Transfer wait times?

[teamRR]

Getting fingerprinted is no big deal, except in those rare occasions when it is:

Ie that pistol you sold a guy 25 years ago, who killed someone with it and left it the scene - you didn't know they have been looking for "you" until you send your prints in.

A zillion obscure scenarios like this exist, completely unlikely sure, tin foil hat shit, but rest assured the first thing they do with your prints is try and tie you too any other records they've got. And occasionally there is even a close match of someone else's prints, ie Joe Smith is now suddenly sex offender John Ilikemyoung.

That was the legal advice I was given anyway.

Very similar to being an honest innocent person when a cop asks you where you were last night - safest bet is to give them nothing to go on, even if you were serving food at the local homeless shelter, you don't know what they are upto or what they will do with the information: for all you know they are investigating a dead pedestrian who was found on your normal route there and the same vehicle description was involved.

Hey if we all have to send our prints in to own a gun then there will be no alternative, but until then, safest bet is avoid it.

 

[Qwikdraw45]

Getting fingerprinted is no big deal, except in those rare occasions when it is:

Ie that pistol you sold a guy 25 years ago, who killed someone with it and left it the scene - you didn't know they have been looking for "you" until you send your prints in.

A zillion obscure scenarios like this exist, completely unlikely sure, tin foil hat shit, but rest assured the first thing they do with your prints is try and tie you too any other records they've got. And occasionally there is even a close match of someone else's prints, ie Joe Smith is now suddenly sex offender John Ilikemyoung.

That was the legal advice I was given anyway.

Very similar to being an honest innocent person when a cop asks you where you were last night - safest bet is to give them nothing to go on, even if you were serving food at the local homeless shelter, you don't know what they are upto or what they will do with the information: for all you know they are investigating a dead pedestrian who was found on your normal route there and the same vehicle description was involved.

Hey if we all have to send our prints in to own a gun then there will be no alternative, but until then, safest bet is avoid it.

Funny you use that as an example. That was why they called. (not for a kiling, but they found one used in a crime). Besides, they run my prints once a year, anyway, for a MA LTC and each time I apply for a new job. One more reason I like the enhanced permit. You walk in, present it, and walk out. No call in check. At least it would be less embarrassing for them to show up at home if they found something on prints rather than having some dealer tell you "You're delayed" when there should be no reason at all (no convictions for anything).

ETA: That's why you also want a receipt/bill of sale and proof that you sold it to someone else. I'm not doing time for someone else!

 

[42!]

Getting fingerprinted is no big deal, except in those rare occasions when it is:

Ie that pistol you sold a guy 25 years ago, who killed someone with it and left it the scene - you didn't know they have been looking for "you" until you send your prints in.

A zillion obscure scenarios like this exist, completely unlikely sure, tin foil hat shit, but rest assured the first thing they do with your prints is try and tie you too any other records they've got. And occasionally there is even a close match of someone else's prints, ie Joe Smith is now suddenly sex offender John Ilikemyoung.

That was the legal advice I was given anyway.

Very similar to being an honest innocent person when a cop asks you where you were last night - safest bet is to give them nothing to go on, even if you were serving food at the local homeless shelter, you don't know what they are upto or what they will do with the information: for all you know they are investigating a dead pedestrian who was found on your normal route there and the same vehicle description was involved.

Hey if we all have to send our prints in to own a gun then there will be no alternative, but until then, safest bet is avoid it.

Wow, I've been pretty well F'd over by the system in MA, but I'm still not so heavily invested in tinfoil. Just relax, I'll drop the whole thing.

 

[knoxy]

I always get a delay, even before this bullshit.

Some will suggest getting a UPIN, but that's another 12 month wait and not a guarantee of no delay.

No delays on private sales.

 

[highlander]

Thinking of going to KTP for a rifle if it's in stock,anyone know of any problems being a Ma resident and buying out of state.

 

[42!]

Thinking of going to KTP for a rifle if it's in stock,anyone know of any problems being a Ma resident and buying out of state.

It has to be legal for you to own in your home state. And you have to do an eFA10. Otherwise no issue.

 

[highlander]

Was more concerned about the NICS check than anything else. All ready knew about EFA 10.

 

[42!]

Was more concerned about the NICS check than anything else. All ready knew about EFA 10.

thats the same in either state

 

[Qwikdraw45]

Update: After the one in March (24 hours) I changed to a different model. That took 9 days (April). This month I changed again, and it took 5 days. NH really needs to get rid of their HG background check system (yeah, yeah, I know. I could just stop switching guns every month like some people switch tampons.)

 

[Mark from MA]

Thinking of going to KTP for a rifle if it's in stock,anyone know of any problems being a Ma resident and buying out of state.

I bought a CZ Sharptail shotgun up there last week and it took about 15 mins in line, then 15 minutes background check. Done.

They dont do Mircs so you fo FA-10 when you get home

 

[Broc]

Getting fingerprinted is no big deal, except in those rare occasions when it is:

Ie that pistol you sold a guy 25 years ago, who killed someone with it and left it the scene - you didn't know they have been looking for "you" until you send your prints in.

A zillion obscure scenarios like this exist, completely unlikely sure, tin foil hat shit, but rest assured the first thing they do with your prints is try and tie you too any other records they've got. And occasionally there is even a close match of someone else's prints, ie Joe Smith is now suddenly sex offender John Ilikemyoung.

That was the legal advice I was given anyway.

Very similar to being an honest innocent person when a cop asks you where you were last night - safest bet is to give them nothing to go on, even if you were serving food at the local homeless shelter, you don't know what they are upto or what they will do with the information: for all you know they are investigating a dead pedestrian who was found on your normal route there and the same vehicle description was involved.

Hey if we all have to send our prints in to own a gun then there will be no alternative, but until then, safest bet is avoid it.

So, you are saying your fingerprints are still on the gun found at the murder scene?

The only issue I see is with how bad the States keep records. I wouldnt be surprised if you sell a handgun to someone in MA, that handgun is used in a crime 2 years later and the State still shows you as the owner. And that has nothing to do with fingerprints.

I agree that giving your fingerprints is not a good idea, but I'm not worried about my fingerprints being on a gun found at a murder scene.

 

[dcmdon]

The first sentence of the original post is wrong.

"It is quite well known the fed process is terrible."

Its not terrible. Its entirely on line and usually provides a response in seconds.

The problems arise when states choose to be the point of contact and entry into the fed NICS database.

Further, the NICS database is rarely down. Unlike most state systems.

In CT you must actually call the DESPP. So if the people who answer the phone don't come in because of snow or something, then you can't buy or sell a gun.

Permanent Brady State Lists | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

States in which the FBI Conducts NICS Checks for All Firearms Transactions Alabama Alaska American Samoa Arizona Arkansas Delaware D.C. Georgia Idaho Indiana Iowa Kansas Kentucky Louisiana Maine Massachusetts Michigan Minnesota Mississippi Missouri Montana New Mexico North Dakota N.

www.atf.gov

 

[teamRR]

The first sentence of the original post is wrong.

"It is quite well known the fed process is terrible."

Its not terrible. Its entirely on line and usually provides a response in seconds.

The problems arise when states choose to be the point of contact and entry into the fed NICS database.

Further, the NICS database is rarely down. Unlike most state systems.

In CT you must actually call the DESPP. So if the people who answer the phone don't come in because of snow or something, then you can't buy or sell a gun.

Permanent Brady State Lists | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

States in which the FBI Conducts NICS Checks for All Firearms Transactions Alabama Alaska American Samoa Arizona Arkansas Delaware D.C. Georgia Idaho Indiana Iowa Kansas Kentucky Louisiana Maine Massachusetts Michigan Minnesota Mississippi Missouri Montana New Mexico North Dakota N.

www.atf.gov

This was a long series of long posts you took out of context.

I was speaking of the fed *appeals* process, ie what needs to happen if you get a false denial.

 

[teamRR]

So, you are saying your fingerprints are still on the gun found at the murder scene?

The only issue I see is with how bad the States keep records. I wouldnt be surprised if you sell a handgun to someone in MA, that handgun is used in a crime 2 years later and the State still shows you as the owner. And that has nothing to do with fingerprints.

I agree that giving your fingerprints is not a good idea, but I'm not worried about my fingerprints being on a gun found at a murder scene.

I'm not worried about that specifically either; was just an example of things that can go wrong that you never would suspect by providing your prints.

Another example might be an arrest from 25 years ago where the charge was dropped but no good records are easily available to show disposition. Because they mucked up data entry somehow it never came up until they matched your prints.

 

[42!]

I'm not worried about that specifically either; was just an example of things that can go wrong that you never would suspect by providing your prints.

Another example might be an arrest from 25 years ago where the charge was dropped but no good records are easily available to show disposition. Because they mucked up data entry somehow it never came up until they matched your prints.

If there is no record of a conviction, then it's not a conviction. The presumption is innocence. So no problem.

 

[teamRR]

If there is no record of a conviction, then it's not a conviction. The presumption is innocence. So no problem.

Haha there you are, I was just throwing one situation out there but no..

There is not always a presumption of innocence if the disposition is not known. That's a common reason for delays and false denials actually, an arrest record is there but the disposition isn't or isn't obvious. If they can't connect the dots and figure it out they may assume either the case is still open or that the disposition was prohibiting.

 

[drgrant]

I'm not worried about that specifically either; was just an example of things that can go wrong that you never would suspect by providing your prints.

Another example might be an arrest from 25 years ago where the charge was dropped but no good records are easily available to show disposition. Because they mucked up data entry somehow it never came up until they matched your prints.

I've never heard of this gnomish mysticism of someone "getting screwed because they provided fingerprints". What would they be referencing the prints off
off? Because they found your thumbprint on a guys neck from an ancient barfight? Not sure what you're getting at with this, absolutely none of it makes
any sense. I think whoever told you that stuff was probably blowing a column of smoke straight up your ass.

There are tons of clerical errors and other f***ery within NICS, but that's the usual failure modes that have nothing to do with fingerprints.

-Mike

 

[teamRR]

I've never heard of this gnomish mysticism of someone "getting screwed because they provided fingerprints". What would they be referencing the prints off
off? Because they found your thumbprint on a guys neck from an ancient barfight? Not sure what you're getting at with this, absolutely none of it makes
any sense. I think whoever told you that stuff was probably blowing a column of smoke straight up your ass.

There are tons of clerical errors and other f***ery within NICS, but that's the usual failure modes that have nothing to do with fingerprints.

-Mike

I hear you, but basically I was told from someone who has dealt with this stuff a bunch (and is paranoid) that basically when you send your prints in you open yourself up for a bunch more clerical errors that are even harder to correct..

This all came up because I said NH POC = good because they have a simple, fair, and expedient appeals process that allows one to see the person making an error front and center, versus the feds where it takes forever and you are communicating with an anonymous remote entity that requires additional red tape. I know you hate the NH POC, and I agree they aren't good all around, but the worse case scenario with their screw ups is something they do right.

 

[42!]

Haha there you are, I was just throwing one situation out there but no..

There is not always a presumption of innocence if the disposition is not known. That's a common reason for delays and false denials actually, an arrest record is there but the disposition isn't or isn't obvious. If they can't connect the dots and figure it out they may assume either the case is still open or that the disposition was prohibiting.

As usual you're just making things up to fit what you are saying. Or do you really have first hand, or verifiable information. Anything beyond anecdotal BS..... didn't think so.

 

[teamRR]

As usual you're just making things up to fit what you are saying. Or do you really have first hand, or verifiable information. Anything beyond anecdotal BS..... didn't think so.

And you have hoards of personal experience? No, you have blind faith that .gov will just do things fairly, plenty of info out there to the contrary but you ignore it.

Appeals: Feds - takes months to a year or more to correct an error, all done by mail, they have literally stopped processing appeals for periods of time before, some people have to spend tens of thousands to sue them to make it right.. NH, make and appointment go see them within 2 weeks to straighten it out, bring a lawyer if you want. These are facts.

I stated it'd be worth talking to an attorney who specializes in this stuff to get her .02, even has an email - easy enough but you didn't bother with that.

 

[drgrant]

The first sentence of the original post is wrong.

"It is quite well known the fed process is terrible."

Its not terrible. Its entirely on line and usually provides a response in seconds.

The federal appeals process is pretty f***ing terrible (takes forever, only works by mail, not allowed to talk to any humans at FBI about it, etc. )

I am honestly surprised that SAF et al haven't come up with a case over it yet. I am guessing they are slow but fast enough to get mooted while in process. A right delayed is a right denied.

However, I'm not really convinced that the NH NICS POC is going to correct anything other than state errors, which makes it of limited usefulness. Is the NH NICS POC going to go to bat for an NH citizen blocked in the system because of a flag that gets pulled up in one of the FBI systems from another state? I doubt it.

-Mike

 

[teamRR]

The federal appeals process is pretty f***ing terrible (takes forever, only works by mail, not allowed to talk to any humans at FBI about it, etc. )

I am honestly surprised that SAF et al haven't come up with a case over it yet. I am guessing they are slow but fast enough to get mooted while in process. A right delayed is a right denied.

However, I'm not really convinced that the NH NICS POC is going to correct anything other than state errors, which makes it of limited usefulness. Is the NH NICS POC going to go to bat for an NH citizen blocked in the system because of a flag that gets pulled up in one of the FBI systems from another state? I doubt it.

-Mike

Good question.. I think usually its not an error in record rather an error in interpretation, ie the record isn't actually prohibiting or mistaken identity. I believe NH POC would reverse an incorrect disposition for that sort of out of state thing in a reasonable manner, but that doesn't mean they can edit out of state records in NICs to prevent future mistakes (would be interesting to know the nitty gritty on what they do in NH, for instance if they maintain any information)...

Also importantly NH is going to let you know what exactly was wrong a lot faster, without sending fingerprints by mail and waiting.

As we know the feds do the same, it just can take forever. Like you said, usually upon lawsuit they reverse the decision and moot it is what I've read. A upin is a separate thing which is supposed to help fix that but they claim even after a successful appeal they can make the same mistakes again (seems so stupid they can't just add a note in their own database entry to prevent future mistakes).

 

[42!]

And you have hoards of personal experience? No, you have blind faith that .gov will just do things fairly, plenty of info out there to the contrary but you ignore it.

Appeals: Feds - takes months to a year or more to correct an error, all done by mail, they have literally stopped processing appeals for periods of time before, some people have to spend tens of thousands to sue them to make it right.. NH, make and appointment go see them within 2 weeks to straighten it out, bring a lawyer if you want. These are facts.

I stated it'd be worth talking to an attorney who specializes in this stuff to get her .02, even has an email - easy enough but you didn't bother with that.

Don't make assumptions. I've seen the systems used in MA first hand, and I work on the NH systems on a regular basis, so I do have first hand knowledge, YOU DON'T. You may know first hand of one problem, the rest is all made up.

And all your ranting is based on an identity issue, not a criminal record (covered in another thread), which could have been prevented outright if you just provided you social security # (If you think this is some super secret number you'd be wrong, and the gov already has it), it helps them connect the written name to you. You're all pissed off because there was a process layed out you didn't want to follow (understandable), but don't blame the process when you go into it trying to play games and it doesn't work for you.

 

[teamRR]

Don't make assumptions. I've seen the systems used in MA first hand, and I work on the NH systems on a regular basis, so I do have first hand knowledge, YOU DON'T. You may know first hand of one problem, the rest is all made up.

And all your ranting is based on an identity issue, not a criminal record (covered in another thread), which could have been prevented outright if you just provided you social security # (If you think this is some super secret number you'd be wrong, and the gov already has it), it helps them connect the written name to you. You're all pissed off because there was a process layed out you didn't want to follow (understandable), but don't blame the process when you go into it trying to play games and it doesn't work for you.

What do you mean by playing games? Hiring a lawyer is playing games?

Nothing is made up other than what I said were potential problems that can arise by providing fingerprints, which I clearly stated were such.

That issue being due to identity was your assumption, I remember you saying this a couple times here but it was just where you jumped. In my long delay I had provided my SSN, I always do (as you know I don't trust any of this and don't tempt fate)..

What do you mean "work on" the systems? Based on everything you stated you seemed to know little of how the NH POC appeals part works and you also made a bunch of assumptions about the fed appeals being reasonable - seems like you get that now...

If you have some inside knowledge of the system explain how someone can get a delay or deny via feds and gets a proceed via NH POC (have heard of vice versa too)? Same database, why do some people have problems with only one or the other?

 

[42!]

What do you mean by playing games? Hiring a lawyer is playing games?

Nothing is made up other than what I said were potential problems that can arise by providing fingerprints, which I clearly stated were such.

That issue being due to identity was your assumption, I remember you saying this a couple times here but it was just where you jumped. In my long delay I had provided my SSN, I always do (as you know I don't trust any of this and don't tempt fate)..

What do you mean "work on" the systems? Based on everything you stated you seemed to know little of how the NH POC appeals part works and you also made a bunch of assumptions about the fed appeals being reasonable - seems like you get that now...

If you have some inside knowledge of the system explain how someone can get a delay or deny via feds and gets a proceed via NH POC (have heard of vice versa too)? Same database, why do some people have problems with only one or the other?

Again, no specifics, just anecdotal "some people" And as I recall you waited a week before you had to call them, they just left you hanging, something that wouldn't happen with the fed. And they said Oh we fixed it after you PAID for a lawyer but never told you the issue. That's the same as saying "we F'd up". Fixing their own screw up isn't "good", when it was all their fault (that's why they didn't give you the reason). But go ahead and keep talking about how great they are for making you wait, and spending $$$, because someone there forgot about you. They pissed on you and told you it was raining, and then sold you an umbrella at a discount.

 

[teamRR]

Again, no specifics, just anecdotal "some people" And as I recall you waited a week before you had to call them, they just left you hanging, something that wouldn't happen with the fed. And they said Oh we fixed it after you PAID for a lawyer but never told you the issue. That's the same as saying "we F'd up". Fixing their own screw up isn't "good", when it was all their fault (that's why they didn't give you the reason). But go ahead and keep talking about how great they are for making you wait, and spending $$$, because someone there forgot about you. They pissed on you and told you it was raining, and then sold you an umbrella at a discount.

After so many posts you now claim you are a credible insider, so I ask a couple straight forward questions, and you shed no light on them but just keep picking at the NH system.

If that was the feds I would've had no option other than wait indefinitely or cancel the sale and try again - this FFL does not transfer upon default proceed.

Default proceed is up to the FFL and its fairly common to go beyond that deadline with the fed check, so some people definitely wait just the same (without the option to pay a little $$ for a lawyer to reach out or to make an appointment to see them etc).. 5 days I agree is too long but not exclusive to NH. The NH POC checks definitely take longer but even in the heat of the last panic buy my check took less than a day, feds were way backed up too.

No idea why you are so in love with federal background checks but if you look around a bit you will see they generate lots of screw ups too - difference is they hide behind bureaucracy while NH will face you.

I feel myself and others can always get a fair shake at home, nobody is having to sue NH like they do the feds over it and the NH government is a whole lot easier to navigate, but it would probably be a whole lot simpler if you had to. My preference would be do 100% of our background checks here.

 

[dcmdon]

The bottom line is that the electronic submission system is pretty much instantaneous and nearly always up. 7x24.

And if you get a delay, it automatically becomes a proceed after 3 business days.

You don't get that when you have a state POC who may not actually run your NICS check for weeks.

 

[teamRR]

The bottom line is that the electronic submission system is pretty much instantaneous and nearly always up. 7x24.

And if you get a delay, it automatically becomes a proceed after 3 business days.

You don't get that when you have a state POC who may not actually run your NICS check for weeks.

The electronic part is true for most people, others do always get a delay.

Keep in mind default proceed is at the FFLs discretion and some require an actual proceed (ie 72 hours is when the FFL may legally do so, it's not uncommon if they don't by their own policy).

Saying that lately it takes NH weeks to run NICs is not my experience, once it took 5 days as I mentioned, during the latest craze mine went through within a day, during a different craze I do remember a couple hours, but usually it takes < 10 minutes. I don't doubt there are examples but weeks is probably as unusual as when the feds take weeks to come back with an actual answer.

 

[dcmdon]

I don't know any FFLs who won't proceed after 3 days, absent some other factor that gives them pause. And having been an FFL I can tell you that having asked an ATF Inspector specifically about this, the guidance I received was not threatening in the least. (No, well its your respnsibility of something bad happens) The processes a FFL must follow are very clear. Follow the process and you are clean. Cut corners and you will have a problem.

I was not specifically talking about NH. After Sandy Hook Maryland had a 6 week delay to just RUN the NICS check. It happens. I wasn't specifically talking about NH.

 

[wildwest]

The last 3 I bought I've gotten delayed, including yesterday..never had an issue before and not been arrested or had even a speeding ticket since I got my LTC. Thinking someone has my name that has done wrong. I was thinking about the upin as well, I understand it takes a year or so. My question is do you have to do the fingerprints at the police station or can you do a kit and send them in yourself? With all the covid crap going on and PD's not taking many new applicants I can't imagine they would want to do prints for a upin.