What camo?

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Any thoughts on camo in a SHTF situation? Would a camo that best matches your current local terrain be best in a hunting and avoiding the zombies in a SHTF situation or would a generic military type camo have an added benefit?
 

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camo, cover, and concealment. Three different things. All have to used as one. don't get one military type outfit. learn to make your own using nature where there is plenty of it.
 
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While a ghilli suit would be awesome... being able to get into it in a random SHTF where you dont have time to do anything other than grab your oh crap bag may be a bit difficult. in the MA area, I find if you are wearing anything outside of bright orange "Ali G" urban camo you can hide and conceal yourself quite well just knowing how and where to position yourself. I would try to learn the art of hiding yourself by just practicing with friends, play hide and seek wearing your normal every day stuff and start learning what works and what doesn't. That being said, I find khaki and OD stuff works exceptionally well around the NE area, even if it's in snow. once again, learn how to use the environment around you to aid the break up of your body's form and you'll be 100% better off if you indeed need to get out of site.

Oh, and avoid black, nothing in nature is black (well almost). a mid-dark grey or dark blue works best at night.
 
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Camo may suggest some sort of militaryness, which may be better to avoid in times of crisis..

Natural colors in earth tones work best and don't stand out as much in the regular world (pun intended). [smile]
 
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Oh, and avoid black, nothing in nature is black (well almost). a mid-dark grey or dark blue works best at night.
+1 avoid the ninja look
Camo may suggest some sort of militaryness, which may be better to avoid in times of crisis..

Natural colors in earth tones work best and don't stand out as much in the regular world (pun intended). [smile]

I agree in a major civil unrest or moderate SHTF its probally a good Idea to not appear military or LE.
Earth tone work clothes like Carhart & dickies are well built & are availble in some nice hues.
 
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Stolen from Wikipedia....

Camouflage is a method of cryptic or concealing coloration that allows an otherwise visible organism or object to remain indiscernible from the surrounding environment through deception. Examples include a tiger's stripes and the battledress of a modern soldier. The theory of camouflage covers various strategies which are used.

Try not to think of camo as only in woodland/forest type patterns used by hunters and the military.

The area you live and work should help you make a decesion on what your camo will be. Also if you have a contigent for leaving, examine the route/s you plan to take and the areas you'll travel through. You may need to change your dress to fit the area and/or situation you're about to come into.
 
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CABLE GUY!!!!!
cable-guy.jpg


couldn't resist, that was the first thing I thought of when I read that.


Camo may suggest some sort of militaryness, which may be better to avoid in times of crisis..

Natural colors in earth tones work best and don't stand out as much in the regular world (pun intended). [smile]

+1 avoid the ninja look


I agree in a major civil unrest or moderate SHTF its probally a good Idea to not appear military or LE.
Earth tone work clothes like Carhart & dickies are well built & are availble in some nice hues.


I have to agree on both counts whole heartedly, in the woods Camo may hide you but, in town you stick out like a sore thumb.

I work in IT (ie: an office) but I wear Carhartt (ie: work wear) stuff and Red Wing Boots everyday mostly because I like it and I am cheap. More expensive upfront but the stuff lasts forever. It is a hold over from working in auto wrecking years ago, in fact the wife still comments that I look like I am going to work at yard not an office.

It is not unusual for me to be mistaken for a janitor, repair man, gas station attendant, etc. More often than not when I am out and about, particularly at places like the local hardware store, Home Depot, Tractor Supply, or etc some one inevitably asks me something like "Do you have (some Item)" or "Where can I find the (so and so)". Last week I was standing outside the North Station "T" stop where they are finishing up some new yuppie apartment building having a smoke. There I was minding my own business when one of BPD's finest marches up and proceeds to tell me very angrily that I'd "better move that damn Man Lift that is blocking the sidewalk and quick." I just kind of shrugged and said "Ok, It ain't mine, I don't even work here but, if you insist." [grin]

I'll Take Carharrt canvas field jackets and cargo pants in Khaki or O.D. over Camo Rip-Stop BDUs any day. They are more comfortable and hold up better to boot.
 

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given how long our fall is around here, plus the usually dead leaves and pine needles most of the year... German Flecktarn is a good one that can be gotten easily/cheaply.

I came to love it when I couldnt find my rucksack a few weeks ago amongst the pine needles and dead leave... even in the middle of June.

I also have a bunch of clothing in all black as the eye tends to ignore it in a woodland setting.

Flecktarn:

flecktarn_2.jpeg
 
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One more Multicam convert here. Best all around choice in my opinion.

that said, I do agree with the idea of "dressing down" into regular civvies should the need to bug out through an urban area arive. Low profile, normal street clothes (stuffed to the gills with "important" stuff, of course. :)
 
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I like flecktarn also..wish it was just a little lighter in color overall

Personally I think people underestimate ACU. If you get the initial new brightness out with some wear and a few washings it can adapt pretty well with many places (worst may be dark green forest)

If you get some natural stains in from the surroundings (dirt, dust , mud, grass stains) the pattern absorbs it pretty well. Uniform construction itself could be improved, but the pattern is not as bad as people make it out to be.

r290616_1242655.jpg


ACU_works.jpg


US%20forces%20in%20Afghanistan.jpg
 

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I like flecktarn also..wish it was just a little lighter in color overall

Personally I think people underestimate ACU. If you get the initial new brightness out with some wear and a few washings it can adapt pretty well with many places (worst may be dark green forest)

If you get some natural stains in from the surroundings (dirt, dust , mud, grass stains) the pattern absorbs it pretty well. Uniform construction itself could be improved, but the pattern is not as bad as people make it out to be.

ACU was a poor choice for the Army to field. Its good if your fighting in a rock pile, or limited urban night those are the only two places where it MAY adapt to. There is nothing universal about it. In short it was a awful decision that the Army is looking to reverse. The more the uniform is washed, it loses its IR resistance and becomes brighter, not darker, I dont know of any fabric that gets darker with repeated washings. In regards to stains and dirtiness, its a uniform. It is unprofessional for it to be stained or dirty, further stained uniforms are unserviceable. Having tested ACU down at USASS, it doesn't work, its a liability for the soldier and was a rushed design. Rumor has it initially Crye was unable to produce enough MultiCam in order to meet the Army's needs thus ACU won. Having used both, MC and ACU in Iraq, ACU is a horrible platform, period. It pales in comparison to the capabilities of MC, the issued uniforms are of poor quality (the Paraclete uniforms are however very well constructed) It also just doesn't present a neat, professional appearance.
 
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ACU was a poor choice for the Army to field. Its good if your fighting in a rock pile, or limited urban night those are the only two places where it MAY adapt to. There is nothing universal about it. In short it was a awful decision that the Army is looking to reverse. The more the uniform is washed, it loses its IR resistance and becomes brighter, not darker, I dont know of any fabric that gets darker with repeated washings. In regards to stains and dirtiness, its a uniform. It is unprofessional for it to be stained or dirty, further stained uniforms are unserviceable. Having tested ACU down at USASS, it doesn't work, its a liability for the soldier and was a rushed design. Rumor has it initially Crye was unable to produce enough MultiCam in order to meet the Army's needs thus ACU won. Having used both, MC and ACU in Iraq, ACU is a horrible platform, period. It pales in comparison to the capabilities of MC, the issued uniforms are of poor quality (the Paraclete uniforms are however very well constructed) It also just doesn't present a neat, professional appearance.

Please tell me what you think of the ABU.
 

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Please tell me what you think of the ABU.

I think the ABU is a poor offshoot of the ACU. It retains the same colors in a tiger-stripe pattern. Tiger-stripe is useful in heavily vegetated terrain. The colors do not match what the pattern is used for. It has minimal camouflaging properties as it mostly consists of shades of blue. It is less effective than the ACU pattern. In this fight for each service to have their own pattern uniform it wastes service budgets for the development and fielding of the uniforms as well as fielding equipment in a matching pattern. The material of the ABU is of a temperate 50/50 blend twill. It is not available in ripstop thus is an extremely heavy weight/ hot uniform. This was apparently not thought through, given the theaters Airmen are deployed to. Any Airmen that are in combat support roles IE: EOD are issued ACU uniforms, or ACU flight crew uniforms made of Nomex. The cut of the uniform closely resembles the former BDU pattern. Thus the usable parts of the ACU are not on this new uniform. But it is a good garrison uniform as it can be ironed and present a neat, clean appearance. Blue boots. Desert Tan boots are readily available in the DOD system. The AF switching to blue boots really does not achieve any tactical advantages. It is again a costly, wasteful venture.
 
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I think the ABU is a poor offshoot of the ACU. It retains the same colors in a tiger-stripe pattern. Tiger-stripe is useful in heavily vegetated terrain. The colors do not match what the pattern is used for. It has minimal camouflaging properties as it mostly consists of shades of blue. It is less effective than the ACU pattern. In this fight for each service to have their own pattern uniform it wastes service budgets for the development and fielding of the uniforms as well as fielding equipment in a matching pattern. The material of the ABU is of a temperate 50/50 blend twill. It is not available in ripstop thus is an extremely heavy weight/ hot uniform. This was apparently not thought through, given the theaters Airmen are deployed to. Any Airmen that are in combat support roles IE: EOD are issued ACU uniforms, or ACU flight crew uniforms made of Nomex. The cut of the uniform closely resembles the former BDU pattern. Thus the usable parts of the ACU are not on this new uniform. But it is a good garrison uniform as it can be ironed and present a neat, clean appearance. Blue boots. Desert Tan boots are readily available in the DOD system. The AF switching to blue boots really does not achieve any tactical advantages. It is again a costly, wasteful venture.

Thank you! I've been saying that to the new kids in the Guard with me. They're reply is "But is has so many pockets!"
Which you're not allowed to carry anything in, for fear of FOD.

I love the military.
 

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Thank you! I've been saying that to the new kids in the Guard with me. They're reply is "But is has so many pockets!"
Which you're not allowed to carry anything in, for fear of FOD.

I love the military.

The ACU uniform was the death of standards and discipline in the Army. 90% of the Army arnt in any sort of direct combat role. When deployed, on mission. Yeah use your pockets within reason. The Paraclete uniforms like I said are great given thought was put into where the pockets are located. But by getting rid of a great uniform like the BDUs with black boots. There is no professionalism with the ACU. Garrison and mission are two different worlds. Lazy NCOs with no standards, discipline or grasp of Army regs allow these new soldiers get by and turn into an embarrassment. When I pull into a military installation here it drives me nuts the lack of standards some people hold themselves to with their uniform. Professionalism is key in anything you do.
 
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The ACU uniform was the death of standards and discipline in the Army. 90% of the Army arnt in any sort of direct combat role. When deployed, on mission. Yeah use your pockets within reason. The Paraclete uniforms like I said are great given thought was put into where the pockets are located. But by getting rid of a great uniform like the BDUs with black boots. There is no professionalism with the ACU. Garrison and mission are two different worlds. Lazy NCOs with no standards, discipline or grasp of Army regs allow these new soldiers get by and turn into an embarrassment. When I pull into a military installation here it drives me nuts the lack of standards some people hold themselves to with their uniform. Professionalism is key in anything you do.

Seriously. With no uniforms to iron or boots to shine and what the hell do they do in boot camp now?
 

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I hear its a f-ing abortion now. They have mandatory quiet time, less stress, and now instead of doing real PT they do some watered down Cross-Fit shit. My buddy's wife is a DS at FLW, I was thoroughly disgusted hearing some of the things like they are not allowed to yell at soldiers or make corrections. Soldiers can now ship to their units without passing BMQ or APFT. The Army is going to hell in a hand basket.
 
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Multicam seems to be a favorite in this thread. I can't find any pieces for less than $60 though.

I like the MARPAT woodland camo for New England, far superior to the ACU. I usually just wear a durable pair of earth tone Carhart pants with an appropriately camouflaged top. Vietnam era tiger stripe is nice too. Snatch up any pieces of the Desert Storm era "Night Time Desert Camo", its great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Night_Camouflage

Also rare is the USMC experimental "T-Pattern" urban camo.

http://www.kamouflage.net/camouflage/00245.php

As far as all black (ninja style) uniforms/clothing goes, save that for your ops on the water. That's why Zodiac CRRC's are black.
 
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I hear its a f-ing abortion now. They have mandatory quiet time, less stress, and now instead of doing real PT they do some watered down Cross-Fit shit. My buddy's wife is a DS at FLW, I was thoroughly disgusted hearing some of the things like they are not allowed to yell at soldiers or make corrections. Soldiers can now ship to their units without passing BMQ or APFT. The Army is going to hell in a hand basket.

Jeebus. The tales I hear about Air Force boot nowadays are that bad (I was Navy before I went Air Guard), and the fresh guard babies we get outta there have absolutely zero problem complaining about fulfilling an order.

Not a good sign.
 

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Multicam seems to be a favorite in this thread. I can't find any pieces for less than $60 though.

I like the MARPAT woodland camo for New England, far superior to the ACU. I usually just wear a durable pair of earth tone Carhart pants with an appropriately camouflaged top. Vietnam era tiger stripe is nice too. Snatch up any pieces of the Desert Storm era "Night Time Desert Camo", its great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Night_Camouflage

Also rare is the USMC experimental "T-Pattern" urban camo.

http://www.kamouflage.net/camouflage/00245.php

As far as all black (ninja style) uniforms/clothing goes, save that for your ops on the water. That's why Zodiac CRRC's are black.


Anything black or contains black is not a good color/ pattern, its a target indicator. The MC is in use by alot of SOF units, and the Army has been testing it extensively. SKDtac.com has some of the best commercially available MC uniforms. They are where mine were provided from, great quality but you get what you paid for, as with anything else. MARPAT desert is a good pattern. The woodland version is OK, but still pales in comparison to MC.
 
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ACU was a poor choice for the Army to field. Its good if your fighting in a rock pile, or limited urban night those are the only two places where it MAY adapt to. There is nothing universal about it. In short it was a awful decision that the Army is looking to reverse. The more the uniform is washed, it loses its IR resistance and becomes brighter, not darker, I dont know of any fabric that gets darker with repeated washings. In regards to stains and dirtiness, its a uniform. It is unprofessional for it to be stained or dirty, further stained uniforms are unserviceable. Having tested ACU down at USASS, it doesn't work, its a liability for the soldier and was a rushed design. Rumor has it initially Crye was unable to produce enough MultiCam in order to meet the Army's needs thus ACU won. Having used both, MC and ACU in Iraq, ACU is a horrible platform, period. It pales in comparison to the capabilities of MC, the issued uniforms are of poor quality (the Paraclete uniforms are however very well constructed) It also just doesn't present a neat, professional appearance.

2 main points here. The pattern and the uniform design itself.

The uniform itself...needs refinement...overall velcro sucks and the seams in general were weak and areas needed reinforced. But I thought it was an overall comfortable design.

Brightness...I think you and I have a different definition of brightness. By Brightness I mean the brilliance of the colors. Wash them, they fade...same principle with BDU's, the difference between a fresh new uniform and then one that is faded with a little wash and wear. And ANY material will begin to lose its IR resistant properties the more and more it is washed...including multicam...so why you bring this point up I do not know.

Starching also accelerates the loss of IR resistant properties in in material. I wonder how many BDU's were basically ruined in the effort to look neat and professional in garrison. Stains...absorbing color from the terrain around you...there is a reason why many people still think plain old OD greens are good and they work.

Rumor....I love rumor...but I doubt if Crye could not have upped manufacturing capacity to meet demand, then they would have never made it to the top 4. Maybe the reason why Multicam was not adopted because in the testing it finished 3rd overall out of the final 4?
Natick's conclusion after testing:
"Overall, the best relative performer was the Desert All Over Brush design, followed by Woodland Track Mod, Scorpion Mod, and Urban Track
(in ranking order).
(Scorpion Mod being Multicam)

ACU pattern as issued was not even part of testing...there was no digital pattern tested. Personally I think they found what they thought the best color combination for a "universal" (woodland, desert urban) camouflage and then adapted it to digital pixel pattern based on MARPat.

Here is a powerpoint on the testing from Natick... http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004issc/wednesday/dugas.ppt

A brush pattern (maybe similar to a light color Rhodesian/Transvaal DPM? which I like very much also) was most effective. Again these are controlled tests...which some like and some don't. But Multicam did not. So now maybe the Army will adopt the 3rd place winner. Makes sense.

In a few posts I see you mention many times a point about looks and looking professional. While it has it merits, I never fully agree with the whole "spit and polish makes you/is indicative of a better soldier" concept. Some of the most professional and effective fighting forces in history had lax uniform standards which would probably make you rant.
rhodesianselousscoutsg3be1.jpg


Even the Brits and Aussies (at least in theater) dont seem so concerned on uniform standards and I would hesitate to question or doubt their professionalism. On the flip side of the coin, I have an Iraqi friend who is here in the US...her brother (in the per-2003 Iraqi military) was put in Jail for 4 days for not having his headgear on properly.

While I never said that ACU pattern was the be all end all, I think it is more effective than most people seem to believe and not as bad as its detractors make it out to be. Definitely more effective in more than the 2 environments you list.

Conversely I have not drunk the Multicam Koolaid.

patrol0lf.jpg
 
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Any thoughts on camo in a SHTF situation? Would a camo that best matches your current local terrain be best in a hunting and avoiding the zombies in a SHTF situation or would a generic military type camo have an added benefit?


Standard Clothing in dark colors. Perhaps some very low key dual use stuff (Not cammo)

Why?

Well, if SHTF and it's every man for himself, I don't want to be very conspicuous if full tac gear. Sure, if you're deep in the woods, wear somthing green or even camo. But camo in a city stands out like a sore thumb, even when it's color correct. You just look like a tactical dude...you know, the kinda guy who has some pretty cool stuff on him...the kinda guy you might just take out with a head shot from 100 yards in case he actually knows how to use some of his toys.

Nope, I'd go for current looking outdoor gear from the commercial sector. It is, by and large, better than the mil-spec stuff for all but combat application.
 
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is that an airsoft team in the last pic?

Dunno, but my point is Multicam is not a be all camo. Now I hear that the US Army is going to maybe issue it to 173rd AB going to Afghanistan...info off the net so who knows. But just as people say Multicam beat ACU in trials (which I guess factually it did as ACU as issued wasn't included in the group ) it still wasnt most effective overall for all environments...it came in 3rd.

Personally, I think seeking a "universal" camo based upon todays technology is near impossible. While I would not probably choose ACU pattern in dark green woodland...I would consider it in many other environments.

I think this AusPat (Aussie digital) has potential
tac-dax-digiauscam-front.jpg
 

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2 main points here. The pattern and the uniform design itself.

The uniform itself...needs refinement...overall velcro sucks and the seams in general were weak and areas needed reinforced. But I thought it was an overall comfortable design.

Brightness...I think you and I have a different definition of brightness. By Brightness I mean the brilliance of the colors. Wash them, they fade...same principle with BDU's, the difference between a fresh new uniform and then one that is faded with a little wash and wear. And ANY material will begin to lose its IR resistant properties the more and more it is washed...including multicam...so why you bring this point up I do not know.

Starching also accelerates the loss of IR resistant properties in in material. I wonder how many BDU's were basically ruined in the effort to look neat and professional in garrison. Stains...absorbing color from the terrain around you...there is a reason why many people still think plain old OD greens are good and they work.

Rumor....I love rumor...but I doubt if Crye could not have upped manufacturing capacity to meet demand, then they would have never made it to the top 4. Maybe the reason why Multicam was not adopted because in the testing it finished 3rd overall out of the final 4?
Natick's conclusion after testing:
"Overall, the best relative performer was the Desert All Over Brush design, followed by Woodland Track Mod, Scorpion Mod, and Urban Track
(in ranking order).
(Scorpion Mod being Multicam)

ACU pattern as issued was not even part of testing...there was no digital pattern tested. Personally I think they found what they thought the best color combination for a "universal" (woodland, desert urban) camouflage and then adapted it to digital pixel pattern based on MARPat.

Here is a powerpoint on the testing from Natick... http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004issc/wednesday/dugas.ppt

A brush pattern (maybe similar to a light color Rhodesian/Transvaal DPM? which I like very much also) was most effective. Again these are controlled tests...which some like and some don't. But Multicam did not. So now maybe the Army will adopt the 3rd place winner. Makes sense.

In a few posts I see you mention many times a point about looks and looking professional. While it has it merits, I never fully agree with the whole "spit and polish makes you/is indicative of a better soldier" concept. Some of the most professional fighting forces in history had lax uniform standards which would probably make you rant.
rhodesianselousscoutsg3be1.jpg


Even the Brits and Aussies (at least in theater) dont seem so concerned on uniform standards and I would hesitate to question or doubt their professionalism. On the flip side of the coin, I have an Iraqi friend who is here in the US...her brother (in the per-2003 Iraqi military) was put in Jail for 4 days for not having his headgear on properly.

While I never said that ACU pattern was the be all end all, I think it is more effective than most people seem to believe and not as bad as its detractors make it out to be. Definitely more effective in more than the 2 environments you list.

Conversely I have not drunk the Multicam Koolaid.

I dont know what your background is. I have personally used multiple different uniforms in combat, Iraq. MC being the best overall pattern we used and became standardized. There is a reason it is in use by our most elite soldiers, it works. My loyalties to MC are due to its battlefield performance. I generally base my opinions off of life experience. So I can say by my first hand experience at the sniper school, in tests CONUS and in combat ACU is a horrible pattern and a poorly constructed uniform and that MultiCam works, and works well.

Have you worn the ACU uniform for any length of times through multiple washings? I have. It turns BRIGHT baby blue. That is why I make this point.

Have you spent anytime in theater? I have worked with Brits, they take a great deal of pride in their appearance. Have you employed ACU or MC on an ambush? ACY WILL get you compromised.

If you have served in the Army and have been a NCO there is no reason why to argue the need to look professional, standards and discipline. I guess its one of those things you cant pull a power point off the internet or read about, just got to do.

I appreciate your devotion to the many patterns around the world, your devotion is obviously greater than mine. I do this for a living. In multiple places I have tested the different patterns under various conditions. You can argue why ACU is wonderful, why MC is a poor pattern or why you dont believe in a neat professional appearance. The fact remains reading about it and doing it are two different things. Taking some pictures off the internet isnt a real test of a product's abilities. So if you've tested it real world, I would find that interesting. Or your great experience being in the present day Army. Ive been a sniper for a number of years, I have operated in many different types of terrain and that is my professional assessment of ACUs capabilities, an assessment that is shared by numerous other people within my community. We dont play AirSoft, we play on the live fire ranges of the world.
 
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