True "value" of a pre-ban mags

[StevieP]

I just know that if/when I buy property outside the PRM, I'm gonna karma my 20-round pre-ban AR mags to four lucky winners.

Once I get out of here, I'll go all modern polymer mags. Driving to the Inner Banks next week to check out the area.

 

[surgetek]

I just know that if/when I buy property outside the PRM, I'm gonna karma my 20-round pre-ban AR mags to four lucky winners.

Once I get out of here, I'll go all modern polymer mags. Driving to the Inner Banks next week to check out the area.

In

 

[enbloc]

Option #1)
Massachusetts is not an island. Travel, shop, buy! You'll find good deals in neighboring states if your life is worth the legwork.

Option # 2)
2 x $60 = $120 (2 preban 15-round G19 mags for a total of 30 rounds)
vs.
3 x $20 = $60 (3 new factory 10-round G19 mags for a total of 30 rounds)

Save $60 bucks for brand new reliable factory-fresh mags, not someone's old hand-me-downs.
and, 3 mags means you have a mechanical backup for your backup...

 

[Al-Jim19]

Prebans are important to me, But not for over 100$ like I've seen for Glock magazines. I've bought a couple prebans, 75 for a G17 and 100$ for a 33rd. I also have a couple G19 15s I've gotten through other means. For prebans I'm good with that many. AR mags are way easier to find, I've had a bunch delivered to my door for about $20 each. Steeper than some of you are saying you get them for but I'm comfortable with that price.

Id buy more glocks but I've got what I need. After that 10rd mags work just fine.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

My friend's cousin's girlfriend's dad is a Navy SEAL and he told me that there's no such thing as a pre-ban or otherwise legal-in-MA Glock mag over ten rounds. Is that true?

The fact that he is a SEAL has no bearing whatsoever on his knowledge (or in this case, lack thereof) of MA gun laws and is a misplaced implicit argument based on a non-authortive non-authority.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

There is no law whatsoever against manufacturing new AR15 magazines with old date stamps on them, or even just AR15 mag baseplates with old dates. This does not make them MA legal, however, the creation of such devices in free states is not a problem, and the creation of mis-dated baseplates in MA would not be a crime (until the AG invents a new law ex-rectus, of course). I'm surprised nobody has done this.

The well known existence of such mags would put the state in the position of arguing "a post ban date is proof the mag is post ban, but a pre ban date is not proof a mag is pre ban".

 

[bigblue]

The fact that he is a SEAL has no bearing whatsoever on his knowledge (or in this case, lack thereof) of MA gun laws and is a misplaced implicit argument based on a non-authortive non-authority.

Duck.

 

[kalash]

The fact that he is a SEAL has no bearing whatsoever on his knowledge (or in this case, lack thereof) of MA gun laws and is a misplaced implicit argument based on a non-authortive non-authority.

You must be fun at parties.

 

[drgrant]

Duck.

Lol you guys missed his nerdier joke built into the response.

 

[bigblue]

The "non-authortive non-authority"?

 

[TLB]

There is no law whatsoever against manufacturing new AR15 magazines with old date stamps on them, or even just AR15 mag baseplates with old dates. This does not make them MA legal, however, the creation of such devices in free states is not a problem, and the creation of mis-dated baseplates in MA would not be a crime (until the AG invents a new law ex-rectus, of course). I'm surprised nobody has done this.

The well known existence of such mags would put the state in the position of arguing "a post ban date is proof the mag is post ban, but a pre ban date is not proof a mag is pre ban".

Funny you mention this. I have thought about this before.

 

[bigblue]

Carbon. Dating.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The "non-authortive non-authority"?

Associated with the department of redundancy department department.

 

[Amputee Marksman]

No one needs more than two rounds.

640K ought to be enough for anybody.

 

[Len-2A Training]

640K ought to be enough for anybody.

I see what you did there!

You are dating yourself!

Is that 640K aggregate or only in a single caliber.

 

[Glockster30]

If you really know how simple it is to determine pre-ban from post-ban Glock mags, please share your knowledge with Fred in Glock USA tech support, plus Carlos Guevara, Glock-US Chief Counsel and then let Patrick Sweeney know also (author of the Glock books), as they all admit that it really isn't that simple and that they can't definitively tell (other than the extra cut-outs added in the mid-2000s).

I know that there are tons of ex-spurts out there that make all sorts of definitive claims on Glock mags, but I also know that they are wrong.

In general, someone that knows Glock mags can make a determination with about 95-98% accuracy as to whether it's post or pre-ban. The problem arises from what we have all stated before - proving it in a court of law if you get jammed up and how much it's going to cost whether you win or lose.

They can't explain shit like the 33 round U-notch with the LE markings on it, etc. Or the 12 round Glock 26 mag I saw with the caliber marking in the middle position. etc. ("WAT THE 26 is POST BAN!!!! BWEAH!" well if its post ban, then why isn't the caliber marking at the top of the mag? oh wait, because this magazine ideology stuff is inconsistent, who'd have thunk it!")

It would be that Glock would start making new mags using old molds that look like U notch and mid marked square notch. Just to take a shit in everyone's
cheerios.

-Mike

As you noted, there are exceptions to just about everything in life.

However, I love your idea of Glock going back to low numbered u-notch and square notch mags with no cutouts. That would be a provide for a big clusterf**k and a marketing coup for Glock!

 

[Len-2A Training]

It IS easy enough to identify magazines that are definitely preban and those that are definitely post ban.
You insist on referring to "a guy who talked to a guy who wrote a book that has since been edited" that claims some "high number slant notch without LE markings" mags may or may not have entered circulation prior to the ban and Glock says they don't f'n know either way. This is a negative that can't be proven and thus muddies the waters. These "high number slant notch without LE markings" magazines happen to be at the very most questionable as to date of mfg. However, that does not change the fact that certain mags are easily identifiable as having been produced prior to the ban and some as after. What happened during and immediately before/after with production both domestic and international is the only question. Most people DGAF. Most LEO have no clue either way.

Anyways... Prices: $0.02

Sorry, you are talking thru your hat with your assumptions.

- I personally spoke with both Carlos Guevera (Glock-US Chief Counsel) and Fred (Glock-US lead tech) and received that info. Carlos told me that two MA DAs had contacted him for verification of post-ban status and he told them "he couldn't definitively tell". Fred said he asked Glock-Austria for a breakdown of when design changes happened to the mags and their response to him was "those are your silly laws, don't bother us about them" and refused to provide that info.

- When I teach the MA Gun Law Seminar I let the students read the page in Pat Sweeney's book for themselves about ID'g mags. I also make a point to tell them that the book I have and copied the page from was written in 2003, during the Fed Ban . . . so there were NO POST-BAN mags created when this was written!!!! Pat Sweeney isn't "just some author", he's a serious competitive shooter and expert in a lot of handguns. He's a fellow member of a closed Email list of rather exclusive folks (mostly trainers, some of whom are internationally known and respected).

- I also tell them the Matt Medeiros story (manager of AFS) who corroborated Pat Sweeney's revelation about high caliber marked pre-ban mags . . . as Matt told me that the G21 he bought DURING the Fed ban came with same.

Yes, you need to spend real money to defend yourself. You need an expert witness with info/evidence such as above to throw so much doubt on the DA/LE "ex-spurt" claiming otherwise to get an acquittal. Not a cake-walk, but very possible.

 

[pupchow]

After seeing many WTS/WTB posts for pre and post ban mags for very varying range of values I wanted to create a post so people can post their discuss the "value" of pre/post pan mags.

For example glock mags:
10 rounders
MSRP: $20, Normally goes for 20

15/17 rounders
MSRP $25, On here goes for 40-70

~30 rounders
MSRP $30, on here does for 100-140

There's a MA-centric facb00k page, where certain sellers are doling out one U-notch at a time, and people pounce on them at $100+ a pop. Repeatedly. No skin in that game.

 

[stanley11b]

no shame in that game people want what they want

There's a MA-centric facb00k page, where certain sellers are doling out one U-notch at a time, and people pounce on them at $100+ a pop. Repeatedly. No skin in that game.

 

[drgrant]

no shame in that game people want what they want

I don't blame the sellers at all, but the people that buy that stuff, most of them are obviously doing some serious window licking.

The most I ever paid for a magazine was $60. And that's because the magazine was actually rare, I paid $60 ea for two hard chromed HK P7M8 magazines.... and anyone who has owned a P7 knows the mags don't grow on trees and are legitimately scarce and expensive, none of this fluffy stuff.

-Mike

 

[kalash]

Sorry, you are talking thru your hat with your assumptions.

- I personally spoke with both Carlos Guevera (Glock-US Chief Counsel) and Fred (Glock-US lead tech) and received that info. Carlos told me that two MA DAs had contacted him for verification of post-ban status and he told them "he couldn't definitively tell". Fred said he asked Glock-Austria for a breakdown of when design changes happened to the mags and their response to him was "those are your silly laws, don't bother us about them" and refused to provide that info.

- When I teach the MA Gun Law Seminar I let the students read the page in Pat Sweeney's book for themselves about ID'g mags. I also make a point to tell them that the book I have and copied the page from was written in 2003, during the Fed Ban . . . so there were NO POST-BAN mags created when this was written!!!! Pat Sweeney isn't "just some author", he's a serious competitive shooter and expert in a lot of handguns. He's a fellow member of a closed Email list of rather exclusive folks (mostly trainers, some of whom are internationally known and respected).

- I also tell them the Matt Medeiros story (manager of AFS) who corroborated Pat Sweeney's revelation about high caliber marked pre-ban mags . . . as Matt told me that the G21 he bought DURING the Fed ban came with same.

Yes, you need to spend real money to defend yourself. You need an expert witness with info/evidence such as above to throw so much doubt on the DA/LE "ex-spurt" claiming otherwise to get an acquittal. Not a cake-walk, but very possible.

Would anyone from this Skull and Bones email list testify in court as an expert witness? Also, can Carlos and Fred put all that in writing?

 

[MichaelJames1971]

Would anyone from this Skull and Bones email list testify in court as an expert witness? Also, can Carlos and Fred put all that in writing?

Oh, you mean you want the REAL experts to be held accountable for their flippant attitudes toward the law, and stand-before Judge and Jury, hand on the bible and give testimony? Or even put it in-writing? Not with Law Enforcement Contract-money hanging over their heads.....their 'expert opinion' is worth the air its delivered-on.

 

[drgrant]

Oh, you mean you want the REAL experts to be held accountable for their flippant attitudes toward the law, and stand-before Judge and Jury, hand on the bible and give testimony? Or even put it in-writing? Not with Law Enforcement Contract-money hanging over their heads.....their 'expert opinion' is worth the air its delivered-on.

It's still not that hard for a savvy attorney to introduce doubt about the provenance of a magazine, that's what people are forgetting. The state is compelled to prove that the magazine is illegal. Typically this means another "ex spurt" from their side, usually an anti gun LEO gets thrown on the stand as a witness. Any good attorney could probably rip that guy to shreds. Problem is someone with a shit/low buck attorney, that isn't going to happen, hell they probably won't even go to trial and work out a (likely disabling) plea deal, with or without the mag charges. (chances are if you're facing the system, you're not just there because of magazines. )

The attitudes are "flippant" because MA's rendition of the AWB, from a legal standpoint is a gigantic piece of shit. When the feds had it, at least they had a provisio which basically 100% settled this issue from a standard of evidence standpoint. MA bullshit law doesn't incorporate that chunk of US code which basically said "Any claim of a pre ban magazine is to be taken at face value in the eyes of the law unless the magazine in question is marked as indicated in the law". (not the exact wording, but the meaning is identical.).

-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

Would anyone from this Skull and Bones email list testify in court as an expert witness? Also, can Carlos and Fred put all that in writing?

Yes I would and yes I have. Yes, I think that evidence from Carlos and Fred could be had and there are two ways to do that legally . . . request it (I wouldn't be bashful about doing that if hired to testify) or under Subpoena for Deposition (done in GA by a certified person - I serve these sort of Subpoenas from out of state all the time).

And I have shredded the testimony of a MSP Ballistics ex-spurt with 25 yrs on the job who claimed that a Norinco SKS (unmodified) and the clips to feed the internal mag both held 11 rds in the mag/clip respectively. The judge ruled in favor of my testimony.

Many here blow smoke, but I'm more than willing to walk the talk.

 

[drgrant]

Yes I would and yes I have. Yes, I think that evidence from Carlos and Fred could be had and there are two ways to do that legally . . . request it (I wouldn't be bashful about doing that if hired to testify) or under Subpoena for Deposition (done in GA by a certified person - I serve these sort of Subpoenas from out of state all the time).

And I have shredded the testimony of a MSP Ballistics ex-spurt with 25 yrs on the job who claimed that a Norinco SKS (unmodified) and the clips to feed the internal mag both held 11 rds in the mag/clip respectively. The judge ruled in favor of my testimony.

Many here blow smoke, but I'm more than willing to walk the talk.

When Darius was still around he once told me he once had a case where the PD claimed that his client's Walther P22 was "Large Capacity" because it could hold a total of 11 rounds of ammunition. Needless to say that didn't hold up.

-Mike

 

[MichaelJames1971]

It's still not that hard for a savvy attorney to introduce doubt about the provenance of a magazine, that's what people are forgetting. The state is compelled to prove that the magazine is illegal. Typically this means another "ex spurt" from their side, usually an anti gun LEO gets thrown on the stand as a witness. Any good attorney could probably rip that guy to shreds. Problem is someone with a shit/low buck attorney, that isn't going to happen, hell they probably won't even go to trial and work out a (likely disabling) plea deal, with or without the mag charges. (chances are if you're facing the system, you're not just there because of magazines. )

The attitudes are "flippant" because MA's rendition of the AWB, from a legal standpoint is a gigantic piece of shit. When the feds had it, at least they had a provisio which basically 100% settled this issue from a standard of evidence standpoint. MA bullshit law doesn't incorporate that chunk of US code which basically said "Any claim of a pre ban magazine is to be taken at face value in the eyes of the law unless the magazine in question is marked as indicated in the law". (not the exact wording, but the meaning is identical.).

-Mike

I'm curious if we think the gun-buying LEO community wouldn't put pressure to-bear against Glock for testifying in-support of defendants during any such prosecution. My feeling is, they would to make sure they get convictions by reminding Glock how many service firearms they bought, and continue to buy....versus a fickle consumer market hamstrung by a third-party legal entity. When was the last time a 'big company' stood for principles/values versus profits? Oh, Glock is a NON-US company? Well, well.

 

[drgrant]

I'm curious if we think the gun-buying LEO community wouldn't put pressure to-bear against Glock for testifying in-support of defendants during any such prosecution. My feeling is, they would to make sure they get convictions by reminding Glock how many service firearms they bought, and continue to buy....versus a fickle consumer market hamstrung by a third-party legal entity. When was the last time a 'big company' stood for principles/values versus profits? Oh, Glock is a NON-US company? Well, well.

Glock wouldn't do it regardless, but they, quite simply, don't need to, the silence from Glock on the provenance of magazines is pretty deafening and thats pretty valuable by itself. Their position, as a company, on this issue, is actually VERY, pro consumer. They chose not to shit where they eat by, at least officially, by their counsel remaining silent. BTW, Glock makes most of their money from the "fickle consumer market", too.

-Mike

 

[mrmike7189]

Have any of you had issues with old magazines chambering rounds correctly?

There are replacement magazine springs for sale all the internet. brownells, midwayusa, gunsprings.com , glock sells mag springs for most $3
I have many pre ban mags that I replaced all the insides, springs,followers, and they are like brand new again!

 

[spt_1955]

Well, I'll need some clarification on this one.....What, exactly are the tenets of the existing 'ban'? I don't see any real evidence of a 'ban' - if I want high-capacity magazines, they're everywhere both in-state and out-of-state for every gun that interests me....? Do some mag purchasers just not have a car?

Here's the clarification :

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section131M

Minimun penalty $1,000 - 1 Year Maximum Penalty $10,000 - !0 years (did I forget to mention that you are now a felon and a prohibited person under federal law?)

Clear enough?

 

[Len-2A Training]

There are replacement magazine springs for sale all the internet. brownells, midwayusa, gunsprings.com , glock sells mag springs for most $3
I have many pre ban mags that I replaced all the insides, springs,followers, and they are like brand new again!

Yes, Glock gladly replaced all the springs, followers and baseplates on my Wife's G17 u-channel mags. No splits on the shells either and no caliber marking (proof that they were made before Glock even developed a second caliber gun). That should make them worth at least double what most are selling them for!