What camo?

Standard Clothing in dark colors. Perhaps some very low key dual use stuff (Not cammo)

Why?

Well, if SHTF and it's every man for himself, I don't want to be very conspicuous if full tac gear. Sure, if you're deep in the woods, wear somthing green or even camo. But camo in a city stands out like a sore thumb, even when it's color correct. You just look like a tactical dude...you know, the kinda guy who has some pretty cool stuff on him...the kinda guy you might just take out with a head shot from 100 yards in case he actually knows how to use some of his toys.

Nope, I'd go for current looking outdoor gear from the commercial sector. It is, by and large, better than the mil-spec stuff for all but combat application.

Very well said.
 
I dont know what your background is. I have personally used multiple different uniforms in combat, Iraq. MC being the best overall pattern we used and became standardized. There is a reason it is in use by our most elite soldiers, it works. My loyalties to MC are due to its battlefield performance. I generally base my opinions off of life experience. So I can say by my first hand experience at the sniper school, in tests CONUS and in combat ACU is a horrible pattern and a poorly constructed uniform and that MultiCam works, and works well.

Have you worn the ACU uniform for any length of times through multiple washings? I have. It turns BRIGHT baby blue. That is why I make this point.

Have you spent anytime in theater? I have worked with Brits, they take a great deal of pride in their appearance. Have you employed ACU or MC on an ambush? ACY WILL get you compromised.

If you have served in the Army and have been a NCO there is no reason why to argue the need to look professional, standards and discipline. I guess its one of those things you cant pull a power point off the internet or read about, just got to do.

Edit: When you say ACU will get you compromised on an ambush...Did you really put that in your AAR? That your uniform pattern got you compromised?

I appreciate your devotion to the many patterns around the world, your devotion is obviously greater than mine. I do this for a living. In multiple places I have tested the different patterns under various conditions. You can argue why ACU is wonderful, why MC is a poor pattern or why you dont believe in a neat professional appearance. The fact remains reading about it and doing it are two different things. Taking some pictures off the internet isnt a real test of a product's abilities. So if you've tested it real world, I would find that interesting. Or your great experience being in the present day Army. Ive been a sniper for a number of years, I have operated in many different types of terrain and that is my professional assessment of ACUs capabilities, an assessment that is shared by numerous other people within my community. We dont play AirSoft, we play on the live fire ranges of the world.

12B00 (cross reference Officer Mos's) and 19D 14 months in Iraq.

Personally though, from the straight out of the block condescension in your post (which amounted to half of it) you are not interested in hearing about other people's experiences or opinions...you know what you know and that's fine, but you can keep your attitude.


Edit: You state that the ACU will get your ambush compromised. Is this what you wrote in your AAR as the reason it was?
 
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12B00 (cross reference Officer Mos's) and 19D 14 months in Iraq.

Personally though, from the straight out of the block condescension in your post (which amounted to half of it) you are not interested in hearing about other people's experiences or opinions...you know what you know and that's fine, but you can keep your attitude.

Oh I am interested in hearing actual real life testing. Or lessons learned. Not book commando reasoning. Or how the lack of standards and discipline have made for a better Army. They haven't. If you want to start another thread in regards to the direct relation of standards and discipline to an effective fighting force that is fine. In the future if your post has a condescending undertone, someone will probably meet you with one. In regards to being compromised. I have never been compromised, that being said I have had great luck. But an inability to blend in with your surroundings will equate to that. Sit in a corn field in ACUs and see how well you blend, you wont. Or go on a stalk lane with ACUs, they wont work either. There are many great camouflage patters out there. While not one can be "universal" the only thing that is "universal" about the ACU pattern that it does not fit any role well. Whether it be a mudhut village, urban night, a corn field or arid terrain MC allows for better concealment in comparison to ACU. If ACU worked well, it would be the choice pattern of SOF units and Snipers across the board. Its a poor choice of uniform, Im sorry that Im not a fan of it. Its garbage.
 
What about CADPAT (the green one not the desert one) - in New England during late spring, summer - and into early fall it would seem to be a decent camo for the woods. Probably not as good a MultiCam for all environments though.

CADPAT3man1024x768.jpg
 
CADPAT seems really effective in the woods. The black rifles REALLY stick out like a sore thumb. Krylon to the rescue.
 
Good Mornin' All, I'm not a tester, and I dont know anything much about MultiCam, but I am a soldier who has deployed twice. I know the original part of this thread was what style camo, and I will touch on that too, but first: Both times i deployed ('03-'04 then again in '05-'06) we were issued DCUs. Those were the absolute best uniforms for Afghan one could get, at least where we were. The team guys were issued ACUs as part of the fielding process and the team guys i talked too hated them. We did a test on the ACU vs DCUs ourselves, using naked eyes, Binos, and eventually cameras, we would watch the team roll out, some with ACUs, some with DCUs and see which disappeared and blended in better. Sparing you the long drawn out details, the ACUs still stuck out long after the DCUs had blended in and became almost invisible, one had to look and know what to look for.

Velcro, At first i loved the idea, that my pocket would almost seal keeping its contents in place. But I wear this uniform everyday, the velcro wears out rapidly, pockets dont stay closed, and the velcro along the gig line doesnt hitch properly either.

Desert boots are comfortable, moreso than even my most treasured pair of Polished Cadillacs, they seem lighter and better fitting.

I work in the Mass Guard HQ a garrison enviroment, but I am a 13 series NCO. I dont quite subscribe that this ACUs uniform and non-shinable boots makes us look less professional. I dont like the ACUs, but I think the concept has good intentions, (my love for my DCUs at home will be first and foremost). If we are to look more professional give the berets back to the Rangers, the SF, and the Airborne, they earned the right to wear it, the earned the right to keep it, and every person that wears it wrong tarnishes their accomplishments. Patrol Cap stateside, Boonie Overseas.

The older style BDUs weren't too bad and dime-a-dozen for the NE area, and I have used my DCUs in fall, they are a little light, but on the ground they dont seem too bad. I agree with the Civilian plain clothes made for outdoor work will be a better bet for urban, and the Camo, anything BUT ACU in the woods.
 
Anything black or contains black is not a good color/ pattern, its a target indicator. The MC is in use by alot of SOF units, and the Army has been testing it extensively. SKDtac.com has some of the best commercially available MC uniforms. They are where mine were provided from, great quality but you get what you paid for, as with anything else. MARPAT desert is a good pattern. The woodland version is OK, but still pales in comparison to MC.


Black is for water ops. There is no substitute.
 
Velcro, At first i loved the idea, that my pocket would almost seal keeping its contents in place. But I wear this uniform everyday, the velcro wears out rapidly, pockets dont stay closed, and the velcro along the gig line doesnt hitch properly either.

isnt that the truth!
i wore a drop leg holster on my right thigh to hold my M9. the holster covered the right leg pocket, so i never used it. my left leg pocket, which i used often had its velcro totaly worn away by the end of the deployment. the right side? still brand new [rofl]
 
Honestly I have never used the drawstring, at this point, I keep everything in my Pack, i only use the Cargo pockets to temporarily hold anything, or worthless paper. Im still thankful I didnt deploy with ACU, in fact my next tour Im bringing my set of DCUs, just in case I get the change to wear them again!
 
My $0.02 cents.

What camo you choose depends on your surroundings. I think a ghillie suit works best, but I live in an urban area so that's out of the question. That being said, if I can only choose one color, I'd choose gray, but it's hard to come across that color so let's just go with black. I don't care about all the hate towards black, mall ninja, tacticool, this or that. Next thing you know, if you're wearing tan, you'll be labeled a sand ninja. Nevermind the judgmental riff raff. Black has been used extensively because it works.

Black blends in urban and forest settings. Black is found in nature. For example, in the woods, if the sun isn't directly above you, the trees will have a dark shade. The Army decided that black wasn't important and ended up with the ACU. MARPAT still contains black and I think that's more effective. Black is most effective in urban settings and it's a versatile color. The only areas where it can't fit in is in the desert (have to have tan) or snow (white). Here is a breakdown of the colors and settings:

Black = Urban, Woodland
Green = Woodland, Desert
Tan = Desert

Ultimately, if someone is hunting/tracking you, you will be spotted sooner or later.
 
I maybe mistaken, but black does not exist in nature, that is why you use camo patterns to break up your silhouette. Tan based camo's are becoming the most effective all around because they blend better in all environments. Also why people paint their rifles, a large black rifle sticks out like a soar thumb in the woods.

Hence Multi-cam;
multicam-vs-woodland.jpg
 
I don't think you can find anything that's purely black in nature but you definitely can come close to it. In the Woodland vs MultiCam photo, notice how dark the tree trunks are, including the Woodland camo. There's really no universal camo so you just got to stick with what you think works best in your situation.

bild14.jpg
 
dark earth/coyote brown cargo's, brown hiking boots and a brown or od t-shirt w/ a dark brown thermal over it (in cold weather) is what I wear most of the time as my non-work clothes. I figure this passes for non-descript in a social environment but would make a good base for SHTF wether it be urban or woodland. of course while I'm at work I have to wear a purple shirt so hopefully if the SHTF while i'm at work, it's a barney attack.
 
I don't think you can find anything that's purely black in nature but you definitely can come close to it. In the Woodland vs MultiCam photo, notice how dark the tree trunks are, including the Woodland camo. There's really no universal camo so you just got to stick with what you think works best in your situation.

bild14.jpg

Nothing in nature is truly black. To a trained eye, black objects stick out like the girl in the red dress in the Maxtrix. Even against a dark grey or at night, true black often looks "too dark" and your outline becomes visible.

In the shadow or darkness, any color you wear is going to look dark because there's no light on it. "Nature" usually looks like a light back-ground with scattered shadows. That is why many camaflague patteres have light base colors with darker patches or patterns designed to make the local break-up.

As pointed out, gallie is your best option as it breaks up color and shape with natural materials, but it needs to be customized for every enviornment, even mid mission if the enviornment is changing. If you're concerned about camoflauge, pick up a large piece of base cloth and stich a bunch of straps to it to make a base gallie blanket and practice working it into to a full suit. A simple sheet will cover your camp/equipment and you when you don't have to move much.

For base clothes, I would recommend civilian looking clothes in green, tan or brown that you can "dirty" rapidly if needed. Throw a couple of handfuls of mud on a green shirt and kaki pants rub some leaves into it and you're making a good base suit. Grab a few strips of strong mesh and tie it around arms, legs, etc and work in some local foliage and you'll have a fairly good suit.

Wrap your rifle in the same mesh to break up it's straight lines as well. Again, work in some local folliage and update it as the folliage changes. Again, nothing in nature is perfectly round, prefectly striaght or prefectly black. Break those kinds of things up when possible.
 
I maybe mistaken, but black does not exist in nature, that is why you use camo patterns to break up your silhouette. Tan based camo's are becoming the most effective all around because they blend better in all environments. Also why people paint their rifles, a large black rifle sticks out like a soar thumb in the woods.

Hence Multi-cam;
multicam-vs-woodland.jpg

In this photo the multicam blends in better where the people are positioned but it appears that the woodland would blend in better then the multicam if against a tree.
 
Any thoughts on camo in a SHTF situation? Would a camo that best matches your current local terrain be best in a hunting and avoiding the zombies in a SHTF situation or would a generic military type camo have an added benefit?
Camo won't help, the zombies can smell your flesh.
Zombies require AMMO not CAMO...
 
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In this photo the multicam blends in better where the people are positioned but it appears that the woodland would blend in better then the multicam if against a tree.

True to form, using photo-shop to place the "woodland" camo guy in several alternate locations on this image, he blends in much better in front of the tree trunk, or when backed by the green pines. Against the dry grass, he hands out like a sore thumb.

The multicam suit stands out when backed by these darker backgrounds, much more so than the woodland.

As with anything, knowing your enviornment is critical. In a pine forest (what woodland camo was designed for) it's going to be very effective. If the ground cover was spring fern, the multicam would be near useless. All of this is why gallie uses natural flora to augment its camoflague and also teaches to stay below the level of local cover.

What if zombies are color blind? Or if they see into the ultra-violet or infra-red spectrum? Without one to study, we really can't be certain what the most effective form of camoflague is going to be. How does your camo look under low-light? What about under IR illumination?
 
Nothing dissapears you better in the woods than Mossy oak "Break up" Wood, rock etc it blends in. Plus you wont look so military...

mossy%20oak%20new%20break%20up%20nylon%20velvet.gif
 
Ok, my two cents,

FIRST.. there are ALOT of you with great ideas and valid points. Having been a 21E equipment operator who never had to do any high speed shit like you guys, I have nothing to say other than what the posters have already on the cover, concealment, and camouflage. There is no one right answer. It depends on your environment. Think like every other joe and look like every other joe if you can. If you dont want to be seen.... think like a shadow. LOL...

SECOND.... ACUs were poorly designed. Velcro does not belong on a uniform at all. PERIOD. I MIGHT be wlling to conceed on the sleeves where combat patches are worn IF the damn velcro patch werent so huge and stand out horribly on most uniforms. The zipper front is great I think. Velcro tabs on the front are the least worriesome. Nametapes, rank and the like, need to be sewn on. THE VELCRO ON THE POCKETS WAS ASSININE. Should just have put zippers or buttons. Even a zipper is quieter. The RIPSTOP ... that a bunch of BS. I swear it rips just as bad if not worse than cotton. about the only good thing is its usually in two straight lines.

I do sympathize with P2A on the uniforms wear and appearance. I started out in the USMC in the 90s, got my uniform codes from them. Came to the Army Guard in 03 and we were still in BDUs. I think that a clean crisply ironed and Irish Pendanted uniform shows a level of pride and professionalism. Now... dont get me wrong.. I love the pajama feel of these crappy uniforms, but I do think they are let go way to easily. I also think the velcro ( do you get I hate the velcro) picks up alot of crap, gets pilly and useless in 6 months of regular wear or less, and the fade of the ACU and its ease of picking up stains just makes it blah.... but salty LOL.

Boots, the smartest thing the services ever did was get rid of black leather. My suede boots, while they too pick up grease and grime and take away from the cleanliness... are VERY FUNCTIONAL in most circumstances.

I also agree with the poster who said get rid of that Cheezy beret in Garrison. While Im proud to wear it, I feel like I stole it from someone high speed and tactical. Redesign the PC to look a little more cool and crisp looking and we would be good to go,...

Beeee the guy no one ever sees in SHTF... whatever you gotta do LOL.... Thank you all for some really great insights on the hows and whys and why nots of all the different schemes!
 
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