The Marines are slowly saying goodbye to the M16 rifle

[M60]

Current Marines have been using ACOG scopes for a few years now, even in bootcamp and to qualify. Since they're using a ACOG anyway, it doesn't make much sense to run the longer barrel.

Rumor is even the CMP will be allowing optics on service rifles for the national matches next year. Proficiency with irons is becoming a lost art.

Geez. That's like kids in school not be able to add, subtract, multiply and divide because they all have electronics to handle such a mundane task. What will future troops do when electronic scopes fail in combat and they aren't proficient with iron sights because that training has been phased out much like bayonet training!

 

[jasons]

What will future troops do when electronic scopes fail in combat and they aren't proficient with iron sights because that training has been phased out much like bayonet training!

They'll probably die....

 

[PappyM3]

Geez. That's like kids in school not be able to add, subtract, multiply and divide because they all have electronics to handle such a mundane task. What will future troops do when electronic scopes fail in combat and they aren't proficient with iron sights because that training has been phased out much like bayonet training!

To be fair, I've seen ACOGs out-survive the M4s they were attached to during several IED blasts. Red dot sights are another story, but ACOGs are extremely robust.

But I do understand and agree with your whole sentiment.

 

[Artifact]

Got to a qual and see everyone with an M4 bitching.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[Artifact]

So that whole M1 carbine thing was just what, a joke?

Geez. That's like kids in school not be able to add, subtract, multiply and divide because they all have electronics to handle such a mundane task. What will future troops do when electronic scopes fail in combat and they aren't proficient with iron sights because that training has been phased out much like bayonet training!

Irons should be the primary learning curve and transition to optics., that's a given.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[Picton]

Geez. That's like kids in school not be able to add, subtract, multiply and divide because they all have electronics to handle such a mundane task. What will future troops do when electronic scopes fail in combat and they aren't proficient with iron sights because that training has been phased out much like bayonet training!

Exactly right. Get a roomful of modern high schoolers and give them a basic arithmetic problem; then step back and watch the fun. Same thing with future soldiers, only a lot less fun.

 

[ochmude]

What will future troops do when electronic scopes fail in combat and they aren't proficient with iron sights because that training has been phased out much like bayonet training!

The Marine Corps actually hasn't phased out bayonet training, at least not that I've heard of. It's still part of the tan belt MCMAP program.

 

[M60]

The Marine Corps actually hasn't phased out bayonet training, at least not that I've heard of. It's still part of the tan belt MCMAP program.

Yeah. I know that the Corps still believes in bayonet training, But a while back, someone on NES said that the Army has phased it out.

 

[Artifact]

Yeah. I know that the Corps still believes in bayonet training, But a while back, someone on NES said that the Army has phased it out.

Yes, Army has done away with it.

 

[mac1911]

Wow, that is very interesting, but makes sense now that optics are being made so reliable and durable these days. It's kind of like when I was in college taking CAD classes, it was required to take 2 semesters of manual board drafting! I still think it's not a bad thing to know how to draw prints mechanically, but certainly very few if any companies still employ people that don't use CAD. The reality is that even with a non functional optic, most people who can qualify with an optic should be able to at least hit minute of man with irons.

If there are irons on the rifle?
Ok so what does it take to qualify today in army or marines ? Do they shoot irons out to 500meters
What's the course of fire today? I never served so I have no clue other than what my dad told me.

 

[jasons]

If there are irons on the rifle?
Ok so what does it take to qualify today in army or marines ? Do they shoot irons out to 500meters
What's the course of fire today? I never served so I have no clue other than what my dad told me.

I've been out for a long time, but from what I understand Marines today shoot a five part qual course. The first part, "table 1," is basically the traditional 200 / 300 / 500 yard standing / kneeling / sitting / prone course similar to the one I shot in the 90's. (Only shot with an ACOG instead of irons.)

Tables 4-5 are more of a combat course with pop-ups and that sort of thing shot during daylight and night time.

All tables are shot using an ACOG.

The army does a much shorter daytime pop-up course only as far as I know. The army uses various optics depending on the unit.

 

[PappyM3]

The army does a much shorter daytime pop-up course only as far as I know. The army uses various optics depending on the unit.

Pretty much.

The Army has two types of rifle qualifications. Pop-up targets and the Alt-C, or alternate course. Both involve 40 bullets with 1 point per hit, and both involve 20 rounds in the prone supported position, 10 rounds in prone unsupported, and 10 rounds in kneeling.

1) Pop ups: This is on a range with known distance pop-up e-type silhouettes from 50 meters to 300 meters. There are a total of 40 times that targets pop up, 40 bullets, and one point per hit. The pop-ups are on timers and if you don't shoot in time, you miss your chance. There are also times when two targets will pop up at once and you must engage both before they drop. This qualification is the standard.

2) Alt-C: This is conducted on a 25 meter range when the 300m pop-up range is unavailable. It is usually conducted on the same range that one zeroes on. Due to being the exact same distance as the zero, the Soldiers don't need to worry about adjusting the elevation knob or accounting for the arc of the bullet. They also don't need to worry about wind for the 300m targets. Because of this, this qualification is a lot easier and I've seen many staff Officers conduct it instead of the pop-ups because they have trouble qualifying. I'll save that rant for another day. The Alt-C also has the 20 rounds prone-supported, 10 prone-unsupported, and 10 kneeling. However, since you're shooting at a static paper with silhouettes down-sampled for 25m, you get a certain amount of time for each position. For each position you must shoot at specific targets and the grader will add up the holes in each down-sampled target. If you need 4 holes in one target but have 5, you only get 4 points for that target.

It used to be that Soldiers had to score higher on the Alt-C in order to get Expert and Sharpshooter. But a few years ago they made them both the same. I think it was due to a promotion point system change. Anyway, here are the score breakdowns:

Expert: 36-40 hits
Sharpshooter: 30-35
Marksman: 23-29
Unqualified(F'in failure): 22 and below

It's REALLY hard to shoot less than Sharpshooter, in my opinion. Or, well, it should be for any Active Duty member. Reservists who only handle a rifle once a year on qual day, I can understand I guess. But still, anybody that shoots as a hobby should be getting Sharpshooter, AT LEAST.

There are also other qualifications for pistols and machine guns. And aside from the qualifications, many combat arms units conduct fairly regular nighttime and gas mask familiarization shoots. And I've seen a number also hold informal and unofficial CQM qualifications before doing shoot houses.

 

[Tundra02]

The Marine Corps actually hasn't phased out bayonet training, at least not that I've heard of. It's still part of the tan belt MCMAP program.

This my son is at MCRD Paris Island right now on week 7 and he has had bayonet trainning . Odd thing is in a letter he said he was issued a " Larue Tactical rifle scope " . Googled it but no luck .

 

[calsdad]

Wow, that is very interesting, but makes sense now that optics are being made so reliable and durable these days. It's kind of like when I was in college taking CAD classes, it was required to take 2 semesters of manual board drafting! I still think it's not a bad thing to know how to draw prints mechanically, but certainly very few if any companies still employ people that don't use CAD. The reality is that even with a non functional optic, most people who can qualify with an optic should be able to at least hit minute of man with irons.

Geezus - do companies still employ people drawing prints mechanically? I thought that was going away when I got out of high school in the early 80's with 4 years of drafting classes under my belt.

 

[jasons]

This my son is at MCRD Paris Island right now on week 7 and he has had bayonet trainning . Odd thing is in a letter he said he was issued a " Larue Tactical rifle scope " . Googled it but no luck .

They may be using Larue mounts.

 

[Artifact]

Pretty much.

The Army has two types of rifle qualifications. Pop-up targets and the Alt-C, or alternate course. Both involve 40 bullets with 1 point per hit, and both involve 20 rounds in the prone supported position, 10 rounds in prone unsupported, and 10 rounds in kneeling.

1) Pop ups: This is on a range with known distance pop-up e-type silhouettes from 50 meters to 300 meters. There are a total of 40 times that targets pop up, 40 bullets, and one point per hit. The pop-ups are on timers and if you don't shoot in time, you miss your chance. There are also times when two targets will pop up at once and you must engage both before they drop. This qualification is the standard.

2) Alt-C: This is conducted on a 25 meter range when the 300m pop-up range is unavailable. It is usually conducted on the same range that one zeroes on. Due to being the exact same distance as the zero, the Soldiers don't need to worry about adjusting the elevation knob or accounting for the arc of the bullet. They also don't need to worry about wind for the 300m targets. Because of this, this qualification is a lot easier and I've seen many staff Officers conduct it instead of the pop-ups because they have trouble qualifying. I'll save that rant for another day. The Alt-C also has the 20 rounds prone-supported, 10 prone-unsupported, and 10 kneeling. However, since you're shooting at a static paper with silhouettes down-sampled for 25m, you get a certain amount of time for each position. For each position you must shoot at specific targets and the grader will add up the holes in each down-sampled target. If you need 4 holes in one target but have 5, you only get 4 points for that target.

It used to be that Soldiers had to score higher on the Alt-C in order to get Expert and Sharpshooter. But a few years ago they made them both the same. I think it was due to a promotion point system change. Anyway, here are the score breakdowns:

Expert: 36-40 hits
Sharpshooter: 30-35
Marksman: 23-29
Unqualified(F'in failure): 22 and below

It's REALLY hard to shoot less than Sharpshooter, in my opinion. Or, well, it should be for any Active Duty member. Reservists who only handle a rifle once a year on qual day, I can understand I guess. But still, anybody that shoots as a hobby should be getting Sharpshooter, AT LEAST.

There are also other qualifications for pistols and machine guns. And aside from the qualifications, many combat arms units conduct fairly regular nighttime and gas mask familiarization shoots. And I've seen a number also hold informal and unofficial CQM qualifications before doing shoot houses.

We didn't have anyone that shot less than a 24 few months back. This doesn't matter but the "chosen" few had hard time qualifying with the M2A1.

 

[bigblue]

They may be using Larue mounts.

Likely a Leupold on a LaRue mount.

 

[standfast86]

This my son is at MCRD Paris Island right now on week 7 and he has had bayonet trainning . Odd thing is in a letter he said he was issued a " Larue Tactical rifle scope " . Googled it but no luck .

For some reason it made me happy that boots still have to write real letters home.

 

[Artifact]

This my son is at MCRD Paris Island right now on week 7 and he has had bayonet trainning . Odd thing is in a letter he said he was issued a " Larue Tactical rifle scope " . Googled it but no luck .

Larue rail/sights? Larue doesn't make scopes.

 

[M60]

I've been out for a long time, but from what I understand Marines today shoot a five part qual course. The first part, "table 1," is basically the traditional 200 / 300 / 500 yard standing / kneeling / sitting / prone course similar to the one I shot in the 90's. (Only shot with an ACOG instead of irons.)

Tables 4-5 are more of a combat course with pop-ups and that sort of thing shot during daylight and night time.

All tables are shot using an ACOG.

The army does a much shorter daytime pop-up course only as far as I know. The army uses various optics depending on the unit.

Heck, we used pop up targets back in late sixties, so that's nothing new. Then again, we used M14's and they called it part of the jungle training course. Do they still make the guys kill rattle snakes and take a bite before you can go on liberty?

 

[paulleve]

Yeah. I know that the Corps still believes in bayonet training, But a while back, someone on NES said that the Army has phased it out.

The one 4-hour block of bayonet training I received in Army basic back in the late 80's was enough to convince me I'd rather carry an extra 30 round magazine than thrust and parry with a determined adversary! [:^)

 

[Picton]

When I was at Basic in '94, the bayonet block of instruction was handled by a "drill cadet" on summer break from West Point. The training went... About as you'd expect.

We knew the drill sergeants hated the cadets, so the fact that they let them do the bayonet training told us all we needed to know about how important the drill sergeants thought the bayonet was.

 

[M60]

The one 4-hour block of bayonet training I received in Army basic back in the late 80's was enough to convince me I'd rather carry an extra 30 round magazine than thrust and parry with a determined adversary! [:^)

Each to his own, but I'll take the bayonet every time thanks. That extra mag wont do you much good when your M4 malfunctions, or after the extra 30 rounds are gone. The bayonet never needs to be reloaded.
See article in Book of the AR15, February 2011 issue. Re: May 21, 2004, 55 mile north of Basra,Iraq. 100 Mahdi militiamen attacked 20 British troops. Short on ammo, the British troops fixed bayonets and attacked across 600 feet of open ground toward the enemy trenches. They engaged in intense hand to hand fighting with the militiamen. Despite being outnumbered 5 to 1 and lacking ammunition The determined British army troops killed about 20 militiamen in the bayonet charge and between 28 and 35 overall. Only three British soldiers were injured in this action. This was the first time in 22 years that the British Army used bayonets in action. Similar incidents took place in 2008 and 2009 with British troops in Afghanistan. I'm quite sure that the Mahdi militiamen were considered, as you say, "determined adversaries", by the British Army troops and the bayonet saved their British bacon against 5 to 1 odds. If as you say, your 4 hours of bayonet training turned you off of using a bayonet against a determined adversary, I respectfully submit for your consideration that perhaps you should have considered further bayonet training.

 

[mark056]

Each to his own, but I'll take the bayonet every time thanks. That extra mag wont do you much good when your M4 malfunctions, or after the extra 30 rounds are gone. The bayonet never needs to be reloaded. See article in Book of the AR15, February 2011 issue. Re: May 21, 2004, 55 mile north of Basra,Iraq. 100 Mahdi militiamen attacked 20 British troops. Short on ammo, the British troops fixed bayonets and attacked across 600 feet of open ground toward the enemy trenches. They engaged in intense hand to hand fighting with the militiamen. Despite being outnumbered 5 to 1 and lacking ammunition The determined British army troops killed about 20 militiamen in the bayonet charge and between 28 and 35 overall. Only three British soldiers were injured in this action. This was the first time in 22 years that the British Army used bayonets in action. Similar incidents took place in 2008 and 2009 with British troops in Afghanistan. I'm quite sure that the Mahdi militiamen were considered, as you say, "determined adversaries", by the British Army troops and the bayonet saved their British bacon against 5 to 1 odds. If as you say, your 4 hours of bayonet training turned you off of using a bayonet against a determined adversary, I respectfully submit for your consideration that perhaps you should have considered further bayonet training.

I have always looked at the bayonet as something that's far better to have and not need than need than not have plus it does have a utilitarian function.

While I suspect that the M4 will prove to be quite handy and perhaps the best manifestation of a very mature AR technology and perhaps the best application of the PDW concept to date, which started with the M1 Carbine which somehow got over issued and was substituted as a Main Battle Rifle in far too many cases especially in Korea when it was in fact really an enhanced pistol substitute with .357 magnum performance (not bad for its intended role for CQB maybe out to 25 yards and yeah I know it was reported ineffective against Chinese wave attacks but again what distance ?) M4 has a lot more oomph is easily accessorized and 50 years of know how has made it reliable and this from a non M16 fan but an M16 consumer of long standing.

Where I have concerns is the classic thinking of always preparing for the last war. We have to face the fact that we just might have to engage a linear threat on a conventional battlefield where we might have to reach out and touch lol someone. Although the M4 can do it, the M14 can do it a whole lot better and it is for this reason that one hopes that out stockpiles of these rifles remain in strategic reserve. Certainly enough were pulled and refurbished for Afghanistan.

On the iron sights issue, anything electronic and mechanical can and will fail. Fundamental know still should be taught with iron sights. Again better to have them and not need them than need them and not have them. I use a GPS all the time but I still know how to read a map. I use word processing all the time but I can still read and write cursive (lots of kids can't today according to my English teacher neighbor) Having a plan B never hurts cuz Mr Murphy is ready to impose his law anytime, anyplace, anywhere.

 

[Skysoldier]

All this talk about weight is moot if you have to hump your own water.

 

[paulleve]

If as you say, your 4 hours of bayonet training turned you off of using a bayonet against a determined adversary, I respectfully submit for your consideration that perhaps you should have considered further bayonet training.

Uncle Sam was far more interested in developing my ability as a helicopter crew chief than in advancing my bayonet fighting skills!

 

[bigblue]

Uncle Sam was far more interested in developing my ability as a helicopter crew chief than in advancing my bayonet fighting skills!

That works great while you are in the air. We all know its completely implausible for a helo to go down.

 

[M60]

All this talk about weight is moot if you have to hump your own water.

LOL. So now you want us believe that was water in your canteens!

 

[M60]

Uncle Sam was far more interested in developing my ability as a helicopter crew chief than in advancing my bayonet fighting skills!

Sure sounds as though your Uncle Sam may not have had your best interests at heart. Amazing. Then again, you said that you made the decision to be anti bayonet. LOL.

 

[the_shootist]

Sure sounds as though your Uncle Sam may not have had your best interests at heart. Amazing. Then again, you said that you made the decision to be anti bayonet. LOL.

If you need to rely on your bayonet skills in battle, chances are your SOL anyway