What is the definition of "direct control" in a vehicle?

[bostonasphalt2]

I don't keep any personally identifying info in my globe box. Registration and insurance cards in my wallet. But then NC makes both of those wallet card size.
This also ensures that if my car gets stolen and the thief gets pulled over he will get arrested at least for no registration/ insurance

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We aren't taking about NC, we are talking about MA, so your info here is irrelevant to the OP.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Like me tossing 3 packed range bags into the cab of my pickup. Sure. Why not? At least in a range bag the mags are not in the well and no round is in the chamber.

I'd say that is a stretch to call just tossing s gun on the back seat "direct control". There may not be any legal definition of it, but it also isn't terribly difficult to figure where it might be a good spot to draw lithe line between "direct control" and "not in direct control"

 

[Qwikdraw45]

==> Hmmm, just like when we go see the nice people at the FRB in Chelsea. Look around to see who's watching (including the video camera on the post in the parking lot). Drop mag/dump rounds from the cylinder. Clear chamber (if auto). Store firearm in one locked box. Store ammo in a separate case. Hope Sammy Sleazeball isn't lurking around to break into the vehicle, or Sally Soccermom doesn't see something "suspicious" and call the local Five-oh.

Ok I drive into Boston to meet with 'Juniors' law professor at Suffolk U. I park my car on Cambridge St. unholster my Glock, drop the mag, clear the round, fish it off the floor, then lock it in a approved locked container separate from the mag.

I'm fine except, I'm in full view of anybody passing by or looking out the window from an upper floor, or spotted by a police camera. If a guy with gun call comes in, the chances of getting ventilated by 10 panicky LEO's are real. "Sir I observed he had a gun and felt my life was in danger." ....efffing mass

 

[Spanz]

 

[sbi]

OK, so the conclusion is...?!

 

[Dennis in MA]

The above responses are on the right track.

First "direct control" is NOT defined anywhere in MGL, so there is no concrete definition to fall back on. Direct control in a MV refers to the LTC-holder basically (we believe) having it on their person, anywhere else is risky and speculative how the police or judge/jury would interpret that term.

I recall that night at the club-that-shall-be-unnamed when they brought in an atty that gave a definition of direct control. IIRC, you had a different one. And there were two cops in the club that gave yet DIFFERENT interpretations. I pretty much plotz'd myself at that point. Just too damned confusing.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I recall that night at the club-that-shall-be-unnamed when they brought in an atty that gave a definition of direct control. IIRC, you had a different one. And there were two cops in the club that gave yet DIFFERENT interpretations. I pretty much plotz'd myself at that point. Just too damned confusing.

That's the problem that Rob pointed out . . . whatever definition gives the police the most flexibility is the one they will use.

I remember that well, nice guy but full of bad info.

Please contact me directly as there are a few of us that want to hold a meeting of said club and either resurrect it or formally dissolve it and I'm the acting president of that defunct club. Whenever I can get the secretary to cough up a list of last known members I don't want to miss anyone. Likely to do this in the Spring.

 

[rblank]

So I'm curious and want to add a twist. I drive a pick-up (2011 Ford F250 to be precise), so therefore, I don't have a truck. What I do have is OEM, lockable storage under the center section of the front 40/20/40 bench and across the entire back seat.

I roll up to Juniors elementary school, park in the public street, remove firearm from holster, eject mag, and clear round. Put firearm in locked storage under the front seat, mag in locked rear seat storage and lock truck to pick up said spawn. ASSuming Sally Soccermom isn't peering in my truck during this time, what's the verdict?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

That's the problem that Rob pointed out . . . whatever definition gives the police the most flexibility is the one they will use.

The courts have already established there are two different standards for "under the influence" - one for drivers, which protects against arbitrary conviction and one for guns which has no BAC limit and no protections against arbitrary decisions that one is "under the influence". The appellate marsupials held this is because guns are more dangerous than cars. (WTF????)

 

[dwarven1]

My point. Try reaching into my pocket or console and see what telephone pole or other vehicle I just smeared your sorry ass all over looks like.

If I'm in control of the wheel, stereo, windows, locks, motion both forward and back, ect. How am I not in control of any firearm that is also within the confines of said space?

What part of "piss-poor interpretations of the law caused by different court cases resulting in conflicting case law" was unclear?

 

[drgrant]

The "direct controlledness" is assumed to be whatever interpretation can be used against you.

Tangentially related....

Say LTC guy is driving along and guy transfers his loaded handgun gun in center console (that his arm is resting on) and he is the only occupant in the car.

He gets pulled over for some stupid shit (let's say, tailight out, or some other standard fishing excuse to warrant a stop) and LEO asks about any firearms in a vehicle, let's assume guy tells the truth.

If the LEO aks the guy to get out of the car, can he pull a sleazeball move and claim that once that happens, he was no longer in control?

One of the reasons I avoid doing this (storing a gun off body) is because of this "crossing-of-the-bridge" issue. I feel like a bad LEO could pull a fast one and exploit
an LTC holder that stores his gun in this way.

My guess is sir doucheleo is not going to be impressed if we ask "Well, Officer, if I get out of the car as you wish, I will be breaking the law because my handgun is in this compartment. How do you want me to proceed?"

-Mike

 

[M1911]

What is the definition of "direct control" in a vehicle?

I am traveling to a place where I cannot carry in MA (university), but don't want to leave the house without my EDC. Can I keep it in a locked glove compartment while driving and while there?

The answer is no one knows. The SJC had a chance to clarify this during a recent case (Commonwealth v Reyes?), but instead chose to muddy the waters even further.

If it is on my hip, it is direct control. It it is in the trunk, it isn't direct control. Anything in between -- all bets are off.

 

[Asaltweapon]

Tangentially related....

Say LTC guy is driving along and guy transfers his loaded handgun gun in center console (that his arm is resting on) and he is the only occupant in the car.

He gets pulled over for some stupid shit (let's say, tailight out, or some other standard fishing excuse to warrant a stop) and LEO asks about any firearms in a vehicle, let's assume guy tells the truth.

If the LEO aks the guy to get out of the car, can he pull a sleazeball move and claim that once that happens, he was no longer in control?

One of the reasons I avoid doing this (storing a gun off body) is because of this "crossing-of-the-bridge" issue. I feel like a bad LEO could pull a fast one and exploit
an LTC holder that stores his gun in this way.

My guess is sir doucheleo is not going to be impressed if we ask "Well, Officer, if I get out of the car as you wish, I will be breaking the law because my handgun is in this compartment. How do you want me to proceed?"

-Mike

I have often thought of just that.

 

[USA]

If I am in the car/truck with my firearm on me or in my console then it's in my control.

If I step out of the car/truck then the gun is on me and still in my control.

I recall seeing that a factory glove box or console that is locked does not meet the requirements yet a separate storage container locked does. Go figure.

Doesn't the firearm and ammo have to be locked separately when you are not in direct control outside of you home/during transport?


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[Mike-Mike]

Doesn't the firearm and ammo have to be locked separately when you are not in direct control outside of you home/during transport?


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No, don't confuse MGL with FOPA.


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[Rob Boudrie]

Trigger lock: $5.00

Remington 11-87: $600

Look on the officer's face when responding to a medical call at your house when he sees the shotgun propped up against the wall has a trigger lock and he can't charge you for it: Priceless

 

[Coyote33]

What rules apply to pepper spray in a car?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

What rules apply to pepper spray in a car?

Pepperspray is unregulated for those over 18.

 

[JZ1018]

==> Hmmm, just like when we go see the nice people at the FRB in Chelsea. Look around to see who's watching (including the video camera on the post in the parking lot). Drop mag/dump rounds from the cylinder. Clear chamber (if auto). Store firearm in one locked box. Store ammo in a separate case. Hope Sammy Sleazeball isn't lurking around to break into the vehicle, or Sally Soccermom doesn't see something "suspicious" and call the local Five-oh.

Don't confuse MA storage laws with FOPA. In MA, there is nothing that says the gun must be unloaded or ammo locked up separately for "storage" in a vehicle or otherwise. However, if you start moving the vehicle, then "storage" becomes "transport" and anything not under your direct control must be unloaded.

 

[JZ1018]

It was mentioned earlier in this thread that a gun in the glove box is not considered under your direct possession. However, drugs found in your glove box are considered under your direct possession. It would be interesting to see a case where drugs and a gun were found in the glove box and see a prosecutor argue direct possession on one hand, but not in direct possession in the other.

 

[free]

No, it is that a gun in the glove box is not secure storage.

 

[Meehuel]

No, it is that a gun in the glove box is not secure storage.

This is where we go off into Massachusetts never never land. So the plastic Tupperware that our prized pistol was purchased in that left the LGS with a cable wrapped around the handle that a serrated kitchen knife would only need a minute with, that's better.

 

[Asaltweapon]

It was mentioned earlier in this thread that a gun in the glove box is not considered under your direct possession. However, drugs found in your glove box are considered under your direct possession. It would be interesting to see a case where drugs and a gun were found in the glove box and see a prosecutor argue direct possession on one hand, but not in direct possession in the other.

 

[robjax]

By the letter of the law. Locking the gun in a locked case , locked trunk, or other secure container will meet the requirement. As this would fall under transportation and storage in a vehicle. The prohibition of guns in schools refers to possession.

However, there is case law on this that is not supportive to us.

I am sure Rob or Len will be along shortly to fill you in on this.

- - - Updated - - -

Also we should move this to the law section.

to the locked trunk point....and I'm not sure if this is in the law or not, but my trunk can be accessed a couple of different ways as I'm sure many cars our there can be. The little lever to the left of the driver's seat I always lock and disable as well. The pass through in the back seat I also lock. And if there is a lever to let the seat fall forward as in my old car....all those access points to the trunk I lock too.

My current car I have the lever beside the driver's seat. That is locked. I also have the pass through in the back seat locked. To fold my back seat down you need to pull a handled in the trunk. My trunk does not have a key lock. It has to be opened either with the remote or the key and the levers inside the car.

 

[EJFudd]

to the locked trunk point....and I'm not sure if this is in the law or not, but my trunk can be accessed a couple of different ways as I'm sure many cars our there can be. The little lever to the left of the driver's seat I always lock and disable as well. The pass through in the back seat I also lock. And if there is a lever to let the seat fall forward as in my old car....all those access points to the trunk I lock too.

My current car I have the lever beside the driver's seat. That is locked. I also have the pass through in the back seat locked. To fold my back seat down you need to pull a handled in the trunk. My trunk does not have a key lock. It has to be opened either with the remote or the key and the levers inside the car.

Let's face it: The "locked in the truck" thing is an anachronism now in most cases.

 

[Len-2A Training]

to the locked trunk point....and I'm not sure if this is in the law or not, but my trunk can be accessed a couple of different ways as I'm sure many cars our there can be. The little lever to the left of the driver's seat I always lock and disable as well. The pass through in the back seat I also lock. And if there is a lever to let the seat fall forward as in my old car....all those access points to the trunk I lock too.

My current car I have the lever beside the driver's seat. That is locked. I also have the pass through in the back seat locked. To fold my back seat down you need to pull a handled in the trunk. My trunk does not have a key lock. It has to be opened either with the remote or the key and the levers inside the car.

We've been thru this too many times to count . . .

The way the locked trunk issue is legal is if nobody can access the guns from WITHIN the car without use of a key. It has nothing to do with a trunk release so that someone outside the car can access it. For many years now every car I've been in has a remote trunk release for the outside Access . . . not an issue.

If from INSIDE the car, all you need to do is pull a lever/button to open the pass-thru, that would NOT be a locked trunk wrt this law.

 

[robjax]

We've been thru this too many times to count . . .

The way the locked trunk issue is legal is if nobody can access the guns from WITHIN the car without use of a key. It has nothing to do with a trunk release so that someone outside the car can access it. For many years now every car I've been in has a remote trunk release for the outside Access . . . not an issue.

If from INSIDE the car, all you need to do is pull a lever/button to open the pass-thru, that would NOT be a locked trunk wrt this law.

Thanks for the clarification Len. I think I missed the target about the release in the trunk. It's not even relevant because it is inside the locked trunk. I was just noting the differences between my last car and the current car. For me I tend to go a bit overboard when transporting outside of my direct control. I lock the guns in cases and then cable lock all the cases through a hole in the metal work in the trunk. I try to never leave guns in the car unattended.

 

[EJFudd]

The way the locked trunk issue is legal is if nobody can access the guns from WITHIN the car without use of a key.

I guess I must have missed the countless times this was covered before. Did that come out of case law?

Every car I've owned for the past 20+ years had a truck release lever or trunk release button located inside the passenger compartment (irrespective of whether or not it had a "pass-through" or rear seat flip-down capability). Was that also a disqualifying feature regarding the legality of locked truck storage?

 

[bostonasphalt2]

No, it is that a gun in the glove box is not secure storage.

And I'd argue that a gun in the glovebox is also not in your direct control.

 

[PATRON]

When your standing at the urinal in a men's room,and going that is direct control.