-
If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
What is the definition of "direct control" in a vehicle?
- Thread starter sbi
- Start date
CrackPot
NES Member
I carry while driving on public roads at the university. If I need to get out of the car and go onto university property, I lock my gun in a lock box cabled under my passenger seat. I would not rely on a locked glove box. I would not leave the gun loaded when locked up. I would not handle the gun in a university parking lot. I do the transfer to the lock box clearly off school property.
That is what I do. I have no legal advice for you. I believe what I do is as safe as one can be in MA short of leaving the gun at home.
That is what I do. I have no legal advice for you. I believe what I do is as safe as one can be in MA short of leaving the gun at home.
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2009
- Messages
- 41,857
- Likes
- 79,509
For me "Direct Control" means that my left hand is at the 10 o'clock position and my right is grasping a 1911 and pressing it's side against the 2 o'clock position of the steering wheel. Both windows down.
Trigger discipline strictly enforced...
Trigger discipline strictly enforced...
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2007
- Messages
- 11,135
- Likes
- 1,600
now, my memory could be foggy, but I believe there was a court case or some such that basically said that a glove box was NOT ok. Also, from a practical standpoint, if you carry your car registration in the lockbox, then its obviously not a good idea.....
By the letter of the law. Locking the gun in a locked case , locked trunk, or other secure container will meet the requirement. As this would fall under transportation and storage in a vehicle. The prohibition of guns in schools refers to possession.
However, there is case law on this that is not supportive to us.
I am sure Rob or Len will be along shortly to fill you in on this.
- - - Updated - - -
Also we should move this to the law section.
However, there is case law on this that is not supportive to us.
I am sure Rob or Len will be along shortly to fill you in on this.
- - - Updated - - -
Also we should move this to the law section.
MisterHappy
NES Member
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2009
- Messages
- 28,404
- Likes
- 17,587
IANAL
also, I'm not Len or Rob, but......
AFAIK, A glove box is NOT considered secure.
A glove box is NOT considered "under your direct control."
Therefore, it is just about the worst place to put it.
If you don't want it on your person, get a separate metal box, and use that. Keep the mag out of it, and no ammo in the chamber(s); this way, you're within the law for both transport and storage. Most people will counsel that the box be secured to the vehicle, though that's Massprudence, not law.
99.99% of the time, the glove box will be no problem, as you're presumably not being pulled over and having your car tossed on a regular basis....but, the 0.01% of the time, when something may go wrong, is what you're guarding against.
also, I'm not Len or Rob, but......
AFAIK, A glove box is NOT considered secure.
A glove box is NOT considered "under your direct control."
Therefore, it is just about the worst place to put it.
If you don't want it on your person, get a separate metal box, and use that. Keep the mag out of it, and no ammo in the chamber(s); this way, you're within the law for both transport and storage. Most people will counsel that the box be secured to the vehicle, though that's Massprudence, not law.
99.99% of the time, the glove box will be no problem, as you're presumably not being pulled over and having your car tossed on a regular basis....but, the 0.01% of the time, when something may go wrong, is what you're guarding against.
The OP is actually asking the wrong question. He is referring to schools. So we DON'T want the gun to be in DIRECT CONTROL we want it to be stored or kept.
Direct control is when we are talking about possession. Which is exactly what is prohibited in schools.
This question falls under transportation and storage.
There are at least 2 cases
That come to mind.
The glove box case and amicus brief as well as the case where a guy got convicted for have ammo in his car on school grounds.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Direct control is when we are talking about possession. Which is exactly what is prohibited in schools.
This question falls under transportation and storage.
There are at least 2 cases
That come to mind.
The glove box case and amicus brief as well as the case where a guy got convicted for have ammo in his car on school grounds.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Asaltweapon
NES Member
If I am in the car/truck with my firearm on me or in my console then it's in my control.
If I step out of the car/truck then the gun is on me and still in my control.
I recall seeing that a factory glove box or console that is locked does not meet the requirements yet a separate storage container locked does. Go figure.
If I step out of the car/truck then the gun is on me and still in my control.
I recall seeing that a factory glove box or console that is locked does not meet the requirements yet a separate storage container locked does. Go figure.
The above responses are on the right track.
First "direct control" is NOT defined anywhere in MGL, so there is no concrete definition to fall back on. Direct control in a MV refers to the LTC-holder basically (we believe) having it on their person, anywhere else is risky and speculative how the police or judge/jury would interpret that term.
Since carrying is not legal on any school property, the question asked is not the right question to ask.
Per MGL, to be legal the gun must be stored out of the control of the people in the car (locked box), wisdom is that it be unloaded (as no court case has ruled definitively on this TTBOMK). The glove box issue was claimed by LE to be illegal for many years, and although they no longer actively claim that, it's risky. The CO convicted of illegal storage stored his loaded gun in his glove box and claimed his car was a "locked container" . . . judge didn't buy it and he was convicted, however they never addressed the glove box issue (defendant claimed glove box was locked, police claim otherwise).
The case (Worcester IIRC) of the student on a college campus with ammo visible in his car lead the judge to comment (I'm told not legally binding but could probably be used against another case) that even with a LTC (student had one), POSSESSION of ammo in a car on school property was illegal . . . not true in MGL, but who wants to fight that in court?
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2005
- Messages
- 47,516
- Likes
- 33,530
This demands a more precise answer:
- Under MGL any movement, even locked in a trunk of a car is "carry"
- MGL L269-10j bans carry on one's person, so it is technically legal to leave a gun in the trunk of a car as long as you never have it on your person on school property (ie, you cannot park, unholster, unload and store on school property)
- Few police know the difference. Fewer still will not pretend there is no difference.
- Cases have been dropped when defense counsel pointed this out. In one case, the PD responded by re-filing as a storage charge (the gun was unlocked in the passenger compartment). The courts have held that the passenger compartment of a locked car is not a locked case.
Even if they accepted it as locked, that does not get around the "unloaded" requirement. The beauty of a trigger lock is that the confiscated evidence (gun) remains locked unless the police go to the trouble of removing it by manipulation or force, in which case there will likely be a record o that action.
[FONT=&]COMMONWEALTH vs. Jason P. WHITEHEAD.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]No. 12-P-1970.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Barnstable. October 11, 2013. - March 25, 2014.[/FONT]
Trigger lock used while stored in a locked container is what I presume you are suggesting. A gesture of responsibility? I suppose as long as the lock doesn't prevent checking for clear, why cut into smoking and joking?
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I heard that while a glove box is NOT under your direct control for a gun, a glove box IS under your direct control when it comes to drugs?
If true, the definition of "Under Direct Control" changes to benefit prosecution.
If true, the definition of "Under Direct Control" changes to benefit prosecution.
Last edited:
Chris
NES Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2005
- Messages
- 13,388
- Likes
- 8,218
A retired lieutenant from Marlborough PD who used to do the law lectures regarding firearms in that area used to love to point this out. So, I suspect that 100% true or not, most of the police in that city operate under that assumption. I certainly can not verify this, nor did he have the cite.
This same instructor used to open his legal lecture with "Good Law should be clear, concise, ..." and then went on to say that MA gun laws are none of these. He attributed the quote to Justice Oliver Wendel Holmes. I'd love to use the quote, but I can't verify that either. (For those who don't know, Justice Holmes was from Massachusetts, so this quote, if correct, would make a fantastic argument at the gun hearings)
That said... Firearms must be unloaded and locked up PRIOR to entering school property unless you have written permission by the superintendent to be in possession. Given this state, I would err on the side of caution and make that locked container away from the passenger compartment or otherwise dedicated for the purpose, not a glovebox or center console as supplied by the OEM.
Ok I drive into Boston to meet with 'Juniors' law professor at Suffolk U. I park my car on Cambridge St. unholster my Glock, drop the mag, clear the round, fish it off the floor, then lock it in a approved locked container separate from the mag.
I'm fine except, I'm in full view of anybody passing by or looking out the window from an upper floor, or spotted by a police camera. If a guy with gun call comes in, the chances of getting ventilated by 10 panicky LEO's are real. "Sir I observed he had a gun and felt my life was in danger." ....efffing mass
I'm fine except, I'm in full view of anybody passing by or looking out the window from an upper floor, or spotted by a police camera. If a guy with gun call comes in, the chances of getting ventilated by 10 panicky LEO's are real. "Sir I observed he had a gun and felt my life was in danger." ....efffing mass
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2005
- Messages
- 47,516
- Likes
- 33,530
The law does not specify "superintendent". At MIT, permission is granted by the school PD for use of the target range, with specific requirements that the carrier must remain helpless to aggression at all times.
As to the first part - this is where the gun owner needs to have a solid grasp of the law to keep out of trouble. Get caught with a gun in the trunk on school property and it's a charge that will be dismissed with good legal counsel.... unless you say something stupid like "I put the gun in the trunk after parking my car since I did not want to carry inside the buildings". (sounds responsible, but it is actually an admission to a crime of "on one's person").
- - - Updated - - -
Unloaded, trigger, lock, trunk. Locked container - check. Unloaded -check. Hard for a police officer finding the gun to allege it was unsecured - double check. I keep a trigger lock in my car at all times just in case.
Correct, you are thinking of Reyes, a correctional officer at the Essex House of Correction. Apparently ratted out by a coworker or two. Locked glove box was not proper storage I think they jacked him up on.
OK, let me try to "clear" my question:
1. Since I cannot carry on school property, I am not going to have it on me at all, not even part of the way/drive to school, unless of course I am willing to pull over before reaching school grounds and un-holster it and lock it somewhere (see 2 below).
2. Now, why isn't a locked glove compartment considered a locked box, while a locked mobile container (metal, heavy metal, rock-solid metal...you name it) thrown in the trunk, where anyone getting access to the trunk can pick it up and walk away with it, is considered a locked box? The glove compartment itself is locked and it is inside a locked car. Under my logic, it is safer in a locked glove box than a separate box somewhere in the trunk. As far as I remember, the law does not say that the locked container must be attached to the car.
3. Back to "under direct control" - so the bottom line is that the only definition is on me, in a holster, not anywhere inside the car? Everything inside the car is under my direct control. As someone said - sure, if I exit the car and a firearm remains somewhere in the car, it is no longer under my "direct" control, but when I am inside the car, everything in it is under my direct control. Especially when the key to the locked glove compartment is in my pocket.
Thanks.
1. Since I cannot carry on school property, I am not going to have it on me at all, not even part of the way/drive to school, unless of course I am willing to pull over before reaching school grounds and un-holster it and lock it somewhere (see 2 below).
2. Now, why isn't a locked glove compartment considered a locked box, while a locked mobile container (metal, heavy metal, rock-solid metal...you name it) thrown in the trunk, where anyone getting access to the trunk can pick it up and walk away with it, is considered a locked box? The glove compartment itself is locked and it is inside a locked car. Under my logic, it is safer in a locked glove box than a separate box somewhere in the trunk. As far as I remember, the law does not say that the locked container must be attached to the car.
3. Back to "under direct control" - so the bottom line is that the only definition is on me, in a holster, not anywhere inside the car? Everything inside the car is under my direct control. As someone said - sure, if I exit the car and a firearm remains somewhere in the car, it is no longer under my "direct" control, but when I am inside the car, everything in it is under my direct control. Especially when the key to the locked glove compartment is in my pocket.
Thanks.
dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
I seem to recall Jon Green pointing out the contradiction in one of his classes. Both, of course, stemmed from different cases with different rulings.
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2005
- Messages
- 47,516
- Likes
- 33,530
The "direct controlledness" is assumed to be whatever interpretation can be used against you.
MisterHappy
NES Member
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2009
- Messages
- 28,404
- Likes
- 17,587
Asaltweapon
NES Member
My point. Try reaching into my pocket or console and see what telephone pole or other vehicle I just smeared your sorry ass all over looks like.
If I'm in control of the wheel, stereo, windows, locks, motion both forward and back, ect. How am I not in control of any firearm that is also within the confines of said space?
I don't agree with the stupid OEM storage areas but OK. You say it's alright to store my loaded guns in a plastic box under my bed in my home. WTF?
I'll sniff the fat ladies ass and get an aftermarket locking container to make you smile if that gets me by for storage in my truck.
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2007
- Messages
- 11,135
- Likes
- 1,600
My point. Try reaching into my pocket or console and see what telephone pole or other vehicle I just smeared your sorry ass all over looks like.
If I'm in control of the wheel, stereo, windows, locks, motion both forward and back, ect. How am I not in control of any firearm that is also within the confines of said space?
I don't agree with the stupid OEM storage areas but OK. You say it's alright to store my loaded guns in a plastic box under my bed in my home. WTF?
I'll sniff the fat ladies ass and get an aftermarket locking container to make you smile if that gets me by for storage in my truck.
so, if your just toss the gun not he backseat of your car while you are driving, that is direct control?
I don't keep any personally identifying info in my globe box. Registration and insurance cards in my wallet. But then NC makes both of those wallet card size.
This also ensures that if my car gets stolen and the thief gets pulled over he will get arrested at least for no registration/ insurance
Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk
Asaltweapon
NES Member
Like me tossing 3 packed range bags into the cab of my pickup. Sure. Why not? At least in a range bag the mags are not in the well and no round is in the chamber.
So much simpler here in NC. Only soft top cars/Jeep are required to have a gun kept in a locked container. Hard top car is just a "closed container."
Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk
Exactly correct.
I don't keep any personally identifying info in my globe box. Registration and insurance cards in my wallet. But then NC makes both of those wallet card size.
This also ensures that if my car gets stolen and the thief gets pulled over he will get arrested at least for no registration/ insurance
This can get problematic for any other members of your household when they get stopped without papers.
MA registration is a full 8.5x11 sheet of paper these days, to make life even more difficult. However, my Wife or I may drive either car at any time and thus both of us need access to the registrations without having to ensure we get it from the other person for the day.
NOTHING is simple in MA and they do it that way on purpose.
Every driver in the family has a copy of registration and insurance cards.
And NC actually figured out how to connect RMV and Inspection system computers with that new fangled thing called the Internet so we don't have to put stickahs on the windshield [emoji12]
Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk
MisterHappy
NES Member
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2009
- Messages
- 28,404
- Likes
- 17,587
Then how does John Law know to pull you over for an expired inspection [cue cash register sound]?
Ha!
Simple. Can't renew registration unless the vehicle has been inspected within 90 days of renewal date.
And if you let your insurance laps, it revokes your registration and drivers license after 30 days.
Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk
