What are the rules when you get stopped in a car?

[lagrangian]

What are the rules (both the real legal ones and the "practical" ones) if someone with an LTC gets pulled over (for speeding or whatever) in terms of what you say to the officer and whether or not you hand over your LTC along with your license and registration?

It would seem to me there are basically three situations:
(1) No guns in car at all (so do you hand over LTC?)
(2) Guns in car but not on person (do you hand over LTC? Do you tell the officer there are guns in the car?)
(3) Gun or guns on the person (I assume that you should tell the officer you are carrying and hand over the LTC.)

Similarly, I'd imagine that anytime you are carrying and get in a situation where an officer is going to search you or pat you down, it would be wise to tell him that you're carrying before he starts the search/patdown?

 

[dwarven1]

(1) No guns in car at all (so do you hand over LTC?)

Why does he need to know? Leave it in your wallet and don't say anything.

(2) Guns in car but not on person (do you hand over LTC? Do you tell the officer there are guns in the car?)

I probably wouldn't unless he asked to search the car. In which case you say, "I have an LTC." Do NOT say, "I have a gun". Unless you really like getting cuffed.

(3) Gun or guns on the person (I assume that you should tell the officer you are carrying and hand over the LTC.)

AFAIK, there is no law in MA that says you have to notify the officer you're armed. (there are other states that require you do so, however... know the laws where you're traveling (assuming you have a valid permit for that state!)). Again, if the officer wants to search you, then I'd tell him you have an LTC.

Similarly, I'd imagine that anytime you are carrying and get in a situation where an officer is going to search you or pat you down, it would be wise to tell him that you're carrying before he starts the search/patdown?

See answer # 2.

I'm sure that some of our LEO's will jump in here to correct anything I've screwed up. (IANAL, nor do I play one on the internet. But we do have a few lurking around.)

 

[FPrice]

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV or the internet. But I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express once.

(1) No guns in car at all (so do you hand over LTC?)

No reason to since there are no guns present. Don't even bring up the subject, but answer any questions truthfully.

(2) Guns in car but not on person (do you hand over LTC? Do you tell the officer there are guns in the car?)

No. Just keep your hands in view at all time, be polite, and answer questions truthfully.

Q: Do you have any guns in the car?
A: Yes sir, I have one/several handgun(s), rifle(s), shotgun(s), they are all in locked containers. Hopefully the last statement is true where applicable. Some rifles do not need to be locked up.

(3) Gun or guns on the person (I assume that you should tell the officer you are carrying and hand over the LTC.)

AFAIK, there is no Mass General Law which requires you to initiate an exchange which informs an LEO that you have a gun on you. But I do believe that you are required to give this information if so asked by an LEO operating in an official capacity. Now, as long as you stay in the car, keep your hands in plain view, and act like you are cooperating, the issue may never come up and you will probably be on your way without anything being said. However, if you are asked to get out of the car without the officer asking you if you have any weapons on you I would say something like the following (again keeping your hands in plain view):

"Yes sir, however I would like to let you know that I have a Massachusetts License to Carry Firearms and I do have a gun on me. What would you like me to do officer?"

Be polite, do what the officer tells you to do, cooperate, and there should be no problems.

 

[Lynne]

FWIW...

We tell our students that if they are stopped, they do not need to tell the officer that they are carrying. The officer, from my understanding, has to have some reason to ask to search your car, #1. #2 - IF you are asked to step out of the car, we tell the students to keep their hands on the wheel and tell the officer, politely ofcourse, "Yes sir, I'll be more than happy to do that, however, I have a LTC and I am. It's <whereever your carrying it>." After doing that, do not reach for anything until you inform the officer that you're either getting your drivers license or the reg for the car.

I've heard from a few officers that when people do that they appreciate it.

 

[MidKnight]

Best advice I've heard is, if they didn't ask, they don't want to know. So, if you have to get out of the car or if they ask tell them. But as stated above, you must do it correctly.

Start with the "I am registered and licensed by the state to carry a firearm, which I am doing at this time." Not "I have a gun and a license for it". Their hearing will stop at "I have a gun". Mine would too, as a cop.

 

[dwarven1]

Of course, the best way to not worry about this is to avoid getting pulled over in the first place.

 

[Lynne]

Of course, the best way to not worry about this is to avoid getting pulled over in the first place.

Well, yes, there is that.

 

[dwarven1]

Of course, the best way to not worry about this is to avoid getting pulled over in the first place.

Well, yes, there is that.

Did you follow the link? Awesome book... highly recommended.

 

[C-pher]

A Speeder's Guide to Avoiding Tickets


I would think that No. 1 would be, Don't Speed.

 

[dwarven1]

Well, there is that. Tried going 65 on I495 lately? [lol]

 

[Lynne]

Since I usually follow the rules of the road, I'd rather spend the $$'s on something for Sgt. Joe. But thanks Ross.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Preface from someone who worked 18 years as a Special PO. Yes we stopped cars and I worked shifts, etc. [NO way that I claim the same LE knowledge as most of my FT PO friends, including Jon . . . but we did learn some things in the Academy and the years of working patrol with our FT POs.]

Most MA LEOs are NOT gun people, it is politically incorrect to be one (sorry Jon ) and almost NONE are conversant in MGLs regarding licensing and legal gun ownership. MANY a person has had their perfectly legal gun confiscated because some patrol officer "thought it was illegal" for a civilian to possess! [And do not assume you'll get it back, even if a court orders the PD to return it! There are numerous cases where PDs have absolutely refused to return guns/LTCs when ordered by the courts - Atty Karen MacNutt could provide some detailed cases she's worked in this regard.]

MA is NOT GA, FL or other states where a car is routinely searched on a "tail light out" stop! For a MA LEO to search your car, there has to be demonstrable evidence (to his superiors and a judge) that something illegal was going on here! If the LEO has justifiable reason, he doesn't need your permission . . . if it is a "fishing expedition" he may ask and the smartest answer is to be very polite and REFUSE unless they get a search warrant (a favorite in other states is "then you'll just have to wait here a long time til we get one" . . . it is just an intimidation factor to get you to say "yes"). If challenged that way, play "bluff poker" and just say "fine, I'll wait" . . . they can't detain you very long (court case on this) otherwise it is considered an arrest . . . which can lead to the officer/PD losing a lawsuit for false arrest if he doesn't have a damn good reason for doing so. ALWAYS be polite, but don't give up your rights!

No matter where, do NOT ever get out of your car in a stop unless ordered to do so by the Officer! If you don't listen to this advice, be prepared to end up proned out on the ground, eating asphalt/dirt! And then if you are carrying there is a 99.999% chance that you will be cuffed and stuffed, the gun taken as evidence, and likely some charges will be at least contemplated!

Always keep your hands where they can be seen, preferably on top of the steering wheel and put your dome lights on. This will make the LEO more able to see you and that you are being cooperative. Being nice always pays off . . . as you could get just a verbal or written warning, where being arrogant will almost always end up in the biggest ticket he can write! This is regardless of whether armed or not.

MGLs do NOT require notification to LE that you are armed at any time. Thus, the wisdom (from talking about this with many LEOs) is that if there is NO chance that the LEO is going to see any guns AND you aren't asked to exit the car, keep the LTC and info to yourself!

If asked directly if you have anything illegal, I would respond with something like: "I have nothing illegal."

If asked directly if you have any weapons on you or in the car, my answer would depend on the exact condition . . . something like the following:

- If armed: I would then state that "I have a LTC and am carrying on <location>, what would you like me to do?"

- If unarmed and no guns in the vehicle: "No, I have no weapons in the vehicle or on my person." NO mention of LTC!

- If guns are locked in trunk: "No, I have no weapons on my person or within reach." What's in the trunk is none of his business.

I have been stopped twice while armed (speeding) and in neither case was I asked about guns, nor did I offer any info. First case was on Rte. 3 Boston (early-mid 1980s) by a very angry/arrogant motorcycle cop (BPD) who was driving a cruiser. I was dressed in a jacket/tie and carrying. I yes/no sirred him to death and was given a verbal warning (my speedo was non-functional and replacements were not readily available for my diesel Rabbit unless I wanted to pay ~1/3 the value of the car to buy/install one . . . I had actually tried to replace it). From his demeanor, I am convinced that I would have been proned out on the highway if I had mentioned that I had a LTC or gun on me!

Second time (~1992-3) was on Rte. 16 Newton by a speed trap (~40 in a 25, which was about average speed in that area normally . . . 4 lane road leading to Mass Tnpk and one of the Newton villages). As soon as I passed him he hit his lights and I pulled to the side and backed up towards him. Very polite, handed DL and Reg to him, he checked it out and handed them back to me, told me to watch my speed and then bade me a "good evening Len" (NOT my formal name on my DL). I never got a clear look at his face or nameplate but that made me think that he was a fellow member of the Police Square Club (we had a large Newton contingent back then). No mention of LTC or guns needed or done.

 

[JonJ]

Looks like ya all covered this one real well!

 

[Republic of Mass]

The one Time I was stoped while CC'ing, I had it in my breifcase on my passanger seat.

When the trooper asked for my DL and reg, I stated "My driver's license and firearms license is in my pocket, I do have a loaded firearm in my briefcase"
He said "OK"
I handed both over. He questioned me a little more (about my idiotic driving move I just pulled) then asked if I was a PO. I stated no, not a sworn officer, I do work as a civie for XXX" He asked why I had a gun, I said "just in case". He asked nothing else about the firearm.
He did ask me to stand ouside the vehicle while he ran my information. We were in a parking lot, nice sunny day, no where near traffic, I did so w/out question. Gave me a chance to look at my right side wheels which had just slamed over a few curbs.
He came back, with a written warning. He asked what I had, I told him 229, and we talked for about 5 minutes about sigs before he said have a nice day.

 

[Moderator]

I got popped last wed. in RI while carrying, doing 85 in a 40. RT.99 Speed go's from 55 to 40. The whole road is only about 3 or 4 miles long. I pulled over right away. Hands on the wheel, hazards, e-brake, engine off. The female (very nice looking also, bow chika bow bow) officer asked for License, Reg and proof of insurance. I grabbed my Lic out of my back pocket, reg from the glove box and explained the MA does not issue insurance cards. She said she was aware of that. I kept calling her mam. She said "do you know why I pulled you over", I said "Yes mam I do". She went back to her cruiser (mean while I am shitting my self) came back a few min later. She said "I am letting you go this time, but only because you have a good attitude." I said "thank you, I know I should not of been going that fast" Then she told me she loved mustangs and we talked for a few minutes. I told her that I appreciate what she does every day, and so on. She explained that if I get pulled over by that town again…I am pretty much screwed. I left, said a thank you prayer and called my friends to brag about it (sorry cptn5spd forgot to tell ya, but you cousin knows). I know learned my lesson, and it didn’t cost me $500

Moral of the story, I didn’t say anything she didn’t need to know. But I would have explained in a mild manner in advance had she asked me to step out of the car.

 

[Republic of Mass]

Do you have a RI non-resident, were you playing the "Im not "allowing myself to be detained" so RI law exempts me because I have a Mass LTC, or were ya just taking the chance?

 

[Adam_MA]

I got popped last wed. in RI while carrying, doing 85 in a 40. RT.99 Speed go's from 55 to 40. The whole road is only about 3 or 4 miles long. I pulled over right away. Hands on the wheel, hazards, e-brake, engine off. The female (very nice looking also, bow chika bow bow) officer asked for License, Reg and proof of insurance. I grabbed my Lic out of my back pocket, reg from the glove box and explained the MA does not issue insurance cards. She said she was aware of that. I kept calling her mam. She said "do you know why I pulled you over", I said "Yes mam I do". She went back to her cruiser (mean while I am shitting my self) came back a few min later. She said "I am letting you go this time, but only because you have a good attitude." I said "thank you, I know I should not of been going that fast" Then she told me she loved mustangs and we talked for a few minutes. I told her that I appreciate what she does every day, and so on. She explained that if I get pulled over by that town again…I am pretty much screwed. I left, said a thank you prayer and called my friends to brag about it (sorry cptn5spd forgot to tell ya, but you cousin knows). I know learned my lesson, and it didn’t cost me $500

Moral of the story, I didn’t say anything she didn’t need to know. But I would have explained in a mild manner in advance had she asked me to step out of the car.

"Dear Penthouse....."

 

[dwarven1]

Some years ago I got pulled over on the Pike. I'd been stuck in the middle lane behind someone, no one would let me get into the left lane, so I dove into the slow lane, zipped around this slowpoke... and look up and saw flashing red lights in my rear-view.

To this day I have no idea where he came from. It's like he dropped out of the sky.

The trooper comes up to my window and asks me, "Do you know why I pulled you over?" I said, "Yup! Because I did something stupid RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU!"

After he stopped laughing, he let me go with a warning.

Honesty works in a lot of cases. Sometimes what you did was so egregious, or the cop's had such a bad day that you're gonna get a driving award anyway, but honesty seems to work best.

'Course, as we get older, doing 80 in a 45 zone seems like less and less of a good idea. (I'm not preaching here; I've done it... but not lately. Just don't see the need for it. Wonder if I'd feel that way if I still had my RX-2?)

Ross

 

[Garys]

The advice about what to do during a traffic stop is in line with my experience and what I have read.

The most important things are to not raise any red flags OR annoy the officer.

I've used all of the turn the dome light on, hands on the steering wheel, engine off, ... advice and will add only that I put my hazards on. I have no idea if this does anything, but it certainly doesn't hurt.

One other bit of advice, in the don't annoy the officer category. If the cruiser comes up behind you and turns on the lights, don't hit the brakes. He's already nailed you, if you were speeding. Hitting the breaks increases the risk of the officer hitting you. Fault aside, that means more paperwork, and cops HATE paperwork. What I do is acknowledge that he's behind me, which is where the hazards come in. Wait until it's safe to do so and pull over the right. I try to find a space where it's safe to pull way off the road, so the risk to both of us is minimized.

Fortunately, I don't get stopped often, but the few times that I have, following these rules, along with being polite and not spewing forth a line of BS, has meant I haven't had a moving violation since 1973.

Which only means that I've just jinxed myself. <G>

Gary

 

[Lynne]

Which only means that I've just jinxed myself. <G>

[lol] [lol] We'll be waiting for the update. [lol]

 

[Adam_MA]

Got that beat...

I got bagged doing 148 in a 35.

After all was said and done, I was out of the car, face down on the pavement spread eagle with a cop over me. I was about to faint from fear when I heard him start to laugh and said. "Adam you shithead get up"

You can imagine my relief when it turned out to be a cop that I knew, and a week earlier I raced his cruiser and won $50 off him because he thought his cruiser was faster than my car.
[twisted] [twisted]

Adam

 

[Lynne]

I got bagged doing 148 in a 35.

Adam....tell me you hit the wrong keys on that number.... [shock]

 

[Adam_MA]

I got bagged doing 148 in a 35.

Adam....tell me you hit the wrong keys on that number.... [shock]

Nope that's right.

 

[Lynne]

[shock] [shock]

 

[Adam_MA]

Yeah... That's what happens when you put a "gearhead" in a garage with a full engine/machine shop for 2 years!

 

[Scrivener]

The 148 doesn't really bother me; it's the 35 zone.

148 on Route 295 in clear, dry weather early on a Sunday morning? Go for it.

In a 35 zone - read: Residential or urban area? Reckless endangerment. Period.

 

[Republic of Mass]

The 148 doesn't really bother me; it's the 35 zone.

148 on Route 295 in clear, dry weather early on a Sunday morning? Go for it.

In a 35 zone - read: Residential or urban area? Reckless endangerment. Period.

Early sundays ARE fun on 295... especialy at the north end of it heading south... MMMMMMmmmmmm

 

[Len-2A Training]

The 148 doesn't really bother me; it's the 35 zone.

148 on Route 295 in clear, dry weather early on a Sunday morning? Go for it.

In a 35 zone - read: Residential or urban area? Reckless endangerment. Period.

I'm with Scrivener here! I've done 60 with lights (don't recall if I had siren on or not) responding to a mutual aid call in the next town on Bay Road (Sharon/Stoughton) which is ~30-35 limit. I was very keenly aware that if anyone came out of any of the side streets, the likelihood of a nasty accident was very high.

I don't agree with 20-35mph limits in most places, but very high speeds on purely residential streets is very dangerous and it would be extremely rare for me to cut someone a break!

 

[mark056]

There are excellent reponses to this post. It is not always possible NOT to be stopped, however. Shirley, for years was notorious for the old "flickering license plate light" stop, and I was stopped for that and also once for making "an abrupt stop" at a stop sign, whatever that means. When I worked Mids at the MSP Crime Lab, I was usually stopped in Bolton and Maynard about every 18 months or so, but always by new people who did not know me or my vehicle and except for one time, always for a very nebulous reason such as "driving too close to the right hand side of the road".

If stopped at night, when stopped, turn on all interior lights, so the police officer can see you, and keep your hands in plain view at all times. I cannot emphasize the hands part enough.

Regards,

Mark

 

[Moderator]

Do you have a RI non-resident, were you playing the "Im not "allowing myself to be detained" so RI law exempts me because I have a Mass LTC, or were ya just taking the chance?

I was just passing through, I left Attleboro, was arriving in Bellingham. I am looking for the RIGL but here is the NRA info which I know means squat to a judge.

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/StateLaws.aspx?ST=RI

It is unlawful to carry a handgun on or about one`s person or in any vehicle or conveyance without a license to carry. Exceptions to this prohibition are:

A person in his dwelling house, place of business, or on land possessed by him.

A person licensed to carry in another state, provided he is merely transporting the weapon through the state with no intent to detain himself or remain within Rhode Island.

Law enforcement personnel.

Military personnel when on duty.

Members of organizations authorized to purchase firearms from the U.S. provided they are at or going to or from their places of assembly or target practice.

A person carrying a handgun unloaded and securely wrapped from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or in moving goods from one`s place of abode or business to another.

A person who is transporting a handgun from his home or place of business to a "bona fide target practice range" and back, provided the handgun is broken down, unloaded, and carried openly, or is unloaded and secured in a separate container.

So, to answer your question, Yes I was doing the whole"Im not "allowing myself to be detained" thing.

I relize I was being stupid. But every once in a while our feet get heavy ( I was play Charlie Daniels, got cought up in the mood ). There is a time and place for everything, I donn't shoot targets outside the mall and I should keep my speed on a track.

B.J.