The ATF Just Left My House...

[Admin]

The dog question is all for their database. They want to ensure the federal agents are prepared when they come back to take them.

 

[Garys]

Did you ask why he asked this?

It was a she, and no. Maybe she reads this forum and wanted to see how much hysteria she could cause with a silly question.

Of course, I never did mention the home made Claymores in the woods behind the house.

 

[Garys]

The dog question is all for their database. They want to ensure the federal agents are prepared when they come back to take them.

Why would they want to take my dogs? Are they evil assault dogs? Are they tapping into the town's dog license records? I wonder if the dog question will be on the new 4473?

Ironically, she was sitting at a chair next to my cat condo when she asked. Apparently, the ATF isn't worried about large, ferocious, tabby cats.

 

[Admin]

Gary they aren't coming back for the dogs.

 

[Plural of Mongoose]

I had an 01 FFl in the late 80s and gave it up when the renewal form asked for a diagram of my home, where the bedrooms were and if I had kids, where they slept, if I had any dogs, asked me to define entries and exits etc.
This was after shortly after Waco and when they shot Randy Weaver's wife while she held her baby.

Screw that.

I sent them all my papers, bound book etc.and canceled.

I have thought about a C&R but Im just not willing to make another pact with the devil.

The only alphabet soup I want anywhere near my home or family comes in a can.

 

[Plural of Mongoose]

double tapping the dog when they come to take the firearms is SOP.

Is this before or after they shoot the wife and gas the kids?

 

[ScottS]

And, for having my 03FFL, one of the deals is you're subject to suprise inspections. I find it very cool of him to call me ahead of time to work out a time to go over my books..

Incorrect. You're confusing 01 (or 02/06/07, etc) with 03 Collector. 18 USC 923 specifically covers this. As a Collector, they will always call to make an appointment for the inspection, as you as a collector, don't exactly have "hours."

As has been covered, you are specifically entitled to make an appointment and go to see them for the inspection, which is not exactly consistent with surprise, is it?

ATF: "SURPRISE!! We're here to inspect!"
You: "You know, now is not good. How about next Friday at 3:00? Your place?"
ATF: "Oh, OK. See you then. "

Not saying you should go to them; just saying it's not a "surprise" inspection.

In addition, I would never answer any non-FFL questions, i.e. dogs, rooms, etc.

 

[Another_David]

double tapping the dog when they come to take the firearms is SOP.

http://blackarmor.com/Vest/dog.htm

Now I just need a helmet.

 

[C-pher]

Incorrect. You're confusing 01 (or 02/06/07, etc) with 03 Collector. 18 USC 923 specifically covers this. As a Collector, they will always call to make an appointment for the inspection, as you as a collector, don't exactly have "hours."

As has been covered, you are specifically entitled to make an appointment and go to see them for the inspection, which is not exactly consistent with surprise, is it?

ATF: "SURPRISE!! We're here to inspect!"
You: "You know, now is not good. How about next Friday at 3:00? Your place?"
ATF: "Oh, OK. See you then. "

Not saying you should go to them; just saying it's not a "surprise" inspection.

In addition, I would never answer any non-FFL questions, i.e. dogs, rooms, etc.

I guess that you're right. But then I was never asked any of those questions once.

I was asked about my book. He never wrote down anything regarding my book. He just looked to make sure I had all the columns I needed...and that was all.

After that we pretty much just talked. He didn't care about the guns other than the serial numbers matched the book. He didn't even want to see my FFL or the copies I had for the people that I got them from.

The only thing that he wrote down was responces to questions that he asked regarding things like if I've sold any.... Am I selling any? Have I sold any? Do I understand rules regarding selling to non-FFL holders? Do I understand NFA and Ammo rules.

I was never asked anything personal. They didn't ask about dogs, the layout of my house, how many kids I have, where I keep them, etc...

I got none of that.

 

[Ninemil]

I find this disturbing and believe he's mixing up the rules for 01s with 03s. 01s MUST keep their personal collections separate from their business inventory. 03s are NOT Dealers and thus all our guns are our "personal collection", therefore there is no need to segregate C&Rs from modern guns or tag them. Some of us have more than 2 C&Rs and multiple safes might be nice to have but aren't always practical for money and space reasons. And I've always hated the idea of "segregation" anyhow!! As someone who believes in equality for all, I believe that all my guns are entitled to mingle with whatever they like at any time . . . the C&Rs should NOT have to sit in the back of the bus!

Well now I'm wondering whether I've misunderstood the process all along. I keep two sets of records one for C&R purchases and sales and another for FFL01 and FA-10 purchases and sales. Should I reconsider - or does it really matter?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Well now I'm wondering whether I've misunderstood the process all along. I keep two sets of records one for C&R purchases and sales and another for FFL01 and FA-10 purchases and sales. Should I reconsider - or does it really matter?

I sorta do the same. My second set of records includes EVERYTHING and I use that for insurance and personal purposes. Any agency that wants that info must show a warrant to get it or I would not show it to them.

My official BB meets the C&R FFL requirements and only logs C&Rs acquired/disposed of during the time I have been so licensed.

 

[Pilgrim]

My official BB meets the C&R FFL requirements and only logs C&Rs acquired/disposed of during the time I have been so licensed.

yup

I keep my C&R receipts in an envelope pasted into the cover of my BB.

All other receipts are kept in another file.

I do this just because it's easier to find my C&R paperwork if I ever need it... and it looks like I might.

 

[ScottS]

I sorta do the same. My second set of records includes EVERYTHING and I use that for insurance and personal purposes. Any agency that wants that info must show a warrant to get it or I would not show it to them.

My official BB meets the C&R FFL requirements and only logs C&Rs acquired/disposed of during the time I have been so licensed.

This is exactly what I do: an inventory of my guns and a bound book of my C&R acq's/dispo's while licensed.

 

[IPSC_DRL]

So, should I have a dog or not?

 

[Dirtypacman]

Glad to hear it went well for you
Thanks for giving us some feedback on it.

 

[Mike1911]

I use MS Excel for record keeping. I printout the entire file, tape & staple the pages together (in the correct format) is this considered a 'bound book'? Is this o.k. with the BATF? Or do I need a special type of "bound book"? The whole thing is 2 pages total.

Thanks

 

[vellnueve]

Using the computer file itself is not OK for the bound book, but if it's printed out I don't see the issue. Still, read my disclaimer.

I'd hole punch them and put them in a binder, just because stapled sheets aren't a book.

 

[xstickfightx]

This recent spree of audits in MA made me call the ATF and figure out why I havent received my new amended 03 FFL that was filed two months ago before I moved. Lady on the phone said, "oh, we have the new information in the computer. I'll send a request for it to be printed again in the next ten days and sent."

Much simpler than I thought. Only needed my first 3 and last 5 digits on the license.

 

[gws1063]

A while back the ATF was getting some heat from (some) Congress members and "gun safety advocates" for not inspecting all those dangerous FFL holders as often as permitted by law. The ATF has started hyping their inspection stats and the positive effect on FFL compliance, as noted in this ATF "Factsheet". Here is an excerpt which I found particularly interesting:

In Fiscal Year 2007, ATF conducted approximately 10,000 compliance inspections. More than 40 percent of the licensees inspected were determined to be in full compliance with the law and regulations and no violations were cited.

While 40% is surprisingly low (at least to me), it struck me that one way to dramatically increase both the number of inspections and the "full compliance" rate is to audit more C&R holders. The audits are much faster and I have to believe that 03FFL compliance is much, much better than 40%.

I may be cynical, but I bet the numbers for 2008 and 2009 are even better than 2007!

Oh, and when I asked why the hidden room and big dog questions, I was told it was "in case we need to come back some day". It certainly left me with a warm, fuzzy feeling about my government.

-Gary

 

[terraformer]

Oh, and when I asked why the hidden room and big dog questions, I was told it was "in case we need to come back some day". It certainly left me with a warm, fuzzy feeling about my government.

I was afraid that was why they were asking...

 

[GSG]

Abstract WHAT IF thought of the day.

BATFE is deemed superfluous and closed down as of 12/31/2010.

What happens to their records?

Kind of like when an FFL goes out of business, they turn over all their 4473's and everything to ATF.

 

[doobie]

Just wondering, what happens if a C&R FFL doesn't have their BB in order? Is there a fine or jail time or do they lose their license or have a period of time to get it in order?

 

[FalArAk]

I'd gather the dog question, along with the 'any hidden rooms?' question are designed to hint at the possibility of a raid in order to provoke you into saying something you shouldn't. It's like a criminal profiling screener question.

Thanks for adding yet another level of paranoia to an already overloaded mental database.

 

[jdubois]

Just wondering, what happens if a C&R FFL doesn't have their BB in order? Is there a fine or jail time or do they lose their license or have a period of time to get it in order?

The only times that I've heard of, the agent just noted the problem and made the FFL correct it while they were there. I imagine if the book was a complete and unrepentant mess, they'd likely lose their license.

Thanks for adding yet another level of paranoia to an already overloaded mental database.

I actually thought my interpretation was less paranoid than assuming they were pre-prepping for a potential real raid.

 

[vellnueve]

Just wondering, what happens if a C&R FFL doesn't have their BB in order? Is there a fine or jail time or do they lose their license or have a period of time to get it in order?

Depends on whether it's a major mistake. If you just filled out a column wrong, just fix the problem. If you don't even have your bound book, then you'd probably lose the license.