for gun grabbing politicians to point the finger at everyone.

I always find it interesting for someone (anyone) to blame the owner of a legal product when it is stolen from INSIDE his house, regardless of how it is stored.

On another forum, members were blaming another member for leaving his car running in his driveway while he went in the house and it got stolen. It was HIS fault someone came into his yard and stole his car !

Same thing with guns, if it's in my house and someone steals it, it's the THIEF'S fault, not mine.

 

[Scrivener]

On another forum, members were blaming another member for leaving his car running in his driveway while he went in the house and it got stolen. It was HIS fault someone came into his yard and stole his car !

And deservedly so.

Having a running, unattended motor vehicle stolen is eminently foreseeable. I have no sympathy for the cretin who was so negligent and wonder if the old statute about leaving cars running is still on the books.

His insurance company might have some reservations about paying a claim where the loss is directly attributable to such blatant carelessness.

 

[Pilgrim]

And deservedly so.

Having a running, unattended motor vehicle stolen is eminently foreseeable. I have no sympathy for the cretin who was so negligent and wonder if the old statute about leaving cars running is still on the books.

His insurance company might have some reservations about paying a claim where the loss is directly attributable to such blatant carelessness.

My point is that I, as a property owner, should not have to worry about how I store my stuff just because some bad guy might want it. It's almost as if I shouldn't wear a diamond Rolex because some guy might want it and take it and that it's my fault for tempting him.

Society has sunk so low that getting something nice is an action that is inciting people to steal it and we shouldn't do that. In other words we are now responsible for someone else's bad acts.

"Sorry, Mr Pilgrim, but you left your car running and that tempted my client Mr Badguy to steal it. You see he couldn't help himself...it was your fault. Oh and by the way, those guns you have in that glass case, shouldn't be there because Mr Badguy's little brother always wanted some just like that and if you don't lock them in a $2000 safe, he will come and take them. So be aware it'll be your fault if you leave them where they are and they get stolen."

Never mind that they are in my locked house. GRRRRRRRRRRR !

 

[jhrosier]

.... Ignorance of the law has never been an acceptable excuse, especially not 8 years after the fact.

Ignorance of the law is a simple fact.
Being annoyed by it doesn't help solve the problem.
Condemming casual gun owners because they are not pro-gun activists is not a realistic solution to the problem.
If we all try to do what we can to inform the casual gun owners and once a year hunters, it may have some slight effect.
I completely understand your frustration but I don't have a magic spell to make it go away, sorry.

 

[JonJ]

And deservedly so.

Having a running, unattended motor vehicle stolen is eminently foreseeable. I have no sympathy for the cretin who was so negligent and wonder if the old statute about leaving cars running is still on the books.

His insurance company might have some reservations about paying a claim where the loss is directly attributable to such blatant carelessness.

Excerpted from MGL C90s13:

§ 13. Precautions for Safety of Vehicle, Operator, and Passengers.

No person having control or charge of a motor vehicle, except a person having control or charge of a police, fire or other emergency vehicle in the course of responding to an emergency or a person having control or charge of a motor vehicle while engaged in the delivery or acceptance of goods, wares or merchandise for which the vehicle's engine power is necessary for the loading or unloading of such goods, wares or merchandise, shall allow such vehicle to stand in any way and remain unattended without stopping the engine of said vehicle, effectively setting the brakes thereof or making it fast, and locking and removing the key from the locking device and from the vehicle.

The keyword in this excerpt is "way". A private parking lot or driveway wouldn't cut it but.....
MGL C90s16A:

§ 16A. Unnecessary Operation of Engine of Stopped Motor Vehicle Prohibited; Exceptions; Penalty.

No person shall cause, suffer, allow or permit the unnecessary operation of the engine of a motor vehicle while said vehicle is stopped for a foreseeable period of time in excess of five minutes. This section shall not apply to (a) vehicles being serviced, provided that operation of the engine is essential to the proper repair thereof, or (b) vehicles engaged in the delivery or acceptance of goods, wares, or merchandise for which engine assisted power is necessary and substitute alternate means cannot be made available, or (c) vehicles engaged in an operation for which the engine power is necessary for an associate power need other than movement and substitute alternate power means cannot be made available provided that such operation does not cause or contribute to a condition of air pollution. Whoever violates any provision of this section shall be punished by a fine of not more than one hundred dollars for the first offense, nor more than five hundred dollars for each succeeding offense.
History
[History— 1972, 598.]

 

[Len-2A Training]

I share some of Scrivener's frustration, BUT . . .

- There are 17K GOAL members total!
- There WERE ~1.5Million (IIRC) LTC/FID holders prior to 1998. There are now ~300K LTC/FID holders.
- There were ~1000 gun dealers in MA prior to 1998, there are now ~400.
- Proven fact, most people do NOT read newsletters sent to them by their membership organizations.
- Many gun clubs poo-pooed the effects of Chapter 180 of the Acts of 1998. [I was Legislative Chairman of one such 300 member club at that time and resigned due to the lack of interest in learning what was about to happen to them.]
- Most people probably paid little/no attention to all the grandstanding by Queen Cheryl, Queen Angus, the news media about gun control.

Something about leading horses to water comes to mind here . . .

Not an excuse for ignorance, but it is an explanation of why it's so widespread.

 

[Scrivener]

My point is that I, as a property owner, should not have to worry about how I store my stuff just because some bad guy might want it.

Absolutely true - and absolutely irrelevant. Conduct should address reality; not what could/should/might be.

Here are two examples of cretins using your analysis (logic is NOT the correct term):

1. Moron mommy leaves car running - with CHILD in vehicle - while she "runs inside" to drop other child off. Local loon sees said vehicle running unattended and goes for a joy ride. No malice mind you; no Lindbergh Kidnapping, just a fruit loop taking advantage of the gross negligence of the vehicle's owner. Fortunately, no harm was done - THIS time. This was, IIRC, Newton or Needham - you know, one of those "safe neighborhoods"

2. Yuppie dad leaves his new yuppie SUV running in the city street while he dashes in to get his latte - did I mention this cretin also left his child in said unattended, running vehicle?

Those familiar with the real world will have anticipated the next chapter of this exciting tale, wherein a gentleman "known to the authorities" sees this gift for the taking and does so. When he sees the kid (IIRC), he throws it from the moving vehicle. Thank god for good car seats, 'cause dad was f***ing useless.

Then there are those incidents where kids knock the car out of Park into D or R, or release the brake, with motion - followed by an abrupt STOP - resulting.

Those parents are TSTL - a class that I believe includes anyone leaving a 2-ton vehicle available to anyone capable of simply opening the door and driving off.

JonJ - thanks for the statutes. 16A was the one I was particularly thinking of - I'm betting it has NEVER been enforced, especially now that we are in an era of self-indulgence where people run the car by remote starters for 10 - 20 minutes at a time just to "warm/cool the car before I get in."

 

[Executive]

The negligence of leaving a running vehicle, particularly one with a child inside, is one thing, but this attitude of making the victim of the crime somehow guilty is obscene. Why not make the owner of an expensive stolen vehicle responsible because he parked it in a "bad" area? He should have known better, right? This same logic would make a rape victim responsible because she wore provocative clothing.

 

[JonJ]

JonJ - thanks for the statutes. 16A was the one I was particularly thinking of - I'm betting it has NEVER been enforced, especially now that we are in an era of self-indulgence where people run the car by remote starters for 10 - 20 minutes at a time just to "warm/cool the car before I get in."

You're welcome.
You're right about the enforcement. With personal vehicles I have only seen it enforced after the fact like in those types of cases you pointed out. It is strictly enforced with commercial vehicles, TT units, T buses, school buses and the like.

Things would be so easy in life if people would just live by 2 simple words: COMMON SENSE.

 

[SKS Ray]

I always find it interesting for someone (anyone) to blame the owner of a legal product when it is stolen from INSIDE his house, regardless of how it is stored.

On another forum, members were blaming another member for leaving his car running in his driveway while he went in the house and it got stolen. It was HIS fault someone came into his yard and stole his car !

Same thing with guns, if it's in my house and someone steals it, it's the THIEF'S fault, not mine.

I hear what you're saying Pilgrim. But it does indeed suck that in today's society we as gun owners have to keep our guns under tight lock and key. I live in a very crowded city enviorment and when I go or get home from shooting I actually conceal the fact that I'm bringing rifle caes, gun bags, etc, to my truck by going in or out theback door into the driveway away from the people driving down the street who just might spy a gun case and say "hey, that dude has guns, lets hit that house someday."
Hence the reason every firearm I own no matter how crappy, old, or new, goes into a sheet metal cabinet. Even though my house has a good alarm system, if I had a glass door cabinet where thieves could run in and smash and grab my goods, I'd be screwed.
If today's thieves are brazen enough to break into a gun shop to steal firearms, imagine the delight when they get into a house where those guns are protected behind a simple pane of glass.
I remember one night at a party years back talking to a reformed thief and he told me a story how he broke into someone's house to steal some old antique rifles hanging on the wall because him and his friends were on a coke binge and figured they'd get good cash from a gun shop for them. Didn't matter to him the alarm system, the dogs, or the possibility of the owners being home. What mattered was he knew they were there in plain sight and easily accessible.
Unfortunately its crimes like those that give the gun grabbers fuel to fire their motions for new and more strict laws.

 

[PatMcD]

I always find it interesting for someone (anyone) to blame the owner of a legal product when it is stolen from INSIDE his house, regardless of how it is stored.

On another forum, members were blaming another member for leaving his car running in his driveway while he went in the house and it got stolen. It was HIS fault someone came into his yard and stole his car !

Same thing with guns, if it's in my house and someone steals it, it's the THIEF'S fault, not mine.

I agree with you 100%. It's called "blaming the victim". It should be enough that any guns I own are behind a locked door (several, in fact; the front door, the back door, the garage door). The guy breaking in is the problem, not me.

 

[Scrivener]

Why not make the owner of an expensive stolen vehicle responsible because he parked it in a "bad" area? He should have known better, right? This same logic would make a rape victim responsible because she wore provocative clothing.

Your analysis is a non sequitor. First, merely parking a car is not negligence. Second, you'd have to make the "rape victim" a naked woman spread on a blanket on a frat house lawn on Saturday night and you might be closer to the mark.

Note also the statute against leaving running motor vehicles unattended, regardless of their value or contents.

 

[Lynne]

I still get calls from people who didn't know their "good for life" FID died. When I tell them when the change occured, some of them say they moved prior to that and never got notified - others tell me they don't watch the news or read the papers. They haven't clue one as to what's going on in the world, unless they hear it from around the cooler that is. One guy that used to come in to my store prior to 9/11 didn't even know it had happened until 9/12.

To be honest, I have absolutely NO use for folks like that.

 

[reinbeau]

The negligence of leaving a running vehicle, particularly one with a child inside, is one thing, but this attitude of making the victim of the crime somehow guilty is obscene. Why not make the owner of an expensive stolen vehicle responsible because he parked it in a "bad" area? He should have known better, right? This same logic would make a rape victim responsible because she wore provocative clothing.

Yea, and is tied to the twisted logic behind burqas





Ok, it's a tangent

 

[Lugnut]

So may interesting points. The reality is- guns are not always a big part of every gun owners' lives. Some don't know the first thing about proper safety and other just don't pay attention to the damn laws. They change and God knows in MA they are a huge fur ball of riduculous and confusing words. I'll be honest... I think I know a fair amount but I don't know or understand half as much as someone like Scrivener does. Worse- do you really thing "most" LEO know the laws as well too? I really doubt it. Not making any excuses.. just trying to put the pieces together.

 

[Executive]

Your analysis is a non sequitor. [sic] First, merely parking a car is not negligence. Second, you'd have to make the "rape victim" a naked woman spread on a blanket on a frat house lawn on Saturday night and you might be closer to the mark.

Note also the statute against leaving running motor vehicles unattended, regardless of their value or contents.

Your interpretation of my argument as a non sequitur indicates that you missed the hyperbole of the post, which understandably does not come across well in this format. I am simply trying to say that Liberal Massachusetts is exceedingly lenient on criminals and tends to find excuses for criminal activity. I DO recognize that statute prohibits leaving motor vehicles running, and that leaving said motor vehicle running does in fact facilitate its theft. This does not make it OK to steal the vehicle!
As for the hypothetical naked woman on a blanket on a frat house lawn, you might want to check precedent here before offering such an example, counselor. Good discussion.

 

[dwarven1]

Folks, what does it matter HOW you feel about storing your guns? FACT: Some bastard is out there looking to steal them. Yes, it's agin the law. Yes, in a perfect world you wouldn't have to worry about it.

I've had my apartment broken into, I've had my car broken into... twice. I try not to offer up temptation to the low-life scum who make their living by stealing. Which means gun safes and keeping the doors locked, etc.

*shrug* It's not a perfect world, folks, and as long as Man inhabits it, it won't be.

 

[drgrant]

I always find it interesting for someone (anyone) to blame the owner of a legal product when it is stolen from INSIDE his house, regardless of how it is stored.

On another forum, members were blaming another member for leaving his car running in his driveway while he went in the house and it got stolen. It was HIS fault someone came into his yard and stole his car !

Same thing with guns, if it's in my house and someone steals it, it's the THIEF'S fault, not mine.

+1000.

I agree with you Pilgrim, I'm sick of the "blame the
victim" mentality as well.

This is evident when someone gets a gun stolen in a
free state vs a commie state like MA.

In a commie state you get a spanish inquisition as to
why/how the gun got stolen and wether or not it was
secured properly, etc. Like as if it's automatically
YOUR FAULT for the actions of a criminal!

In a free state the police treat a gun theft no different
than the theft of a car or TV set any other item. If
they manage to locate your gun (when they arrest the
guy that stole it, or his "customer") you might even get
the gun back! (In MA I highly doubt an owner would
ever get a gun back if it was recovered by an LE org...
someone can correct me if I'm wrong... )

-Mike