He tries to play of he's actually a gun owner and not a shill , but somehow seem to work giving control to the government in somewhere.
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'Tremendous increase' in number of Jews purchasing firearms in wake of Hamas attack
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Setting aside my comment in the original post that the live view component of the current bill wasn't something I supported....
There's a difference between holes in the baffles and ceiling downrange and holes behind the firing line. Are the former acceptable? No. But there is a difference.
Live fire training (again, not as framed in the bill and not debating whether it should or shouldn't be mandated here) gives the new shooter a much more immediate and visceral awareness of the consequences of bad muzzle discipline. Most people never having fired a gun have no sense of how loud, how much force, how sudden and, even on a P.O.S. Glock, the difference between how much the energy of the trigger pull differs from the energy let loose from muzzle. Until somebody fires their first shot, muzzle discipline is an abstract idea. I am sure you have seen the shock almost every first time shooter has, no matter how much they may like it, the first time it goes bang in their hand.
There's also a difference between the fleeting fraction-of-a-second-flag in a crowded gun store by the experienced and trained but imperfect (or just too cavalier, or it's just impossibly crowded store environment) and the 'fresh out of the classroom, never fired a shot (at best)' new person and the sustained pointing to 'look at the sights' or 'try the slide and trigger'. What I saw, and was creeped out by, was the latter.
Even saying this, muzzle discipline is a lesson that needs drilling and, there is a difference, no matter how much we might strive for otherwise, between muzzle discipline when we've confirmed clear for ourselves and shown clear to those around us in a store or while cleaning and where there is . Do you put a chamber flag in after you've checked clear before walking down range every time? Do you re-bag the rifle? Every R.O. I've ever known sees the careful folks who might one day have the third round of a mozambique hit the target carrier trolley vs the 'no training/awareness' folks who'll turn around and point behind the line "I think it's jammed" mid string and has their attention primarily focused on the latter.
But you know all this.
bigbravehog
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Giving this man child any space or attention is an affront to us all. Ignore this pos.
bigbravehog
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Not necessarily true. After the pulse nightclub shooting in 2016, I was asked by a gay cousin of mine who was terrified, to help him overcome his aversion/fear of firearms.
I took him to MFS and paid for an hour of personal firearms instruction.
Not only does he now carries constantly but he let me know he'll never vote Democrat again.
Mesatchornug
NES Member
We agree training is good. You didn't answer my first question. I'll add it again...
Why should the government be empowered to imprison or kill people if they don't seek out training to the level that said same government defines?
Also, I've introduced, at this point, hundreds of new shooters. I have not seen any sudden fear at the awesome power of the firearm from most of them. Franky, exceptionally few behaved that way. For most who did, it was more because they jumped in cartridge faster than they were ready than due to any "come to Jesus" moment.
And more than one of those holes in the ceiling is vertical. That's not using the sights wrong...
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Mesatchornug
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"Why do you need to assume my gender and tell me how I should perform it? Such toxic gatekeeping."
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So is this a instance where I put black and brown people on a pedestal?
Live fire training disproportionately affects black and brown people. If they can't even find a DMV to get a state ID to vote, how can they get to a state police barracks for live fire training?
The answer to your question is not so clear cut either way. On the one hand, it's a right, not a 'right if...'
On the other, it's a right, that when exercised incompetently, can put serious holes in the rights of somebody else.
To pretend things are completely black and white is to ignore the realities of life. Individual freedom is the only reasonable starting point but the saying "Your right to throw punches as you please ends at my face." also applies.
Re: holes in the ceiling, I guess I'm lucky, neither of my clubs and none of the half dozen ranges I've been to seem to have had a meaningful number of that level of screw up. There have, of course been some horrific things at all of them, only some of which I know of but it's not been common at all.
As to the new shooters surprised thing. You've definitely trained many more folks than me. I am not an instructor. I'm 'the friend that teaches you to shoot and helps you find an instructor' at most so I definitely defer to your broader sample size but the 'surprise and reckoning' I described has absolutely been my experience with those few who I gave their first crack at it.
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Giving you the benefit of the doubt you're seriously asking none of your prior posts have shown cause for....
Poverty and gatekeeping disproportionately affects black and brown people through no fault of their own and does make that requirement inequitable which is one of the (many) problems with the requirement as written in the bill. Making that argument against it, that no other explicitly enumerated right requires the person exercising it spend money, and insisting any such legal requirement must also involve infrastructure to ensure equal access sure would be a valid strategy opposing the bill before it passes and in court after.
Mesatchornug
NES Member
Yes. Your right ends when you hurt an innocent.
That is, after you hurt someone - not before - you have committed a crime. And for that we punish you appropriately.
Right.
So why should your right to throw that punch hinge on having mandatorily taken a class that included time on a heavy bag? Why should we be able to imprison you if you try it without such austere guidance?
One is a meaningful number. Ours has had two. We also have thousands of members and host open action shooting practices weekly.
Accidents happen, even with "highly trained" individuals. Which is my point.
With all due respect, I'm willing to guess we're drawing students from similar pools. That tells me you might want to revisit the way you introduce them to the activity if it's happening frequently.
I'm really not drawing students. I mean, sure some day, I might pursue a trainer cert but no time, at all, now. It's possible that, because I'm generally pretty close to the folks who do 'first time' with me that they're more forthcoming about their more personal reactions. It could also be random variation.
It's a lot harder to hit me in the next room, or house over, when you throw an untrained punch.
And yes, one is too many.
I have only ever had one 'AD' and it was down range and actually on target doing an inadvertent double tap in a 'shoot and move' training class I was taking pretty early on in my more structured (but by no means 'ever planning to compete seriously') pistol training efforts. Not 'took two when the drill called for one' but a true, hung on the break too much 'holy f***, that wasn't my plan' second pop. . Nobody but me had any idea how A that D was at the time but it was very sobering for me.
Mesatchornug
NES Member
You do yourself a disservice by appealing to false authority. Certifications don't make you a teacher; teaching does.
Any time you remind your neighbor to watch their muzzle direction, you're teaching. Any time you help your neighbor troubleshoot their new pistol, you're teaching.
Any time you introduce a new shooter, they're definitionally your student.
Half of my license students were reasonably close friends. I've taken half that group to the range for their first shots.
I can think of two shooters whose initial looked to include discomfort.
Theoretically? Sure. Probabilistically? Doubtful And you know why.
Yes, it's an imperfect analogy. Want me to do one with lamp oil?
Lovely. We have a thread now for ND stories. This seems like a great addition.
Back to the point...
Did live fire practice prevent your negligent discharge? Is that practice what taught you to take your muzzle discipline seriously? How much said practice had you had at that time? Is that the new proposed minimum training people should have before they're allowed to perform their enumerated rights? Which other rights should we similarly constrain?
Why should the government be empowered to imprison and kill people who don't follow its own proscribed educational path before their practice of an enumerated right?
bigbravehog
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When it comes to certification I'm mostly I'm considering liability insurance... and the ability to be less skin with who I'll risk teaching anything with loaded firearms...but yes...
No explanation for our different experiences other than, we've each had them.
"Why should the government be empowered to imprison and kill people who don't follow its own proscribed educational path before their practice of an enumerated right?"
I think you're sort of making a reductio ad absurdum argument here. You're not wrong when it comes to other rights, like free speech not having a prerequisite for a clue (as we see all too often), the right to petition etc. etc. but I think you're ignoring the pragmatic realities that, in completely untrained hands firearms are more likely to lead to a few too many holes in other people's rights in a way not common to the other amendments. I'm not saying it's an easy question to resolve (for reasons discussed elsewhere) just that it's not as simple as the libertarian disdain for the government's claim of right to do violence to enforce law being the correct position to win the day. It's not a question with a simple answer in either direction and I don't claim a good answer, or more importantly, have any good ideas for a way to equitably define live fire training requirements in a way that should be enshrined in law.
Mesatchornug
NES Member
Not at all.
The government's only power comes from its monopoly on coercive violence. If rights are by principle protected from interference by the government, how can it be a right if we permit them to imprison and kill people for not adhering to their unprincipled edges?
So it's a right of the second-class to you, because it's scary.
Got it.
So the pen may be mightier than the sword, but not than the pistol. Cool beans.
I'm afraid I'm unconvinced that your fears should constrain the rights of the "poor, huddled masses" to keep themselves free.
Sure it is. Either we protect rights or we don't. Only one option is fundamentally principled.
You know how Solomon was never actually going to split the baby, right?
MaverickNH
NES Member
Firearms are not a major cause of accidental death or injury. You probably have a lower chance of death or injury at a gun range than getting to/from the gun range.
Fox's Yingst: What Hamas terrorist told Israeli interrogators, what he did to victims 'too graphic' for TV
Fox's Yingst: What Hamas terrorist told Israeli interrogators, what he did to victims 'too graphic' for TV
Fox News foreign correspondent Trey Yingst reported on the harrowing exchange between an Israeli interrogator and a Hamas terrorist arrested outside a kibbutz near the Gaza border.
www.foxnews.com
It's too graphic but I have the whole interview here:
View: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1702373223594481
They gang raped babies before killing them.
Black slaves did this to White babies, also...
Nat Turner's slave rebellion - Wikipedia
A Black filmmaker tried to make a movie about this. He was cancelled though - for raping a young White girl, no less.
God help you dads out there who are trying to raise White girls in this day and age. You are powerless to prevent this.
The enemy is inside the gates.
I hear Telegram has baby rape videos.
Child Predator Poacher Calls On Governments To Step Up And Destroy Pedophile Rings
Who would argue against more tax money being spent on catching pedos?
www.infowars.com
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Nothing like some racism through low expectations.
Varmint
NES Member
You don’t want to carry a gun in a NYC subway cause there’s so much poop on the floor you might slip and have an accidental discharge.
It's always amusing to watch the mental gymnastics required to defend the idea that some bureaucrat with a polisci degree, who's never even seen a gun, should have the power to decide what amount of training is sufficient and then threaten to lock people in cages if they don't meet that arbitrary threshold.
Mesatchornug
NES Member
Or worse - the same colonel of the state police who restricts or refuses to issue LTCs...
[edit - typo]
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pastera
NES Member
A training class won't fix bad handling - that takes practice.
Years ago firearms handling was learned informally growing up as firearms were more of a household item instead of being seen as more of a taboo than pornography.
Oh they are easily "convertible", I mean who doesn't want to learn to better protect themselves and their family?
They are still going to vote Dem though.
Greater good and all that shit.
