Some people just plain scare me at the range!

jdubois said:
I'm with drgrant on this one. Firearms training is certainly a subject every PD should be actively discussing, but the whole "let's make a law about it" approach is what's gotten this damn state into the the mess it's in.
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I concur. Instead of more laws, why not more support? Why not press local city councils to procure more money for training in their budgets? There's so much waste in budgets that a proactive effort to secure more funds for training makes sense. Trouble is, few think it's important enough to pursue...
 
drew said:
over 60 % of police officers accross the us don't shoot their duty weapon more than they are required to... I think it should be Federal Law for PO's to have to qualify at least 4-6 times a year, each qual being different every time.....
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And how is the training of MUNICIPAL police a FEDERAL issue? [rolleyes]

The usual knee-jerk response; "There otta be a law!," usually ends up causing more problems than the one it ostensibly solved.
 
And how is the training of MUNICIPAL police a FEDERAL issue?

The usual knee-jerk response; "There otta be a law!," usually ends up causing more problems than the one it ostensibly solved.
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I agree with you Scrivner...

I see with our guys that its very easy to say make it a law or procedure for Officers to qualify 4 to 6 times a year but that is so much easier said than done. As far as we are concerned, its so FREAKIN hard to get our guys (100+) to qualify at the range 3 times a year. When you add in OT and vacation time and makeup days, working with union regarding pay, getting us as the training guys the resources needed to make it happen (transportation, equipment and the list goes on and on) etc. it does not turn out anywhere as simple as making the blanket statement, "they need to qualify 4 times a year." There are just too many variables involved that dont allow for it when you are dealing with this many people. At least at our dept there are.

However we try to do the best we can with the time we have with our guys. Give them the best training we can in the time allowed. And I agree with a post that was made earlier that we have a responsibility as safety concious shooters that when we are at the range (on duty or off duty) and some bozo shows up (whoever it is) and is doing irresponsible things, we need to put a stop to it one way or another. Whether its having a friendly word with them or reporting them. Of course its easier said than done but it could mean someones life at some point.
Rob
 
Lugnut said:
I honestly don't want this to turn into a 2nd A debate or a LTC training requirement discussion but I have to tell ya- some people just have NO common sense when handling guns at the range. They shouldn't even own a gun.

I've seen people walking off the line with their muzzle pointing everywhere but downrange, I've seen people checking their guns by looking into the muzzle, people that can't freaking keep their finger off the trigger, people that turn to talk to others with the gun moving in the direction of the other folks, I've seen people shoot the damn ground 10 feet in front of them when the target was 25 feet away at 5 feet off the ground, etc. God it make me insane.

Oh yeah- I do try to help them out in a polite and courteous way... as much as I want to scream! Am I alone in my perspective?
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Come back when you have some guy that never shot a Thompson on FA before muzzle sweep you with a finger on the trigger asking "Is this how....?"

Adrenaline rush to say the least.
 
ateamrob said:
Trianual basis......Day fire quals, night fire quals and Tactical range...... [smile]

gittiup.... [grin]
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Dare to dream...
Once a year Qual, no night, no tactical. Actually no training other than several active shooter sessions and a very rare FATS.
The citizens police academy did get to do some night shooting from what I was told.
 
I think it should be Federal Law for PO's to have to qualify at least 4-6 times a year, each qual being different every time
The Feds love to issue requirements but never fund them. Sit down and actually figure out how much it will cost to hold additional qualification sessions and you may rethink it.

Each session involved four hours overtime per man. 75 to 80 sworn officers. Quickly throwing together some figures, 80 sworn officers, top to bottom at four hours each. An average of $60 per hour at the overtime rate. $18,000. To qualify for one firearm, eight thousand rounds of factory 9mm or 40S&W. Cost was $118 per K but that was three years ago. Add secondary firearms at 100 per firearm and we probably burn about 12 thousand rounds of ammo. Around $3500 for ammo at today's pricing. Then it is two hundred per week use fees to get a week at the range, if time is even available.

As far as the quals being different every time, that isn't allowable in many states. NJ has a set 50 or 60 round course and it is the ONLY one allowable for qualifications. It is set out in very detailed requirements. However you can always add to this, but the standard HQC-1 or 2 must be shot twice a year at a minimum at least three months apart. Many of these standards are the result of state and federal case law over the years.

Budgets are tight as it is. Cost of gas is way up over the past years. Health insurance and other costs. It's nice to say "let's qualify six times a year". You as a taxpayer is footing the bill. Firearms is not by any means the only required training that must be done on a yearly basis and every year more is added to the list.
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I don't think officers should have to qual more, but maybe provide them with a free range and so much ammunition per month/quarter or whatever so they can go and practice on their own time. Then tighten up the standards on the quals so that it can be obvious if the officer hasn't been practicing. If they fail the stringent quals then check to see if they have been using the range time and ammo allotted and take disciplinary action if neccessary.
 
Greg said:
Come back when you have some guy that never shot a Thompson on FA before muzzle sweep you with a finger on the trigger asking "Is this how....?"

Adrenaline rush to say the least.
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Did someone bash his head in with the buttstock of the gun afterwards? [laugh]

-Mike
 
drew said:
I think it should be Federal Law for PO's to have to qualify at least 4-6 times a year, each qual being different every time.....
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I think there should be a Federal Law that requires people to write the Constitution on a blackboard 100 times over before the run their mouths arguing for federal laws on issues the federal government has no jurisdiction.
 
over 60 % of police officers accross the us don't shoot their duty weapon more than they are required to... I think it should be Federal Law for PO's to have to qualify at least 4-6 times a year, each qual being different every time.....---Drew
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I understand your sentiment, and I think it would be interesting to see a cost to benefit study done relative to the shooting skills of different LEO agencies.


Respectfully,

jkelly
 
the only way you will get any state or local municipality to do anything is if it is regulated by the feds, why do you think all POs have to QUAL at least once a year now?
And the funding is easy, stop spending money on stupid shit... like details where most cops are standing looking into the hole in the ground, heres an idea that about 45 + states have adapted, (flagmen) theres your money for training, theres your answer to unions, thats why i said make it a law.... GET IT NOW????
 
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drew said:
the only way you will get any state or local municipality to do anything is if it is regulated by the feds, why do you think all POs have to QUAL at least once a year now?
And the funding is easy, stop spending money on stupid shit... like details where most cops are standing looking into the whole in the ground, heres an idea that about 45 + states have adapted, (flagmen) theres your money for training, theres your answer to unions, thats why i said make it a law.... GET IT NOW????
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Yes; we get your utter ignorance of how things work.

PD's do NOT spend money on details; they MAKE money on them. As the officers themselves make the most money out of detail work, they are hardly going to favor any change in that system, as has been repeatedly - and very RECENTLY - shown. That you don't realize that fact just underscores your already obvious lack of qualifications to lecture us on the subject.

Increased Federal intervention into areas wholly outside Federal jurisdiction is NOT the be-all and end-all solution to every problem. Rather, it often exacerbates the problem and/or creates new problems, all at greater expense.

In short, we are not drinking your "Federalize it!" kool-aid cocktail. NOW do you "get it?"
 
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jkelly said:
I understand your sentiment, and I think it would be interesting to see a cost to benefit study done relative to the shooting skills of different LEO agencies.


Respectfully,

jkelly
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First let me say that I have the upmost amount of respect and appreciation for LEOs. Their job is by no means an easy one, and I appreciate all that they do.
That being said, I think that every professional has a responsibility to maintain the tools of his/her trade, regardless of company sponsorship. As an accountant I'm required to take a minimal amount of professional training every year. These classes are sponsored by my firm, but are not nearly sufficient to maintain my skills and knowledge at the levels they need to be for me to perform my job at the levels necessary. So I pursue additional education and training outside the office, on my own time and time.

I'd expect the same from LEOs, in particular regarding matters of marksmanship and physical fitness.
 
I had a guy sweep his "tool" towards me at the range. I said do not point that thing in any direction but downrange! His attitude was what's the big deal? At that point I loaded my carry piece racked one and placed it IWB for him to see. He got the picture quick.
 
drew said:
oh enlighten me old wise one....
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I doubt that's possible, but here's a concept you might try grasping:

Self-interest in the form of self-preservation.

The better you shoot and the better your tactical skills, the SAFER you are on the job from the dangers that come with the job. Ergo, practice is in the cop's own best interests.

We shouldn't HAVE to require cops to be good shots; they should WANT to be.
 
I agree with TonyDedo, but unfortinately most LEOs don't....... with three years of experience in LE, and over 26 years of experience on the range, you can see where i'm coming from.... most LEOs won't shoot outside of annual qual unless they are mandated simple fact, hows that for ignorance??? or is right on the money???
 
The problem is though Scrivener, most LEOs dont think they have to practice, so there fore they dont want to practice......
 
or they feel that they will never have to use their firearm so why waist time practicing with it? This was a common response I received when I aked numerous LEOs in a few different departments all over the states...
 
Though I'm not an LEO, I can see where Tony is coming from and at the same time, can't see a single shred of light that more federal crappety-crap would do to improve it. I work in mental health - psychiatric outreach. Not by law, but by the guidelines put forth my my employer, I am required to take periodic training and keep my first aid, CPR and medication administration certificates current. The US Senate didn't have to tell me I needed to be current to be effective at my job. Scrivener is right on the money - it's in the cops own best interest to be a better shot and at the same time, a job requirement, (not a law) should be put forth to mandate more frequent training...
 
I'd expect the same from LEOs, in particular regarding matters of marksmanship and physical fitness.---TonyDedo
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I understand your sentiment also, but I’m generally not one to suggest a course of action without studying the problem first. That said I’d love to see a well done study that could quantify the costs and benefits of marksmanship in regards to the different LEO agencies.

It’d be nice if all LEOs were required to fight like Norris, think like Einstein, run like Hayes and shoot like TGO, but I’m not interested in becoming a LEO. [grin]


Respectfully,

jkelly
 
Lok into the laws on what your employer is mandated too, I wouldnt be supprised if his/hers employees have to have cpr/1st responder, medication distr. etc......
 
All I know is, I have spent thousands of dollars and hrs upon hrs of time on training, and I still Have alot to learn, and could still use more practice, that whole self pres. thing someone mentioned earlier, "we are man-kind so therefore we are flawed"
 
drew said:
All I know is, I have spent thousands of dollars and hrs upon hrs of time on training, and I still Have alot to learn, and could still use more practice, that whole self pres. thing someone mentioned earlier, "we are man-kind so therefore we are flawed"
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And all managed without a Federal mandate! Who'd have thought it possible.... [rolleyes]

Now work on your spelling and punctuation.
 
dwarven1 said:
And yes, I've heard of IPSC. IDPA for people with 6-digit salaries.
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I've been shooting it for a half-decade now and have never had a "6-digit" income - unless you count the two AFTER the decimal point.

USPSA is LESS expensive to compete in than IDPA. No need to buy "tactical" flashlights or those spiffy, "shoot me first!" 5-11 pants and vests! [devil2]
 

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