Went for powder storage permit, now need an inspection at the house?

[Section-9]

So I stopped by my fire marshal's office the other day and filled out the paperwork to increase my storage limits. After filling out the paperwork and finding out it was 50 dollars for 5 years, he asks me when can he stop by and inspect the storage units before giving me the permit. Has this happened to anyone else here where the fire marshal has made a visit to your house?

All of my components are stored in a locked metal office style shelving unit. Does this meet requirements of the CMR 13.04/05 regulations? Under CMR 13.05 what is the magazine definition for the storing of smokeless black powder and primers? Any other suggestions or ideas in order to make sure I pass without any issues would be appreciated.

Thanks,
S9

 

[greencobra]

Hellllll no. But I got mine 30 years ago.....for free....good forever or until I die, which ever comes first. I don't even know if we have a fire marshall in the city, then or now. I went to the station where the chief kept his office and walked out with it 10 minutes later. No one asked about storage never mind wanting to see it. The good old days, huh?

 

[DW357]

I just called and left a message with my fire chief about getting a permit. No idea the cost and expiration date. Hope to hear back from him this week.

 

[mikelawtown]

My chief said he didn't know of a permit for ammo , I told him after 10k of Rim and 10k Of Center you need one....He said he would look into it.......3 months ago

 

[mac1911]

I pointed out the limit on primers for the reason for the permit......worked well enough.... I cant see them having any right to a inspection ? maybe somewhere in the CMRs.

 

[Len-2A Training]

My chief said he didn't know of a permit for ammo , I told him after 10k of Rim and 10k Of Center you need one....He said he would look into it.......3 months ago

You should have printed out a copy of 527 CMR 13 (which he should have in a book) and tell him to call the State Fire Marshal's Office if he has questions. I wouldn't wait for 3 months for an "answer"! Thankfully all 3 Fire Chiefs I've dealt with in my town are quite knowledgeable about their jobs and cool with the idea. My latest chief called in one of his FFs and introduced me to him . . . he's a real gun nut like us and brings a group of other FFs to the range every so often for a day of fun!!

I pointed out the limit on primers for the reason for the permit......worked well enough.... I cant see them having any right to a inspection ? maybe somewhere in the CMRs.

IANAL and not certain about this but suspect that something in the laws or CMRs allows an inspection when a "premises" permit is issued . . . to ensure that storage is in compliance with the CMR and done safely. You might look it up in the MGL that the FD operates under (sorry never looked so I have no reference) or associated CMRs (probably 527 CMR xx).

 

[1903Collector]

My permit is for 10K primers / 48lbs smokeless and good for one year. Are you going for more than that? Maybe that is what triggers an inspection? I tried to go for more but my fire chief basically said unless I was a business it wasn't happening.

side note, I also asked if having the permit flags the adress if there is a call to that adress, he said it is supposed too.

 

[white feather]

My permit had an arbitrary number of pounds of powder listed on it. Last year, when we got a new Chief. When it was time for renewal, I brought him a copy of 527 CMR 13 and told him that there were three components of storage: powder, primers, and ammo and that the old permit seemed to ignore two of them. He was very nice and wrote on the new permit: "Permit covers all storage for private use under CMR 13.04 (2)". I was happy. He did ask for an inspection. He want to see that the stuff is in original containers and locked. I have mine in a wooden storage locker (home made). He was happy to see that it was not stored in metal containers that could confine the gases and cause and an explosion if it started to burn. It costs $30.00 per year and has for as long as I have been buying it. It seems a small price to pay to make the Insurance company, Fire Department, and Police Department (relatively/possibly/potentially) happy.
White Feather

Edit: never say that you want to increase your limits! Once you get the permit, you can store up to the amounts listed in 13.04 (2). No need to say exactly what you have or want to have.

 

[Section-9]

Thank you for the information Lens. I tried getting a permit earlier this year and when I called my fire chief he had no idea about the law and it took him 2 weeks to get back to me just to say, well you are not going to store more than X amount of smokeless powder so I wouldn't worry. This did not sit well with me so I waited a few months and called back to try again, this time it seemed he got a bit more training as he was more knowledgeable on the subject. But he wanted to give me a call back because he wanted to review the 527 CMR as there were some changes that were going to implemented to it January 1st 2015. In that time between the call back I found the proposed changes on the mass.gov website and saw that our storage limits were still the same and nothing had changed there.

As for the inspection under 527 CMR 13.04 Section 3 sub section b number 5 (yea they don't make it easy) it states this. Any person who has applied for or has been issued such a permit or a renewal thereof by the marshal, under 527 CMR 13.04(3)(b), shall be deemed to have consented to periodic administrative inspections by the Marshall or his designees of any building, structure, magazine or facility used to store or manufacture such explosive materials and all records relating thereto.

My big question while reviewing the 527 CMR is what classification is our locker that we need to store our materials in. From looking at a few things in the document the first is that the ammo, smokeless powder, black powder, and primers is defined as Class 1 materials. And looking at section 13.05(1)(e) Type 5 magazines are for storage of Class 1 materials. So that makes you think that as long as you meet the locking requirements your all set. But as you look further down the document in section 13.05 there is a table with what type of magazine that should be used. And that is where it gets all confusing as it states that we need to use a Type 4 magazine as black powder is a Class 1.1D while smokeless powder is a Class 1.1C or Class 1.3C. So by looking at table I need to upgrade my storage unit from a type 5 magazine to a type 4.

So please tell me if I am wrong here with any of this and that before the fire marshal comes on out that I should make sure that my cabinets and storage all conform to a Type 4 magazine. I guess that it would not be a Mass law if it wasn't complicated and confusing.

Here is the link to the document http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/dfs/osfm/cmr/cmr-secured/527013.pdf

 

[DW357]

So it's not possible to get a permit for more than the permitted amounts of primers and powders unless you're a small arms business? 10k primers doesn't seem like much for a competitive shooter or a serious reloader I'd assume? But 48lbs of powder is a good amount.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Hellllll no. But I got mine 30 years ago.....for free....good forever or until I die, which ever comes first. I don't even know if we have a fire marshall in the city, then or now. I went to the station where the chief kept his office and walked out with it 10 minutes later. No one asked about storage never mind wanting to see it. The good old days, huh?

Ditto. Jack.

 

[1903Collector]

So it's not possible to get a permit for more than the permitted amounts of primers and powders unless you're a small arms business? 10k primers doesn't seem like much for a competitive shooter or a serious reloader I'd assume? But 48lbs of powder is a good amount.

I was looking at it on GOAL's site, It looks like there is a private and/or commercial use thing, for primers it's 10K private, for commercial its 100K if I am reading it correctly.

 

[Section-9]

The primer count does seem to be low even if its at 10k, esp if you are doing multiple pistol and rifle calibers. I don't know if is considered a primer any longer if you seat the primer into the case but leave it empty. If the CMR is just counting a stand alone primer that is not seated then there some breathing room as the max ammo storage with a permit is 100k depending if it is rim fire, center fire, or shotgun.

 

[atilla]

tell them you shot it all and/or sold it and the permit and the inspection both are no longer necessary.

you're surprised that there's heartache when you've just invited the man into your life?

i think you know what the correct solution to this problem is moving forward, OP.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Thank you for the information Lens. I tried getting a permit earlier this year and when I called my fire chief he had no idea about the law and it took him 2 weeks to get back to me just to say, well you are not going to store more than X amount of smokeless powder so I wouldn't worry. This did not sit well with me so I waited a few months and called back to try again, this time it seemed he got a bit more training as he was more knowledgeable on the subject. But he wanted to give me a call back because he wanted to review the 527 CMR as there were some changes that were going to implemented to it January 1st 2015. In that time between the call back I found the proposed changes on the mass.gov website and saw that our storage limits were still the same and nothing had changed there.

As for the inspection under 527 CMR 13.04 Section 3 sub section b number 5 (yea they don't make it easy) it states this. Any person who has applied for or has been issued such a permit or a renewal thereof by the marshal, under 527 CMR 13.04(3)(b), shall be deemed to have consented to periodic administrative inspections by the Marshall or his designees of any building, structure, magazine or facility used to store or manufacture such explosive materials and all records relating thereto.

My big question while reviewing the 527 CMR is what classification is our locker that we need to store our materials in. From looking at a few things in the document the first is that the ammo, smokeless powder, black powder, and primers is defined as Class 1 materials. And looking at section 13.05(1)(e) Type 5 magazines are for storage of Class 1 materials. So that makes you think that as long as you meet the locking requirements your all set. But as you look further down the document in section 13.05 there is a table with what type of magazine that should be used. And that is where it gets all confusing as it states that we need to use a Type 4 magazine as black powder is a Class 1.1D while smokeless powder is a Class 1.1C or Class 1.3C. So by looking at table I need to upgrade my storage unit from a type 5 magazine to a type 4.

So please tell me if I am wrong here with any of this and that before the fire marshal comes on out that I should make sure that my cabinets and storage all conform to a Type 4 magazine. I guess that it would not be a Mass law if it wasn't complicated and confusing.

Here is the link to the document http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/dfs/osfm/cmr/cmr-secured/527013.pdf

I suspect most of the magazine requirements you are reading are for commercial enterprises, not for home use.

Limits for home use can not be negotiated upwards from what is in the CMR.

Also TTBOMK there is only ONE fire marshal in MA and he's a political appointee, not usually a FF. It is someone from your local FD (chief, deputy, FF) who will come to inspect whatever.

 

[DW357]

Limits for home use can not be negotiated upwards from what is in the CMR.

Damn.

 

[jpm]

So please tell me if I am wrong here with any of this and that before the fire marshal comes on out that I should make sure that my cabinets and storage all conform to a Type 4 magazine. I guess that it would not be a Mass law if it wasn't complicated and confusing.

Here is the link to the document http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/dfs/osfm/cmr/cmr-secured/527013.pdf

Either you or the chief are confused on the section you should be referring to. You should be requesting a PERMIT under 527 CMR 13.04 section 2, NOT 3.

The very first sentence of that section specifically states you are exempt from the provisions required under section 3 if you have a PERMIT and are storing the limits in that section. If you are exceeding those amounts, then you need to go with a LICENSE which then is regulated by section 3.

Be sure you're requesting the correct thing from the correct party.

 

[01SVTvert]

I suspect most of the magazine requirements you are reading are for commercial enterprises, not for home use.

Limits for home use can not be negotiated upwards from what is in the CMR.

Also TTBOMK there is only ONE fire marshal in MA and he's a political appointee, not usually a FF. It is someone from your local FD (chief, deputy, FF) who will come to inspect whatever.

I agree with Len, THIS is the problem I see repeated by some FDs. They read and then think that the explosive magazine requirement ( in a separate section of the CMR) is for residential smokeless powder / primer storage. If I am correct and have read 13.11,4,f correctly the ONLY requirement for storage is for the primers and powder to be in the original container (powder) and in a locked cabinet, container or box. Thats it! I had to educate the issuing person in my area about this so that they didnt use the commercial or manufacturing explosives requirement for storage and thus requiring a big upgrade.

Ask yourself this, would they require a huge, thick wooden box with heavy duty construction (at a minimum) and then allow wal mart and every other place that sells ammo or powder to just put it on a shelf or in a glass front cabinet?

PS I also had a site visit.

 

[Section-9]

Thank you for all of the information, I will roll the dice and schedule an appointment next week to see what happens. I will let you know of the outcome no matter what.

S9

 

[DW357]

Thank you for all of the information, I will roll the dice and schedule an appointment next week to see what happens. I will let you know of the outcome no matter what.

S9

I've been calling my fire chief and left a message but he has yet to call back. Even went to the department yesterday at 3 since I got out of work early and was told he leaves at 2 on Fridays. I'm like really!? Wtf.

 

[scooter]

I got a permit as well and the the FD came to inspect. They just wanted to make sure it was locked up in storage that's all.

 

[Section-9]

Achievement unlocked!!! - I called the fire department today and was able to get in touch with the fire prevention officer who is the one who does all of the inspections. He asked me if I had some time today as his schedule was free and we agreed to meet at 2:30 at my house. All and all it was a fairly painless process as I met him at the door, showed him where i lock all of my components up, he jiggled the handles a few times on my locked cabinets (never asked to open them) and said we are good here. Then he handed me my paper all filled out and said good luck with reloading and was on his way. I did ask him about the magazine classifications and he said that is for commercial purposes and not to worry about it.

Thank you everyone for the info and hopefully this tread will help someone else out so they don't over complicate the process to what it already is.

S9

 

[dcmdon]

This was a great thread for me also. It demystified things a lot.

It appears that the limits of section 2 are quite high for everything except for primers. Which for me isn't an issue since I can store most of my primers in CT.

Has anyone looked into how the permit would affect insurance coverage?

 

[Fixxah]

Don't ask, don't tell.

 

[dcmdon]

Don't ask, don't tell.

That would be my perspective if I didn't have an off site place to store stuff. But what about insurance. I'd care more about being indemnified in case of a fire than anything else.

 

[tpm]

Has anybody in North Attleboro, MA applied for a permit? I stopped by the fire station yesterday and the guy behind the counter didn't know anything about the permit other than on the permit cost sheet it cost $40. I liked how instead of guessing he came right out and said he didn't know much about them but thinks they are only good for 1 year. Is this true?

 

[cockpitbob]

Don't ask, don't tell.

That would be my perspective if I didn't have an off site place to store stuff. But what about insurance. I'd care more about being indemnified in case of a fire than anything else.

It's all about the insurance. If the house burns and you haven't obeyed some fire laws they may not pay. If a firefighter is injured you might get sued or have criminal charges.

 

[DW357]

My friend's brother is the fire inspector in my city and I just got off the phone with him and he thinks the LTC covers me for storing powder, primers etc. Not exceeding 50 pounds of powder and 10,000 primers. I texted him the link to GOALs website about storage and he texted me a page from his fire code/regulation book:
View attachment 119553

He asked if I wanted him to contact the state fire Marshall and I said hold on for now. But Im waiting to hear back from him regarding what those highlighted regs are, state? Federal?

Regardless it's pretty well defined in the MGLs about the storage amounts. It's clear that I'd need a permit just thought Id share my experience with my fire inspector.

 

[bigblue]

He is quoting the International Fire Code, which I assume is superseded by the state CMR's. I assume.

 

[DW357]

He is quoting the International Fire Code, which I assume is superseded by the state CMR's. I assume.

Ya, he just texted me back saying that its from the Internation Fire Code but he doesn't know or didn't mention anything about it being superseded by state CMRs. I think he's going to look into more and get back to me. Especially after I sent him the link to the mass.gov website and the regulations regarding permits/licenses/registration etc which makes it pretty clear that you need a permit for anything more than 1k primers or 16 pounds of powder.