The ATF Just Left My House...

[Martlet]

And thats all that matters, I have nothing to hide and neither should anyone else

To me that's all that matters. It still irks me that I have to go through the licensing process or that anything I buy is any of the .gov's business. I keep my books in order, and have successfully logged my one purchase.

 

[KMS]

When you apply for a C&R you read the rules..audits are clearly stated as part of the FFL..all of us that are C&R holders know this.

 

[FalArAk]

Inviting him to your house was the wrong thing to do.

But,he was nice to you so you have nothing to worry about.

 

[In_God_We_Trust]

Inviting him to your house was the wrong thing to do.

But,he was nice to you so you have nothing to worry about.

Wait, you mean... You think they may be profiling you and seeing where you keep the toys just in case?

I am reading this and I am sure I will be next on the list...I am sure it is a matter of time. Nothing to hide... I have a separate safe for my C&R vs. Fun Toys, so bring it on.

 

[dannyk45]

Do you have to show them where your weapons are stored? Or if you do meet him outside the home do you bring your C&R purchases and your book with you. I only have 2 anyways.

 

[FalArAk]

A while ago I was going to get a C&R,but when I found out about these inspections I said f*** it.

I don't have anything to hide,but the whole thing is Orwellian to me.

 

[In_God_We_Trust]

A while ago I was going to get a C&R,but when I found out about these inspections I said f*** it.

I don't have anything to hide, but the whole thing is Orwellian to me.

Well, given who is in office now, I am sure you are now thanking your intuition in not getting one. Looking back, I guess I would be with you as well except for the MG license as you need to be a bona fide Collector of firearms:

A "bona fide collector of firearms," for the purpose of issuance of a machine gun license, shall be defined as an individual who acquires firearms for such lawful purposes as historical significance, display, research, lecturing, demonstration, test firing, investment or other like purpose. For the purpose of issuance of a machine gun license the acquisition of firearms for sporting use or for use as an offensive or defensive weapon shall not qualify an applicant as a bona fide collector of firearms. An individual licensed pursuant to 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, Sections 921-929 and 27 CFR part 178 shall be deemed a bona fide collector of firearms for the purpose of this regulation.

So no C&R, no fun toys.

 

[Martlet]

When you apply for a C&R you read the rules..audits are clearly stated as part of the FFL..all of us that are C&R holders know this.

Knowing and following the rules is far different than agreeing with them. A license shouldn't be required to exercise your 2nd Amendment rights.

 

[NFD9]

So no C&R, no fun toys.

Not true.
Some CLEO might want to see it, but not required.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Inviting him to your house was the wrong thing to do.

Greg, although I agree with you, the other options aren't very practical in a post-9/11 world.

The idea of dragging guns out of your car in front of the O'Neill Federal Bldg (where you can't even park) is much less pleasant (but allowed for by BATFE Regs) and if you can't carry them all in in one trip, your car will probably be stolen or the guns stolen while you're bringing the first bunch in the door!

Asking your PD if you can meet there may sound good, but if you have a bunch you may give your chief or licensing officer a coronary and cause problems for your LTC. After all, they consider owning more than two to be an "arsenal"!

I asked him that very question....If you buy say a K31....but purchace it via a 4473 it does not have to be in the bound book, only guns you acquire with your C&R license.

This has been hashed out by people a lot smarter than me for many years and the conclusions are that YOU are licensed and thus must comply with the Regs/laws. Their conclusion (this is on a C&R Email list that I've been on for 10 years) is regardless of how you bought it, it goes in the BB.

And that he didn't care what I had personally. Only if I had a lot of C&Rs, he would want me to tag the personal ones so it's easy to tell the difference. But where I only had two, he didn't care if they were in the same safe. That was about the extent of that one.

I find this disturbing and believe he's mixing up the rules for 01s with 03s. 01s MUST keep their personal collections separate from their business inventory. 03s are NOT Dealers and thus all our guns are our "personal collection", therefore there is no need to segregate C&Rs from modern guns or tag them. Some of us have more than 2 C&Rs and multiple safes might be nice to have but aren't always practical for money and space reasons. And I've always hated the idea of "segregation" anyhow!! As someone who believes in equality for all, I believe that all my guns are entitled to mingle with whatever they like at any time . . . the C&Rs should NOT have to sit in the back of the bus!


BTW, I've read a fair amount of wrong info by BATFE auditors of 03s in posts on these audits around the country.

 

[Underwhere]

Interesting thread.

I just got my C&R but have not purchased anything.

I was told by a lawyer in college one day, in fact spent the entire lecture speaking about how never to let anyone in any enforcement role into your house...even if you have nothing to hide, have done nothing wrong.

I'm not quite sure how I would have handled it...but glad things seem like they turned out ok.

 

[massgun]

A bunch of us were audited in November and December last year and most of us were asked several questions generally as follows:
- do you have any large dogs?
- do you have an alarm system?
- where are the firearms stored? When I answered "in a safe in the basement", the next question was:
- is there access to the basement other than from inside the house?
- do you have firearms other than the C&R firearms?
- do you have a massachusetts firearms license?
- do you have any other firearms licenses such as non resident permits?
- does anyone else in the house have access to or have anything to do with keeping the paperwork for the C&R license?
-do you have any NFA firearms?

My auditor, a young woman, did not ask to see the storage area nor was she interested in seeing my personal firearms. (and for those who will inevitably ask, no, she was not "hot").

If interested, here's the previous thread on inspections: http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=49324

 

[In_God_We_Trust]

I find this disturbing and believe he's mixing up the rules for 01s with 03s. 01s MUST keep their personal collections separate from their business inventory. 03s are NOT Dealers and thus all our guns are our "personal collection", therefore there is no need to segregate C&Rs from modern guns or tag them. Some of us have more than 2 C&Rs and multiple safes might be nice to have but aren't always practical for money and space reasons. And I've always hated the idea of "segregation" anyhow!! As someone who believes in equality for all, I believe that all my guns are entitled to mingle with whatever they like at any time . . . the C&Rs should NOT have to sit in the back of the bus!


BTW, I've read a fair amount of wrong info by BATFE auditors of 03s in posts on these audits around the country.

+1

I totally agree with you: Very well said.

One point: While that is very well stated, if you have any Class 3 items, you need to be VERY careful not to give others access to the "NFA" safe since you would be in a world of hurt if somehow, the "wrong" people were able to gain access to those NFA items.

 

[medic12]

There seems to be quite a few inspections lately. I'd never heard of one before, then over the past month I know of a dozen personally. Activity seems to have increased. I wonder why.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the Worcester and Auburn busts.

Glad things went well for the both of you.

 

[graftyman]

Why would the ATF care if you have a dog?

My answer would be yes and he is registered too.

 

[Len-2A Training]

No NFA stuff here to worry about.

I don't like most of those questions. Totally irrelevant to an 03.

Why would the ATF care if you have a dog?

My answer would be yes and he is registered too.

They might insist you put the dog in the BB too!

 

[GSG]

There seems to be quite a few inspections lately. I'd never heard of one before, then over the past month I know of a dozen personally. Activity seems to have increased. I wonder why.

Every person I've talked to who was inspected all said it was quick, painless, and the agent was at least polite, if not downright friendly.

I (personally) have noticed a heck of a lot more posts from people on here saying "I just got my C&R," so maybe this is why we hear about more inspections, because there's more C&R holders.

 

[Garys]

A bunch of us were audited in November and December last year and most of us were asked several questions generally as follows:
- do you have any large dogs?
- do you have an alarm system?
- where are the firearms stored? When I answered "in a safe in the basement", the next question was:
- is there access to the basement other than from inside the house?
- do you have firearms other than the C&R firearms?
- do you have a massachusetts firearms license?
- do you have any other firearms licenses such as non resident permits?
- does anyone else in the house have access to or have anything to do with keeping the paperwork for the C&R license?
-do you have any NFA firearms?

My auditor, a young woman, did not ask to see the storage area nor was she interested in seeing my personal firearms. (and for those who will inevitably ask, no, she was not "hot").

If interested, here's the previous thread on inspections: http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=49324

The only question on that list that I was asked was if I had any large dogs. The inspector, and they are in different division than agents, had no interest in where or how the guns were stored, non C&R weapons, my LTC, who else had licenses or permits, how much ammo I had, how I stored it, or anything else not directly involved in checking the BB and the firearms there in. The only weird thing was that she did ask me if there were any "secret rooms" in the house. I did restrain the urge to blurt out "Put the candle beck".

As to the people who advocated busting the balls of the inspectors and berating C-Pher for not doing so, feel free do that and let us know how it works out.

 

[Martlet]

I (personally) have noticed a heck of a lot more posts from people on here saying "I just got my C&R," so maybe this is why we hear about more inspections, because there's more C&R holders.

Maybe, but it's not just here. Go look on arfcom. It seems like there is a daily post of someone getting audited from all around the country. Maybe they just decided to ramp it up.

 

[jdubois]

And, for having my 03FFL, one of the deals is you're subject to suprise inspections. I find it very cool of him to call me ahead of time to work out a time to go over my books.

Inspections, yes. Surprise inspections, no. They have to call ahead of time and schedule an appointment. They're not allowed to just show up unless they have reason to believe a crime has been committed. (Well, I suppose they're allowed to show up, but you are under no obligation to let them in if they don't have an appointment).

I asked him that very question....If you buy say a K31....but purchace it via a 4473 it does not have to be in the bound book, only guns you acquire with your C&R license.

This subject drives my nuts. ATF has answered this question repeatedly in both directions. I have a letter from them in my files (and I posted up here a while ago) that I received from ATF saying all C&R eligible guns acquired while you have your license, whether you have used your license to acquire them or not, must be logged in your A&D records. But I've also seen another letter from ATF from somebody asking the exact same question that said only guns you have actually acquired with your license need to be logged.

Holy sh*t, ATF. Make your freakin' mind up.

I would recommend, however, that you do log all C&R eligible guns. It's the safer position to take.

 

[C-pher]

I asked him that very question....If you buy say a K31....but purchace it via a 4473 it does not have to be in the bound book, only guns you acquire with your C&R license.

As we had the same inspector, it would make sense why he told me the same thing.

There seems to be quite a few inspections lately. I'd never heard of one before, then over the past month I know of a dozen personally. Activity seems to have increased. I wonder why.

Every person I've talked to who was inspected all said it was quick, painless, and the agent was at least polite, if not downright friendly.

When I asked that, he said that they just seem to do rounds. A couple of years they do Pawn Shops, a couple of years it's Gunsmiths, etc... He told me that it was just time to do 03FFLs. His thinking is that it will be another 6 or more years before we hear from them again.

And thats all that matters, I have nothing to hide and neither should anyone else

I agree. I want to hear someone on here with their C&R that the inspector can't come into their house. And make sure that it's inclement weather if you can.

Tell that to the Jews during WW2 that were disarmed and killed. We need to get rid of the ATF. A gun is private property and the government has no business sticking its nose into my constitutional rights. I was thinking of getting a C&R but I don't like the fact that I will be subject to audit by the ATF.

While I agree with you. When I went for my FFL, that's changed the rules. They were in place before I got them...therefore I knew what I was getting into. Like many on here, if you don't want them coming over, then don't get your C&R.

Maybe, but it's not just here. Go look on arfcom. It seems like there is a daily post of someone getting audited from all around the country. Maybe they just decided to ramp it up.

See above...

 

[namedpipes]

Tell that to the Jews during WW2 that were disarmed and killed. We need to get rid of the ATF. A gun is private property and the government has no business sticking its nose into my constitutional rights. I was thinking of getting a C&R but I don't like the fact that I will be subject to audit by the ATF.

Abstract WHAT IF thought of the day.

BATFE is deemed superfluous and closed down as of 12/31/2010.

What happens to their records?

 

[doobie]

Abstract WHAT IF thought of the day.

BATFE is deemed superfluous and closed down as of 12/31/2010.

What happens to their records?

Why would the BATFE be considered superfluous? It's a high revenue generating tax agency.... of course it also spends a lot...

 

[vellnueve]

Abstract WHAT IF thought of the day.

BATFE is deemed superfluous and closed down as of 12/31/2010.

What happens to their records?

They're doing an audit to make sure everything is documented properly. Not building a massive database of every gun in the country...

 

[Admin]

I take it he missed your dog?

 

[terraformer]

The only question on that list that I was asked was if I had any large dogs.

Did you ask why he asked this?

 

[jonathans]

is your dog easily convertable to full-automatic?

 

[LoginName]

A bunch of us were audited in November and December last year and most of us were asked several questions generally as follows:
- do you have any large dogs?

Why would the ATF care if you have a dog?

My answer would be yes and he is registered too.

They actually asked that question?

FYI... the ATF/JBT and dogs thing is a persistent joke on another firearms forum. It usually entails them showing up unannounced at your home at 3:00 AM, kicking in your door and shooting your dog before or during a sweep of the premises. Oftentimes the raid is on the wrong address or for a minor violation.

 

[jdubois]

Did you ask why he asked this?

I'd gather the dog question, along with the 'any hidden rooms?' question are designed to hint at the possibility of a raid in order to provoke you into saying something you shouldn't. It's like a criminal profiling screener question.

 

[doobie]

is your dog easily convertable to full-automatic?

One bowl of water and a cup of food and that dog is good to go for a long piss or crap. Also, he'll bite you over and over with one command "Attack" Sounds fully automatic to me...