True "value" of a pre-ban mags

[Terminator03]

Oh boy, here come the fudds to explain to me what size my EDC should be and how many rounds I need to carry. Care to weigh in on the type of underwear I should be wearing or what I should have for breakfast?

I hope you weren't referring to my previous post. I don't care to dictate what anyone else is comfortable with! I was simply stating my personal preference. I like to travel light whenever possible, but have what I need, which is why I prefer sub compacts. In theory, I'd love to carry one of my 1911s, but due to comfort, I just wouldn't do it every day, so I choose something I WILL always have on me.

 

[StevieP]

Oh boy, here come the fudds to explain to me what size my EDC should be and how many rounds I need to carry. Care to weigh in on the type of underwear I should be wearing or what I should have for breakfast?

I hope you're not referring to me, either. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I'm all about capitalism. Let the market determine the price of anything, everywhere. Just because *I* wouldn't do something doesn't mean others shouldn't be able to.

Nowhere did I suggest anyone should do anything they don't want. I just said "I don't get it." *I* wouldn't pay outrageous amounts of money for a pre-ban mag for a carry gun. Law of diminishing returns applies.

I have spent, I think, up to $30 for 20-rd pre-ban AR mags.

I just said I wouldn't do the same for a carry gun, especially if it meant the possibility of getting jammed up for it.

YMMV, yada yada. It's your money and by all means do what you want.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled drivel.

 

[kingfisher]

One reason people in restricted states want pre-ban standard capacity mags is because Glock cripple-mags (OEM 10-rounders for G17, etc.) aren't reliable enough for self-defense.

Interesting. I'll check that out.

What happens with them? (Out of curiosity ). I've had glocks for 10 years but don't think I've ever run a single jhp through a cripple mag.

I've got a real estate agent coming over soon, so I don't have time to gather the specifics and compose a good answer right now, but I'll try to do that soon.

(Yes, I'm FINALLY departing MA and moving to my house in Free America! I plan to leave most of my pre-ban Glock mags behind—none of which I paid $170 for! I actually like things about the old U-notch mags, though, so as long as they are as reliable as new mags, I'll keep some of those for EDC—especially if I ever come back to MA *only to visit*—but I'll probably get rid of all the drop-free square-notch mags, as those will be easily replaced with brand new 17-rounders that also drop free.)

 

[drgrant]

a couple years ago, I had brand new G19 with 10 round mags, and it would almost always hang-up on the l last round in the mag, even with fmj's

Weird.... I have a few G17 10 rounders but I think I only have one G19 10 rounder, ill have to test it out next time, then again, that could be a bad omen... my G19 has literally never had a single malfunction since I bought it. (2008). It was one of the few guns that survived "the great purge".

-Mike

 

[MarkT]

I'm willing to pay a little more for preban because I live in a commy state and it seems silly to me to carry a gun with less than the maximum capacity mag (or standard capacity) that it was designed to have. At least for the guns that I carry or would consider to use defensively.

 

[gunofthrones]

Don't be a sucker. Don't buy glock.

 

[bigblue]

Don't be a sucker. Don't buy glock.

Don't be an idiot, carry a pistol with at least 15 rounds. But who needs more than two rounds in their gun right Joe?

 

[MarkT]

Don't be a sucker. Don't buy glock.

I bought my first gun 20 something years ago. Glock had never appealed to me, I find them the be relatively plain and somewhat ugly. But I started doing 3gun events last year, and for that type of event you really need 3 guns with as much capacity as possible.
There are a lot of good guns with high capacity out there, but not as much to choose from if you live in Mass.

So I bought my first Glock (G17) this year, with 3 pre-bans. I couldn't be happier with it. For a full size gun loaded with 18 rounds, it is relatively light, and I can appendix carry all day without any discomfort (except when I'm tying my shoes). Not to mention it shoots great.

In terms of maintenance, takedown is a breeze, and the interior of the slide is wide open. It is by far the easiest pistol to clean that I've ever owned.

In terms of customization, Glocks are the pistol equivalent of an AR-15.

So, I'm not a fanboy by any stretch, but based on what I've stated above, I would recommend one to anyone.

 

[gunofthrones]

I bought my first gun 20 something years ago. Glock had never appealed to me, I find them the be relatively plain and somewhat ugly. But I started doing 3gun events last year, and for that type of event you really need 3 guns with as much capacity as possible.
There are a lot of good guns with high capacity out there, but not as much to choose from if you live in Mass.

So I bought my first Glock (G17) this year, with 3 pre-bans. I couldn't be happier with it. For a full size gun loaded with 18 rounds, it is relatively light, and I can appendix carry all day without any discomfort (except when I'm tying my shoes). Not to mention it shoots great.

In terms of maintenance, takedown is a breeze, and the interior of the slide is wide open. It is by far the easiest pistol to clean that I've ever owned.

In terms of customization, Glocks are the pistol equivalent of an AR-15.

So, I'm not a fanboy by any stretch, but based on what I've stated above, I would recommend one to anyone.

Op was complainning about the glock preban mag price. I just told him that he can avoid the crazy price by not buying any glock. otherwise, he will have to suck it up.

 

[kalash]

Don't be a sucker. Don't buy glock.

Hi-Point is where it's at boiii

 

[Trimone]

Glock 19 preban square notch mags

With that said, I will buy 4 Glock 19 preban square notch mags from you for $75 each.

 

[MarkT]

With that said, I will buy 4 Glock 19 preban square notch mags from you for $75 each.

If I owned a Glock 19, I would probably buy 2 G19 pre-bans, and 2- G17 pre-bans.

The G19 mag in the gun and the G17 mag as a backup.

 

[pupchow]

... I fear the magazine capacity law (including its exemption for pre-bans) could be used in the very same way. Yes, sometimes... maybe even often... it's a throw-away. But who says it has to be? When they want to get you and they can't get you on anything else, why not use it to jam you up?

This just in...

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2017/03/springfield_man_acquitted_of_a_1.html

"SPRINGFIELD -- A Hampden Superior Court judge has sentenced Jonathan Mitchell to five years in state prison for carrying a firearm without a license.

A jury on March 16 acquitted Mitchell, 30, of Springfield, of attempted murder in connection with an alleged shooting in the city's entertainment district last spring, but convicted him of carrying a firearm without a license. Judge Edward J. McDonough had set sentencing for March 24, when he sentenced Mitchell to the five years.

Mitchell, who is represented by Joe A. Smith III, was acquitted of armed assault with intent to murder, assault and battery with a dangerous weapon causing serious bodily injury, assault and battery with a firearm and possession of a large-capacity feeding device."

.........

"The gun in the incident was a .40-caliber Taurus with one bullet in the chamber and 12 rounds in the magazine."

 

[Rob Boudrie]

This just in...

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2017/03/springfield_man_acquitted_of_a_1.html

"SPRINGFIELD -- A Hampden Superior Court judge has sentenced Jonathan Mitchell to five years in state prison for carrying a firearm without a license.
...

I wonder how many of those 5 years were punishment for not copping a plea, and how many were because the court figured he was guilty of the additional charge for which he was acquitted.

[FONT=&quot]Jurors heard testimony that Newsom didn't cooperate with police after the early morning shooting, except to give them his information before he was taken by ambulance to an area hospital.[/FONT]

This could be grounds for appeal if his attorney can convince the court this was an attempt to inform jurors that he exercised his 5th amendment rights.

 

[mikelawtown]

Weird.... I have a few G17 10 rounders but I think I only have one G19 10 rounder, ill have to test it out next time, then again, that could be a bad omen... my G19 has literally never had a single malfunction since I bought it. (2008). It was one of the few guns that survived "the great purge".

-Mike

Yea it's weird as I have a dozen 10 rounder G19 mags for my sub2k and never had that issue with JHP
I got lucky 2 weeks ago and scored a Sq notch pre 19 mag for 14.95

 

[MachineHead]

Yea it's weird as I have a dozen 10 rounder G19 mags for my sub2k and never had that issue with JHP

I got lucky 2 weeks ago and scored a Sq notch pre 19 mag for 14.95

You do realize that's like getting a locomotive in 1886 to push a DeLorean to 88 mph, right? [lol]

Good find!

 

[Chevy 2 65]

Don't be a sucker, and buy a glock.

fixed

 

[Chevy 2 65]

This just in...

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2017/03/springfield_man_acquitted_of_a_1.html

"SPRINGFIELD -- A Hampden Superior Court judge has sentenced Jonathan Mitchell to five years in state prison for carrying a firearm without a license.

A jury on March 16 acquitted Mitchell, 30, of Springfield, of attempted murder in connection with an alleged shooting in the city's entertainment district last spring, but convicted him of carrying a firearm without a license. Judge Edward J. McDonough had set sentencing for March 24, when he sentenced Mitchell to the five years.

Mitchell, who is represented by Joe A. Smith III, was acquitted of armed assault with intent to murder, assault and battery with a dangerous weapon causing serious bodily injury, assault and battery with a firearm and possession of a large-capacity feeding device."

.........

"The gun in the incident was a .40-caliber Taurus with one bullet in the chamber and 12 rounds in the magazine."

Jury Fail
"Jurors heard testimony that Newsom didn't cooperate with police after the early morning shooting, except to give them his information before he was taken by ambulance to an area hospital."

 

[wmass]

This just in...

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2017/03/springfield_man_acquitted_of_a_1.html

"SPRINGFIELD -- A Hampden Superior Court judge has sentenced Jonathan Mitchell to five years in state prison for carrying a firearm without a license.

A jury on March 16 acquitted Mitchell, 30, of Springfield, of attempted murder in connection with an alleged shooting in the city's entertainment district last spring, but convicted him of carrying a firearm without a license. Judge Edward J. McDonough had set sentencing for March 24, when he sentenced Mitchell to the five years.

Mitchell, who is represented by Joe A. Smith III, was acquitted of armed assault with intent to murder, assault and battery with a dangerous weapon causing serious bodily injury, assault and battery with a firearm and possession of a large-capacity feeding device."

.........

"The gun in the incident was a .40-caliber Taurus with one bullet in the chamber and 12 rounds in the magazine."

Mitchell is a piece of shit frequent flyer in the system.

 

[drgrant]

This just in...

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2017/03/springfield_man_acquitted_of_a_1.html

"SPRINGFIELD -- A Hampden Superior Court judge has sentenced Jonathan Mitchell to five years in state prison for carrying a firearm without a license.

A jury on March 16 acquitted Mitchell, 30, of Springfield, of attempted murder in connection with an alleged shooting in the city's entertainment district last spring, but convicted him of carrying a firearm without a license. Judge Edward J. McDonough had set sentencing for March 24, when he sentenced Mitchell to the five years.

Mitchell, who is represented by Joe A. Smith III, was acquitted of armed assault with intent to murder, assault and battery with a dangerous weapon causing serious bodily injury, assault and battery with a firearm and possession of a large-capacity feeding device."

.........

"The gun in the incident was a .40-caliber Taurus with one bullet in the chamber and 12 rounds in the magazine."

Nice try, but LCAFD without a license is not an AWB charge.

Everyone with an LTC is exempt from "LCAFD without a license" and cannot be charged with it. (well, or at least it's not going to stick... lol)

The standard of evidence for it is pretty low, too. All they have to prove is someone possessed the mag, and didn't have an LTC (or some other legal exception. )

My guess is in this case, though, the jury didn't convict him on that charge because the thing in question wasn't even an LCAFD, or there was some other
evidence issue related to it. (I can easily see a defense attorney making a convincing argument if that piece of evidence had been mishandled, etc. )

The far more interesting thing would be finding out how he got off on the violent stuff; maybe they determined that despite his nefarious background he was
defending himself? Or there was more incompetence on the part of the PD.

-Mike

 

[EJFudd]

Mitchell is a piece of shit frequent flyer in the system.

Understatement of the decade. Springfield has turned into an open sewer of drugs and violent crime.

The MassLive snippet doesn't even begin to do this case justice. Follow the MassLive links back in time to get a better perspective.

 

[drgrant]

Understatement of the decade. Springfield has turned into an open sewer of drugs and violent crime.

The MassLive snippet doesn't even begin to do this case justice. Follow the MassLive links back in time to get a better perspective.

Would be fun to see how they managed to screw up prosecuting this guy... the article said he was acquitted on a bunch of things, but because of shitty news writing its also possible some of these charges simply got dropped along the way, too.... the mass court system really sucks for electronically digging into cases like this.

-Mike

 

[Chevy 2 65]

Mitchell is a piece of shit frequent flyer in the system.

and how is at fault for all that milage flown?

 

[EJFudd]

Would be fun to see how they managed to screw up prosecuting this guy... the article said he was acquitted on a bunch of things, but because of shitty news writing its also possible some of these charges simply got dropped along the way, too.... the mass court system really sucks for electronically digging into cases like this.

-Mike

Well, two points Mike: 1) His victim didn't cooperate (Gee, what a shocker!) and 2) He was convicted on other counts. Somehow, that part got misreported or perhaps the other charges didn't add any additional years to his sentence?

 

[dwarven1]

Thanks for the tips!

It really took me a while to figure out what I was supposed to be looking for, and I'm definitely still not clear on some of the details, especially of the followers. I gather that they should all be 15rds and that some have markings (not date markings, but markings) It's definitely not like the Glock and SIG mags I have shopped for in the past where it is fairly easy to tell.

For the most part I just want a couple for my compact for carry. I can't find pictures but it is said they, "stick out a little" so it may not even be worth my time."

Well, I've got a couple of pre-ban CZ75 mags still, and the ONLY markings on them are 5, 10 and 15 in the witness holes. Ones for the Compact hold 14. The CZ-75 prebans are about 4.75" from the baseplate straight up to the feed lips at any point. But if you want to see how much they stick out, we can meet up sometime at Ayer Sportsman's or in Waltham. And no, they're not for sale. Yet.

Read his post that I quoted above. He claims that it is simple to tell pre-ban from post-ban Glock mags. That is what I addressed.

I honestly know nothing about markings/lack of same wrt CZ mags.

Like I said, absolutely none on mine.

It's well-known in the industry. Shooting enough premium hollow points through the cripple-mags exposes the problem.

When you have time, if you have links to this, I'd be interested in reading them. I'd never heard it. (and I'm not a Glock guy, so I've got no dog in that fight. I'm merely curious and want to learn more about something I'd never heard before.)

 

[kingfisher]

What happens with them?...

Basically, this:

...I had brand new G19 with 10 round mags, and it would almost always hang-up on the l last round in the mag, even with fmj's

... but not only on the last round.

There have been a couple of large tests done by police departments that I know about. Roughly 10 years ago, ten OEM 10-round G17 mags were tested by a west coast department. All 10 cripple-mags malfunctioned, but none of the standard capacity mags in the test had any problems. "9mm3" followers were substituted for the funky followers in the cripple mags, and they were still not as reliable as 17-round mags.

Within the last few years, another test was done with Glock OEM 10-round G19 mags. Ten proven-reliable Gen3 G19 pistols were used, testing the 147 grain practice and duty ammo used by many police departments. By about the 500-round mark, all of the pistols had stoppages due to the 10-round cripple mags. As with the previous testing, the good (standard #3) followers were substituted, and all ten pistols still choked within the next 500 rounds.

Based on a tip from someone within the Glock organization, they even tried replacing the springs in the G19 cripple-mags with springs from G17 cripple-mags, but they continued to experience malfunctions... most typically nose-dive failures to feed and jams within the first several rounds in the mag.

Please note: All of this testing seems to have been done with 147-grain ammo, as that's what was/is in use at these police departments. Federal AE9FP 147gr FMJ practice ammo is commonly used because in weight and velocity it mimics Federal P9HST2 147gr JHP, a common duty ammo. AE9FP has a flat nose (like a hollow point), and that "non-round nose" could be part of the problem.

Round-nose 115gr and 124gr ammo may not exhibit the same problems, but I took great interest in these tests and recorded the info because I prefer carrying 147gr ammo. Winchester RA9T 147gr JHP duty ammo was also used for some of the testing.

When you have time, if you have links to this, I'd be interested in reading them. I'd never heard it. (and I'm not a Glock guy, so I've got no dog in that fight. I'm merely curious and want to learn more about something I'd never heard before.)

Sorry, no links, as I copied all of this material some time ago for my own records. I can tell you that the sources are Dr. Gary Roberts and some other people who are similarly in a position to know. They did not divulge official police department documents or anything, but I personally trust their accounts of the test results.

Dr. Roberts also stated, "In each Glock Armorer Course I have taken, the Glock Rep has clearly stated the neutered 10 rd magazines are NOT as reliable as the correct standard capacity magazines designed for the pistol and to NOT rely on the neutered 10 rd magazines for duty or defensive use."

It seems that Glock rushed the 10-round cripple mags to market to comply with changing mag capacity laws and that they did not test the mags to the same degree that they tested the mags that were designed to be used with their pistols. That makes sense to me, and I do not hold it against them.

Everybody should test their defensive ammo with the pistol it will be used in to make sure it functions reliably. (How many hundreds of rounds fired without a malfunction is a personal preference, but I would recommend firing at various tempos and positions in simulated self-defense scenarios.)

Yea it's weird as I have a dozen 10 rounder G19 mags for my sub2k and never had that issue with JHP

That's a good data point with respect to that firearm, but just so everyone understands it doesn't say anything about cripple-mags in Glock pistols. The internals of a sub2k are not the same as a Glock, and everything (firearm, mag, ammo, person operating the firearm, etc.) all work as a system, so changing just one little thing in that system can make a difference.

 

[bigblue]

I will offer another data point: I have half a dozen Glock pistols with 10 round mags for each and have not witnessed feed problems in any of them with Federal HST JHP rounds. 43, 26, 19, 17, 21, etc.


ETA While I do not carry cripple mags, I always test a new firearm with the full suite of equipment I have available. None of my Glocks have ever failed a function test with numerous brands and weights of carry ammo. I also regularly shoot coated 147 grain flat nose bullets out of several different 9mm Glocks using 10 round magazines, both 19 and 17 size.

 

[endus]

Well, I've got a couple of pre-ban CZ75 mags still, and the ONLY markings on them are 5, 10 and 15 in the witness holes. Ones for the Compact hold 14. The CZ-75 prebans are about 4.75" from the baseplate straight up to the feed lips at any point. But if you want to see how much they stick out, we can meet up sometime at Ayer Sportsman's or in Waltham. And no, they're not for sale. Yet.

Thanks, this is helpful! Are there 14 round prebans for the Compact? My impression was no.

So, I picked up a full size 75 this past weekend so I can now see how much they stick out. Kind of a bummer, probably not worth it for carry. Too clunky and likely to snag on something.

 

[drgrant]

Round-nose 115gr and 124gr ammo may not exhibit the same problems, but I took great interest in these tests and recorded the info because I prefer carrying 147gr ammo. Winchester RA9T 147gr JHP duty ammo was also used for some of the testing.

This would explain why I never ran into problems. I don't use 147s because I don't like the fact that they feel weak when you shoot them. (well, unless you get hot 147s...) I want that extra recoil working the gun. (I prefer 124gr for defensive use) Then again my sample rate is pretty low anyways.... I've only ever used my cripplemags on occasion in USPSA as backup mags, most of the time I just use FML/DF square notch mags for 95% of my shooting.

The other problem with this issue is because Glock made about 9 billion pistols and magazines its difficult to keep track of the problems over
time or versus time. There are likely guys who have never had problems with cripplemags with any kind of ammunition.

Actually, I will comment on this a little further... I used G21 cripplemags a shitload for bowling pin shooting. The only problem I ever had with them is the plastic at the front of the mag would get dinged up from (something) and it sometimes keeps the empty mags from dropping free. Never a single jam on my G21. (although it has hit me in the face with brass, but that's another story).

-Mike

 

[hv55maxx]

My feelings exactly. Putting aside how lame and worthless the law is, I still can't figure out why otherwise sane people pay ridiculous amounts of money for old, worn out (and often damaged) Glock pre-ban magazines when brand new 10-rounders can be had for chump change. With recent Glock magazine sale prices, it's about a 10:1 ratio on average. Fortunately, it's usually not that bad for other brands although it can still be a royal pain in the ass finding what you need.

And other than the Glock folks, do that many of us really EDC pistols that even hold more than 10+1 rounds in a non-extended mag configuration? My physically largest EDC is still my SR9c.

this attitude is exactly why the laws in states like mass are what they are. do as youre told peasant.