The Next Self-Defense Law Scenario

MaverickNH

MaverickNH

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You are pulled over in your car with a flat. Just as you are letting the jack down, a car pulls up behind you and three guys get out carrying a tire iron, a bat and a knife. It's clear from their statements that they intend to beat/stab you, roll you down the hill into the weeds and take your car.

You are carrying concealed. Can you employ your firearm in self-defense, expecting a successful self-defense claim in court?

--- I said in a prior post that we were too short on scenarios where defense use of a firearm WAS justified, so here's my first example. But even here, there are limits to consider that are worth discussion.
 
At that very moment I doubt I would be worrying about what happens in court. I sure as hell would draw and if necessary fire. In the situation, as described, I would in fact be in fear of my life.
 
If they got within 15 or 20 feet, I would brandish my weapon and warn them. If they kept advancing, I would shoot to kill. A knife and a tire iron are definitely deadly weapons and their statements confirm their intent.
 
Chris said:
Nike Defense. If they follow, then I'm far more justified.
Click to expand...

I'm with Chris. Verbalize your apprehensions, make a retreat, see if they follow. Perhaps they were just trying to help change a stubborn tire, a bat to knock the wheel loose, a tire iron to help loosen the lugnuts and the knife to, well, whittle a wheel chock. At least that's what they'd say if you just drew down and shot one of them.
 
I would guesstimate that here you are being presented with deadly force - one guy has a knife, one a blunt object and the other a blunt object. Couple their advance, their weapons and what they say, and I think it would be reasonable here to believe they are going to kill you.

After drawing your gun and warning them to leave, if they still advance, I would let the hot lead fly.

Just make sure you kill them all so that no one can contradict your story. [thinking]
 
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MaverickNH said:
It's clear from their statements that they intend to beat/stab you, roll you down the hill into the weeds and take your car.
Click to expand...

To quote myself, you have no doubt that they intend your death or great bodily harm based on what they said.

If you think you are fast, you might run away. Down the road? Hmmm - they have a car. Down the hill into the weeds? Maybe if you are a trail runner and can run like a deer.

Would I let them progress from face-on at distance to a possible trangulation as I tried to run away? Bad tactic.
 
vellnueve said:
I drive a minivan. It's the ultimate theft repellant.
Click to expand...

IIRC there was a couple of guys getting into a rolling gunfight in murderpan or someplace like that in Boston, and one of them had a minivan. So even the "thug life" types like MilfMobiles. [laugh]
 
Yeah, but mine's in shit state. If they steal it, I'd probably be better off taking the insurance payments anyway.
 
Hand 'em the keys to the truck. 14 MPG they can keep it...

Only stipulation is that if the truck is found, I'm coming after them.

They want my wallet, I draw on 'em and tell them they can't have it, because my permit is in it and it's a stone-cast bitch getting a replacement...

[wink]
 
A good point, actually. If you shoot the biggest, meanest, closest and most threatening one first, will the other two back down? Can you keep them covered while you call the police on your cell phone? Is it now 2 on 1 as to who was the agressor?

Can you afford to down one man and wait to see what the other two do? Or does stopping the threat happen so fast that all three are downed before they can press the attack successfully or back down after the first shot is fired?
 
VTpro said:
"Dead man tells no tales.."
Click to expand...
But the forensics sure do, along with the 3 witnesses that you didn't see.

I am so freakin' tired of seeing this kind of line on gun forums. It does NOT help our image, besides the fact that it is just the sort of advice that can turn a lawful self defense incident into murder one. "I was just kidding" doesn't cut it, either. It makes us all look bad. Just stop it.
 
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I have two comments on the comments in this thread.
Someone said that they would shoot to kill them. This
is a foolish statement. You are not goinng to shoot to kill them.
You are shooting to stop the threat to your life and limb. Yes,
you recognize that shooting may cause a death. That is unfortuneate
but. you are shooting to stop the threat and stopping when the threat goes away

Someone else mentioned that they would draw and brandish their weapon when they got to 15 or 20 feet. Are you familiar with the Tueller Drill, named after Dennis Tueller.
After a bunch of testing, he found that a man 21 feet away could get to you within 1.5 seconds average. A experienced gun user can draw and fire one shot in about 1.5 seconds. Even a shooter with a drawn weapon, held at the ready, is doing real well to get one shot off in just under 1 second. As described, this is a very bad situation and at least one, if not all, of the guys will get you
The best answer is to draw and run to cover and only then deal with the situation, by shooting if necessary.
 
JimConway said:
I have two comments on the comments in this thread.
Someone said that they would shoot to kill them. This
is a foolish statement. You are not goinng to shoot to kill them.
You are shooting to stop the threat to your life and limb. Yes,
you recognize that shooting may cause a death. That is unfortuneate
but. you are shooting to stop the threat and stopping when the threat goes away

Someone else mentioned that they would draw and brandish their weapon when they got to 15 or 20 feet. Are you familiar with the Tueller Drill, named after Dennis Tueller.
After a bunch of testing, he found that a man 21 feet away could get to you within 1.5 seconds average. A experienced gun user can draw and fire one shot in about 1.5 seconds. Even a shooter with a drawn weapon, held at the ready, is doing real well to get one shot off in just under 1 second. As described, this is a very bad situation and at least one, if not all, of the guys will get you
The best answer is to draw and run to cover and only then deal with the situation, by shooting if necessary.
Click to expand...

Good to make these points (one echoing Scriver) as:

1. Good strategies and understanding of laws is useful to us.

2. How we state in a public forum how, when, why we would use guns in self-defense is important, as M1911 notes. Whackoos have plenty of other forums to spout their drivel.
 
Just imagine what would happen if the person that said he/she would shoot to kill, got into a gun fight and killed someone. How or could this type of comment be explained in a court of law? Just imagine how a jealous DA would jump for joy after reading the posts.

Those of you that are going with us to Front Sight with us, will get this point pounded into your heads
 
JimConway said:
Just imagine what would happen if the person that said he/she would shoot to kill, got into a gun fight and killed someone. How or could this type of comment be explained in a court of law? Just imagine how a jealous DA would jump for joy after reading the posts.
Click to expand...

+1. The hapless poster would have just helped to Nifong themselves.
 

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