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Update on Blended Learning
- Thread starter robmcd
- Start date
Just talked with the Lt in charge of approving courses. He says he has a pile of 10-11 courses he needs to review on his desk, but the CMR requirements for courses will be changed so he has held off on approving them. He said he anticipates a legal knowledge requirement and live-fire requirement for all future courses, and an expiration date as legal info is subject to change. They dont sound excited about a computer only class. Personally, I wont bring someone to the range I havent taught start to finish.
He said hed like to get these approved and off his desk in the interim but is waiting for further guidance. When the CMRs are to be changed there will be public hearings, so it may be a good idea to stay on top of that.
As far as LTC-002 is concerned if that material is covered completely LTC-002 can still be used as far as the State Police are concerned. He said he will not comment on any issues between us and the NRA, he can say only that the curriculum remains on the roster. The possible friction point is that he said it could be a problem if we arent certified by the NRA to teach the course, but didn't really elaborate, and I understand why they wouldn't want to.
It would probably be helpful if other instructors inquired about this from time to time, although he made it pretty clear that its in the forefront of his mind as there is a pile on his desk.
ETA: forgot to mention, no definite timeline but hopefully soon. The CMR side he said takes some time.
Hope this helps
Mike
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He said hed like to get these approved and off his desk in the interim but is waiting for further guidance. When the CMRs are to be changed there will be public hearings, so it may be a good idea to stay on top of that.
As far as LTC-002 is concerned if that material is covered completely LTC-002 can still be used as far as the State Police are concerned. He said he will not comment on any issues between us and the NRA, he can say only that the curriculum remains on the roster. The possible friction point is that he said it could be a problem if we arent certified by the NRA to teach the course, but didn't really elaborate, and I understand why they wouldn't want to.
It would probably be helpful if other instructors inquired about this from time to time, although he made it pretty clear that its in the forefront of his mind as there is a pile on his desk.
ETA: forgot to mention, no definite timeline but hopefully soon. The CMR side he said takes some time.
Hope this helps
Mike
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They are accepting the certs for LTC-002 since not everyone submits the day after they take a course. It's still valid but that does not mean that you or I can teach it now. NRA's lawyers will have your head on a platter for that and they have already said so emphatically in an online NRA Instructors forum I participate in.
They didn't tell anyone outside NRA much of anything. There were tons of unanswered questions until the day it went live . . . and there are still questions. NRA originally said cost of Phase I would be ~$20 (nominal) and then landed with a $60 cost! They speak with a forked tongue!
I guarantee you that most instructors have no clue what is REALLY legally required using the portal . . . vs. what FRB would "like you to do" but isn't required by law. Every time I teach people (including instructors) my MA Gun Law Seminar they say that they didn't realize this and that. Look at the questions here on NES about using the portal to get an idea what I'm talking about.
See my comment above. If you write NRA BP on the cert and NRA lawyers find out, they will crucify you in court. MSP won't give a damn but NRA does, it is their IP.
When I became an instructor, I took the training with Jon Green and the late Darius Arbabi. Both courses were taught together and it took 2.5 days to get certified. I didn't know that you could take just one or the other, not that I would have done so. Personally I like HFS better than BP and also bring AK, AR, etc. for the range (not optional with me if on home turf). I feel that after HFS and shooting a variety of various guns they are better prepared for real life with firearms.
I agree with you here. Just a matter of time.
The IP issue could get complex, but I agree its best not to test the waters.
Maybe not a bad idea to call our local reps to get on the powers that be about this.
Mike
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From Mike's post above!
Some things here I want to call your attention to:
- CMR changes usually take typically 6 months or longer to get approved.
- MSP is holding up approval of the 10-11 course proposals on their desk until the CMR changes. This means that the new blended course likely won’t be approved either for many months to come.
- They want to invoke live-fire ONLY courses as acceptable.
- They plan on making certs expire after a set amount of time with the excuse that laws change. There is no provision for this in MGL, but I do suspect that they can get away with adding this to the CMR.
- Requiring a “legal knowledge requirement” to teach the class will be interesting! Most currently are clueless of the laws, so it should be interesting to see what they come up with. I’m betting that instructors will have to take an MPI course on MA gun laws for $$.
- They are baiting instructors to violate NRA’s IP by continuing to teach the now unapproved NRA BP (not blended) course. NRA has already gone on record saying that their legal department will be all over those that violate their IP. Likely those instructors caught will have their teaching credentials from NRA stripped.
Some things here I want to call your attention to:
- CMR changes usually take typically 6 months or longer to get approved.
- MSP is holding up approval of the 10-11 course proposals on their desk until the CMR changes. This means that the new blended course likely won’t be approved either for many months to come.
- They want to invoke live-fire ONLY courses as acceptable.
- They plan on making certs expire after a set amount of time with the excuse that laws change. There is no provision for this in MGL, but I do suspect that they can get away with adding this to the CMR.
- Requiring a “legal knowledge requirement” to teach the class will be interesting! Most currently are clueless of the laws, so it should be interesting to see what they come up with. I’m betting that instructors will have to take an MPI course on MA gun laws for $$.
- They are baiting instructors to violate NRA’s IP by continuing to teach the now unapproved NRA BP (not blended) course. NRA has already gone on record saying that their legal department will be all over those that violate their IP. Likely those instructors caught will have their teaching credentials from NRA stripped.
At the very least. My guess is the first instructors caught doing this will be crucified (as in, $$$) as a lesson to others.
They were clear to only say that the material in LTC-002 is still accepted by them. As stated they recognized there could be a problem if the NRA does not permit that course to be taught. I didn't expect legal advise from them.
Also point of clarification, they said they want to get these approved in the interim rather than waiting on the CMR process, but did not have a definite timeline.
Mike
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Also point of clarification, they said they want to get these approved in the interim rather than waiting on the CMR process, but did not have a definite timeline.
Mike
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I got my NRA instructor cert about five years ago and taught at a range for a while. When people ask me to teach a private course these days I tell them no, because I wouldn't even know where to begin with all these new changes and pitfalls involved. The NRA is just awful in their role as an educational organization.
Im gonna email my reps and see if I can nudge them to get the MSP to approve courses in the interim and chsb to un**** themselves.
Mike
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Mike
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The BP and HFS courses haven't changed their gun content over the past 5 years. MA gun law has changed and my seminar teaches more than enough to update you and others that are willing to invest 6 hours and $90 to learn it all. It'll also allow you to intelligently answer all the after class questions that instructors get hit with (much of it not part of the BFS course itself). And if you get a group of students together I will bring the course to your area. Otherwise my schedule is on my website (URL in signature of every post, but I'm told not visible in Tapatalk).
As usual, rep Walsh has been the only of my reps helpful with this. Those of you well appraised about whats going on, it may be a good idea to contact your reps. For those in Walsh's district, don't waste your time with the others.
He was also pro supressor bill iirc.
Mike
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He was also pro supressor bill iirc.
Mike
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Not to beat a dead horse, when I look up the phase 2 course on the NRA class site there are many instructors in Mass offering it.
Is it safe to say they will not be able to issue the MSP Certificate for Basic Pistol LTC 002, if so I feel bad for the people signing up.
Is it safe to say they will not be able to issue the MSP Certificate for Basic Pistol LTC 002, if so I feel bad for the people signing up.
The quality of instructors is lacking. They dont understand the laws they are supposed to be teaching, and they probably dont understand they cant sign off on said classes either.
Mike
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Mike
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It's a pretty simple concept, you can't teach "course A" (new unapproved blended course) and put on a certificate that the student completed "course B" (LTC-02) or "course C" (LTC-07).
You get caught and both NRA as well as MSP will revoke your instructor certification.
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Do you have specific information as to the MSP position on this, or is this simply your interpretation being presented as fact?
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Well the NRA has shown they are not against yanking credentials of people who don't do their courses as dictated. As for MSP, I could see them writing back and saying "you did not teach a qualifying course" if they caught on, and the people on your roster would get flagged for not having a valid safety course certificate. Just my thought as to how it could play out.
MSP has told me in no unclear terms the blended learning is not approved.
Mike
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Good, actual information - thanks.
NP. And to think, all I had to do was call and ask. 
For the record, I dont think it would hurt for some other people to start bugging them to get on with approving courses that are submitted.
Mike
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For the record, I dont think it would hurt for some other people to start bugging them to get on with approving courses that are submitted. Mike
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NP. And to think, all I had to do was call and ask.
Mike
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I fear you will run into a case of there being so many courses that are similar in nature, that some wont get approved due to redundancy. I also question how many people actually use some of the currently listed courses to get an LTC in the first place.
I have had phone conversation as well as several emails with the MSP Leut in charge of approving courses. The new blended course is a separate and distinct course that has been submitted to the MSP by the NRA for approval. As of a week ago, it is not yet approved.
I don't want to post the long email that he sent me here, but they are evaluating a bunch of course submissions as well as the requirements for courses and licensing of instructors.
One hangup with the NRA course is that it does not have a Mass Law component which is something that going forward they would like to require. He also indicated that they are looking at the possibility of live fire requirements. (when I read 140 131p (c) it seems to say that live fire is a requirement anyway so I am not sure why the MSP has approved courses in the past without this component)
With regard to the NRA who I have had numerous emails- they have told me on no uncertain terms that after the May cut off date, NRA instructors are not allowed to conduct the old Basic pistol course (LTC-02). This was after I appealed to them to consider allowing Mass instructors a transition until after the new course was approved.
I also asked the NRA what instructors are supposed to do with the inventory of student packets for the old Basic Pistol Course (LTC-02), and they didn't even reply to this part of the question.
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Thats interesting. As of the beginning of last week I was told they are not currently reviewing courses as they were awaiting guidance from higher up. When did you hear from them?
Mike
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DPR
NES Member
I called NRA at
| Instructor Program Coordinator | 703-267-1428. |
Last email that I received was 6/10/16. He did indicate that they have a bunch of courses on the table, but they first need to come up with a plan for course requirements and instructor licensing. This could be the "higher up" input that you are referring to.
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DPR
NES Member
I don't think anything is incorrect. I'm not saying the NRA is ok with anyone continuing to teach the basic pistol course, we all know they've prohibited it. I (and other instructors) feel that the NRA has left MA instructors with little option/direction on the issue. We're all big boys and have opinions on whether we can continue to give the MA BFS/LTC-02 certificate and how to go about doing it.
That excuse wont stop the NRA from coming after you unfortunately.
On another note, I heard the same from MSP RE approvals, that is why Ive contacted my rep. Hopefully they can fix the problem higher up so information flows back down to MSP.
Mike
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