Who said you can't cc a 1911?

Zanshin33 said:
Here's a reason I own 3 stryker fire handguns and zero 1911's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdh2X9CDe38
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The guy says that a 1911 should not be used in combat or defensive situation because of tight tolerances. How many times do you have time to clean a gun after rolling on dirt during a fight? they should have tested both guns full of dirt, without clearing the slides. Besides, I would bet that most of us move around paved areas most of the time and dont go around rolling on dry mud with an open slide.
 
Confirmation bias is a possible explanation. It can get worse with experience and training with like minded people. Do you count 1911 failures as meaningful and Glock failures as a fluke?

What % of students in your classes use 1911s? If it is very low, you might subconsciously give more weight to any failures of the "special" guns.

Also, do your students clean their guns after a certain number of rounds?
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Yes, I have considered that.. this year, I am documenting the student numbers and types of guns as methodically as my ADHD will allow so I can "quintuple" check myself.
So far, we're up to six 1911s in all types of courses (except conference seminars, unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to do a formal count at the NES Conference last month). I have 5 of them with documented mechanical failures, including any that were involved in a 2 day course.

No, students don't clean their guns unless their gun dictates that they need to.

In the past, less than 10% of 1911's have made it through a 2 day course without mechanical failures. The numbers for the modern striker fired guns that we recommend (XDs, non-4th-gen-Glocks and M&Ps) are in excess of 80%.

I think the point several of you are missing is that the issue isn't that you will only need a few rounds to get through a defensive situation (If that is your argument, carry a revolver... it is much more reliable than any semi-auto). The point is that if the gun is more prone to failure under any plausible condition (dry, hot, dirty, unsupported platform, weak ammo, dirty ammo, etc, etc), then it is a less reliable gun. Given that everyone has the choice to pick their own defensive gun, it seems silly to pick one that is demonstrably less reliable. Add the fact that you could have a catastrophic user error that prevents the gun from operating AT ALL (leaving the safety on) and it really seems like a no-brainer to me. Yet, this thread is being repeated all over the internet... full of the same rationalizations, dismissals and bravado. That is what we are trying to stop... at least for the critically thinking new gun owner... it is too late for some.
If we continue to tolerate the Church of the 1911, too many new guns owners will Google "best defensive firearm" and potentially stumble into the legions of collectors, enthusiasts, throwbacks and automatons extolling the virtues of an outdated system that is inferior in every way except possibly precision capability (due to the short crisp trigger). With a very little education in the type of precision requirements plausibly needed in defensive situations and the capabilities of Modern Striker Fired guns, they can then come to the conclusion that the one small potential advantage is far out-shined by the known limitations and complexities of the 1911 system. All it takes is exposure to the truth and the modern advantages will speak for themselves.

How many 15 year old kids about to get their driver's licenses are looking at Amish Folks and thinking "Man, they really have their crap together! I can't wait to get my buggy!!"

-RJP
 
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Rob Pincus said:
I thought it was an "analogy"... but I gets those mixed up sometimes...

What I don't get mixed up is what guns actually work most of the time in the hands of thousands of students during thousands of days of training over the last 20 years.... specifically the thousands of guns in the hands of thousands of students over the past decade as a full time instructor averaging over 40 classes a year.
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Just a question could it be partially ammo cost? .45 is more expensive so people by the cheapest can find, 9mm is cheaper so people might buy slightly better quality for a course?
 
The guy says that a 1911 should not be used in combat or defensive situation because of tight tolerances. How many times do you have time to clean a gun after rolling on dirt during a fight? they should have tested both guns full of dirt, without clearing the slides. Besides, I would bet that most of us move around paved areas most of the time and dont go around rolling on dry mud with an open slide.
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Both guns were tested with dirt in them. Most of us move around on paved areas...that's fine, if you expect every single fight to go down on YOUR terms than you have yet to accept reality. It's called the Plausibility Principle. While most may not believe that it is very possible for this to happen, you have to admit that it IS plausible. No one said the gun had to be submerged in dirt. If you read the description in the video, the 1911 failed due to sand in the leaf spring under the exposed hammer of the gun. Take the dirt out of the equation. Take a walk in downtown Boston after it rains. Drop your 1911 in a puddle and see what happens. We all know there is all kinds of sediment and other nasty stuff in there that will potentially cause it to malfunction. Just because you are on pavement does not mean that that dynamic critical incident will occur on pavement. You could be walking down the middle of the highway...whats on either side of you for the most part? Median strips full of dirt mud and grass...you get attacked and you struggle for the gun...gun gets kicked into the dirt on the side of the road...like I said...Plausibility Principle.
 
derek said:
This should get interesting when the 60+ crowd rolls in after their afternoon naps. [grin]

I always advocate carrying what you are most familiar with, this usually is the weapon that the person is most proficient with. Which is why I sling carry my 16" Noveske around work.
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Winner!
Isn't the 1911 vs. The World arguement kind of like an AR vs. AK? I'm pretty sure no one is actually "right" and in the end it's what you're comfortable with. Carry what your good with, everything else be damned.
 
Shooting is fun for me , not work.

I probably shoot 50 times a year , sometimes I skip a week , sometimes I get out twice in the same week.
I bring a 1911 or 3 , and either a rifle or shotgun , usually my boring Bushmaster.

I do this because it's fun. And because I want it to be fun , I run an antique amish buggy of a platform. EIther a beat to death single stack Para , a PD sized Smith or a Sig 1911. It only has 8 shots , it's big , I have to police my brass or I couldn't afford to shoot them.

And I have become very comfortable with it/them. Because I practice a lot. because it's fun. In the event i point it at someone who is very bad I do actually trust my life to the fact that I will find the safety , hit my target very quickly until I decide to stop , and if something goes wrong I am able to correct it PDQ.

If I were outfitting a bunch of new guys , who were going to get a few hours of schooling a few times a year , I'd tell them to buy Glocks.

( all you competitive shooters , instructors , & ninja's know more than me , better than me. I really do appreciate you taking the time to share your experiences & wisdom )
 
And I have become very comfortable with it/them. Because I practice a lot. because it's fun. In the event i point it at someone who is very bad I do actually trust my life to the fact that I will find the safety , hit my target very quickly until I decide to stop , and if something goes wrong I am able to correct it PDQ.
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What a lot of people are missing in regards to Rob's comments about the safety are that during a dynamic critical incident the human body goes through a series of natural reactions. One of the internal reactions is a shunting of blood away from extremities. In simple terms, your body tries to retain as much blood to the core of the body as possible to keep you functioning. This results in a loss of fine motor skills. The switching on and off of the safety is something that can be easily rehearsed at the range, however, under critical incident stress, you may not be able to employ this seemingly simple practice. The best way to describe it is if you've ever had your foot "fall asleep" on you, and then you tried to walk down a flight of stairs. Something you do every day, but now you have this added stress which will affect your ability to perform that very easy function. The same thing happens while the body is in "fight or flight" mode.
 
"Fight or flight" is one of those mis-named things; It's really more apt to be called "Fight, Flight, or Freeze." Of course, no one really wants to mention that freezing up is as real and natural a reaction as the other two.
 
DRFTraining said:
What a lot of people are missing in regards to Rob's comments about the safety are that during a dynamic critical incident the human body goes through a series of natural reactions. One of the internal reactions is a shunting of blood away from extremities. In simple terms, your body tries to retain as much blood to the core of the body as possible to keep you functioning. This results in a loss of fine motor skills. The switching on and off of the safety is something that can be easily rehearsed at the range, however, under critical incident stress, you may not be able to employ this seemingly simple practice. The best way to describe it is if you've ever had your foot "fall asleep" on you, and then you tried to walk down a flight of stairs. Something you do every day, but now you have this added stress which will affect your ability to perform that very easy function. The same thing happens while the body is in "fight or flight" mode.
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If you have the motor skill to work the mag release or press the trigger, you have the motor skill to work a safety
 
DRFTraining said:
What a lot of people are missing in regards to Rob's comments about the safety are that during a dynamic critical incident the human body goes through a series of natural reactions. One of the internal reactions is a shunting of blood away from extremities. In simple terms, your body tries to retain as much blood to the core of the body as possible to keep you functioning. This results in a loss of fine motor skills. The switching on and off of the safety is something that can be easily rehearsed at the range, however, under critical incident stress, you may not be able to employ this seemingly simple practice. The best way to describe it is if you've ever had your foot "fall asleep" on you, and then you tried to walk down a flight of stairs. Something you do every day, but now you have this added stress which will affect your ability to perform that very easy function. The same thing happens while the body is in "fight or flight" mode.
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If you can work a trigger, align the sights, press the mag release, and hit the slide release, then you can also work the safety.

As you said in the Viking Tactics thread, you will default to your lowest level of training in a critical incident. If you devote your training time to mastering the 1911 platform by taking quality training and spending quality time at the range, then you will be able to work the safety.
 
With the proper thumb-over-safety grip on a 1911, how is it possible to not disengage the safety immediately after drawing? A little practice gives anyone an unconscious mastery of this basic skill.
 
DRFTraining said:
Both guns were tested with dirt in them. Most of us move around on paved areas...that's fine, if you expect every single fight to go down on YOUR terms than you have yet to accept reality. It's called the Plausibility Principle. While most may not believe that it is very possible for this to happen, you have to admit that it IS plausible. No one said the gun had to be submerged in dirt. If you read the description in the video, the 1911 failed due to sand in the leaf spring under the exposed hammer of the gun. Take the dirt out of the equation. Take a walk in downtown Boston after it rains. Drop your 1911 in a puddle and see what happens. We all know there is all kinds of sediment and other nasty stuff in there that will potentially cause it to malfunction. Just because you are on pavement does not mean that that dynamic critical incident will occur on pavement. You could be walking down the middle of the highway...whats on either side of you for the most part? Median strips full of dirt mud and grass...you get attacked and you struggle for the gun...gun gets kicked into the dirt on the side of the road...like I said...Plausibility Principle.
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Dillinger never had a problem
 
If you can bring an AR-15 up on target and take the safety off before engaging you can definitely do it with a 1911 too.

I'm not even a 1911 owner or 'fanboi'. I have no horse in this race. If the 1911 safety was clumsy the M&P's with external safeties wouldn't have been patterned after it.
 
bill o said:
With the proper thumb-over-safety grip on a 1911, how is it possible to not disengage the safety immediately after drawing? A little practice gives anyone an unconscious mastery of this basic skill.
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I find re-engaging the safety to harder than getting it "hot." Of course I spend time practicing it. - to the point I have a bit of fumble when I try the same drills with my Da/Sa Sig 228 - My thumb hesitates to wrap the grip .
 
Bill-O,

People screw it up all the time.

What a lot of people miss when they think they are smartly citing the finer motor skills that must be used in a defensive gunfight is that just because you CAN doesn't mean that you should want to need to... nor does it mean that you actually will when you need to. Why set yourself up with an extra liability?

-RJP
 
Rob Pincus said:
Bill-O,

People screw it up all the time.

What a lot of people miss when they think they are smartly citing the finer motor skills that must be used in a defensive gunfight is that just because you CAN doesn't mean that you should want to need to... nor does it mean that you actually will when you need to. Why set yourself up with an extra liability?

-RJP
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I agree, it takes extra training to do 3 things opposed to 2, but CCW is a compromise, size, power, capacity, and manual of arms. There is no one perfect ccw gun, some are willing to accept extra "liability" of a manual safety for a better trigger. Some will accept the "liability" of less power for an easier to conceal gun.
 
fubar said:
I find re-engaging the safety to harder than getting it "hot." Of course I spend time practicing it. - to the point I have a bit of fumble when I try the same drills with my Da/Sa Sig 228 - My thumb hesitates to wrap the grip .
Click to expand...

In what sense is it hard to re-engage the safety? Is your gunsmith heavy handed with the dimpling drill?
 
The day that my arms and hands feel like "pins and needles" upon being suddenly presented with a stressful situation, please, take all my guns away from me because I'm a useless piece of shit.

As far as the additional fine motor skills required in effectively bringing a (condition 1) 1911 into immediate action, I suggest taking long walks in the middle of the woods with it and drawing/ snicking the safety off at every slight noise you hear. Just be sure no one else is around because you're going to look like a psycho. You might also want to leave the chamber empty if your trigger discipline is crappy.

If I had even the slightest notion that I were going to have to fill my carry pistol with dirt, grime, sand, grass clippings, dog hair, sea salt etc... while using it to save my life, Yeah, Sure, I'd carry my GLOCK I guess. But I will most likely be in such close confines to my attacker at that point that I might as well just bite his voice box out, headbutt his nose in until it's flush with his spinal cord and call it a night.

I love the 1911 platform and I respect the GLOCK platform. I have way more trigger time with the former than the latter and I trust my Colt series '70 to do it's job if I'm still capable to do mine. Carry and train with whatever the hell you want and I'll continue to do so with what I want. If I'm ever found dead with a jammed 1911 by my side, then you can say "I told you so".

But I won't be able to hear you, so F U. ;)
 
45collector said:
If I had even the slightest notion that I were going to have to fill my carry pistol with dirt, grime, sand, grass clippings, dog hair, sea salt etc... while using it to save my life, Yeah, Sure, I'd carry my GLOCK I guess. But I will most likely be in such close confines to my attacker at that point that I might as well just bite his voice box out, headbutt his nose in until it's flush with his spinal cord and call it a night.
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/thread

If you're not willing to take the fight to this level when the situation presents itself you shouldn't be pulling a gun out in the first place. Leave that CCW at home and make 911 speed dial on your cell.

If a safety gives you that extra piece of mind that "I AM DESTROYING SOMETHING I BETTER BE RIGHT" then all the more power to you.
 
Rob Pincus said:
Carrying a 1911 as a self-defense gun is kinda like driving a 50 year old classic restored car as a daily driver to get you kids to school, your wife home with the groceries and you to/from work. Can you do it? Maybe... but WHY?

You can make all the "carburetors are tried and true!" and "it was good enough for my grand-dad" bravado bull**** statements you want... but, since you really need your car to work everyday, you probably drive fuel injected, modern automobiles. If you really needed your gun every day, you'd probably think about it differently...
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I should probably get rid of my 26 year old, twin carburetor, air-cooled dinosaur of a Beemer, then. Just as soon as it lets me down. Ought to happen sometime in the next 100,000 miles.
 
Ok ok just to be clear, this was only about CCW with a 1911, i heard from some people that it was difficult or not possible to CCW a 1911 at all or comfortably, and all im saying is directed to all that have had this bad info, that its realy not hard to do.
 
Supermoto said:
I agree, it takes extra training to do 3 things opposed to 2, but CCW is a compromise, size, power, capacity, and manual of arms. There is no one perfect ccw gun, some are willing to accept extra "liability" of a manual safety for a better trigger. Some will accept the "liability" of less power for an easier to conceal gun.
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well said bud...well said. :D
 
DRFTraining said:
The question is...why would you want to carry a 1911 for self defense in the first place?

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I carry a LCR, so I don't have a dog in this fight, but I did notice one thing in the video that caught my eye. When the Kimber owner was trying to clear that empty shell, (failure to extract I'm guessing?) he was tilting the pistol to the left, so the ejection port was angled upwards and gravity was working against him.

How many of these 1911 failures in classes/training can be attributed to user error vs straight up gun malfunction? What percentage of user error are you seeing with the striker fired gun failures, and how many are gun related malfunctions with these?
 
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