Sold my first gun today

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Shane

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Sold my first gun at work today.

Guy from Boston came in looking for a home defense shotgun. Sold him a $160 12 ga. shotgun with a 18.5 inch barrel.

Checked the chamber repeatedly throughout the sale... [laugh]

Sold him some 00-Buck also.

00-Buck is a good choice for home defense is it not? He said he lived in a house not an apartment.
 
I used to load mine with AA Featherweight birdshot. Didn't want anything going thru the walls/ceilings to hit the old
man upstairs.

"If you're worried that a missed shot might penetrate through a wall and harm others, load your shotgun so that the first one or two cartridges to be fired is number 6 or smaller birdshot, followed by standard lead #1 buckshot (12 gauge) or #3 buckshot (20 gauge). If your first shot misses, the birdshot is less likely to endanger innocent lives outside the room. If your first shot fails to stop the attacker, you can immediately follow-up with more potent ammunition."
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm


Shane said:
Sold my first gun at work today.
SNIP

00-Buck is a good choice for home defense is it not? He said he lived in a house not an apartment.
Click to expand...
 
00 buck is basically a .32 caliber projectile. Way too much penetration in a home for my taste. I use #4 and #6 hunting loads.
 
The Personal defense TV has had 2 episodes saying that bird shot is the best for home defense. Not as loud, and easy to spackle the mess up. Either way they still say you have to aim.
 
Don't tell TonyD that. He seems to think he can take a shot of close range bird shot to the chest and still take the Sam Adams out of my hand... [rolleyes]
 
GTOShootr said:
I like this website.

The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth
Click to expand...

Box-O-Truth notwithstanding, I use #4 buck in my HD shotgun.

Just because it will go through some sheetrock doesn't mean it will have enough energy to hurt someone on the other side. I can easily put a ball bearing through three pieces of sheetrock with a wrist rocket, and yet I was never able to so much as break the skin on my little brother's ass when we were growing up.
 
the box o truth was nice but a tad skewed. A real test would have been for him to contruct a wall as is built in an actual house. 5/8" sheet rock is used for fire board and 1/2" is normal wall use.

His sheet rock wasn't supported length wise by 2x4's 16 on center as in most houses and that's why it collapsed the way it did.

1/2' sheet rock with and without insulation I believe 1/2" plywood and cedar shingle or clapboard siding....if it penetrates that it's outside your house and is dangerous.

Do a test hitting the 2x4 wall stud and one without.

I don't think his test was a valid example for a home defense penetration test.
 
Weer'd Beard said:
He's got a great forum over there for such suggestions, sksguns. I'll be looking for ya!
Click to expand...

I believe he's unveiled some useful information but the best way to simulated would be to build an exact replica of a wall you would actually see in a house. I don't have 12 pieces of 5/8" sheet rock for walls in my house. That's all I'm saying...
 
I hear you. His "tests" aren't very good but it is a free site where people shoot neat stuff and take pictures of it that I can look at while I'm supposed to be working, so I like it!
 
It still amazes me how much information continues to be disseminated on pure conjecture, opinion and emotion. It's akin to discussing gun control to a liberal. [thinking]

I'm not going to beat this dead horse any longer (I could not find the original debacle of a debate) but I will, once again, offer factual and tested information below.

God forbid anyone need defend their life with a firearm. However, if you are ever forced to do so your life, and / or your loved ones lives will depend on the intelligent decisions and preparations made well in advance.


Shotgun Pellet Wound Ballistics
A shotgun pellet produces wound trauma by crushing the tissue it comes into direct contact with as it penetrates. In order to produce wound trauma that will be effective in quickly stopping an attacker, the pellets must penetrate his body deeply enough to be able to pass through a vital cardiovascular structure and cause rapid fatal hemorrhage to quickly deprive the brain of oxygenated blood needed to maintain consciousness.
Click to expand...

...Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.

Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot, when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4 inches.
Click to expand...

12 Gauge Shotshell Ammunition
For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.
Click to expand...

Summary
With the right load, a shotgun can be very effective in quickly stopping the deadly violence being perpetrated by a criminal who's invaded your home.


...With birdshot you are wise to keep in mind that your gunfire has the potential to NOT PRODUCE an effective wound. Do not expect birdshot to have any decisive effect.

Number 1 buckshot has the potential to produce more effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck, without the accompanying risk of over-penetration. The IWBA believes, with very good reason, that number 1 buckshot is the shotshell load of choice for quickly stopping deadly criminal violence.

End Notes
The term "Magnum" when applied to shotshells means "more shot." Magnum shotshells usually propel their pellets at a lower velocity than a standard shotshell.

Shotgun barrel length does not affect our shotshell recommendions.

References
Cotey, Gus J.: "Number 1 Buckshot, the Number 1 Choice." Wound Ballistics Review, 2(4), 10-18, 1996.

MacPherson, Duncan: "Technical Comment on Buckshot Loads." Wound Ballistics Review, 2(4), 19-21, 1996.

MacPherson, Duncan: Bullet Penetration, Ballistic Publications, El Segundo, California, 1994.

DiMaio, Vincent J.M.: Gunshot Wounds, Elsevier Science Publishing Co., Inc., New York, New York, 1985, pp. 163-208
Click to expand...
 
Something I always wondered about birdshot:

Sure, the penetration isn't all that great - so why not aim for the face? In close range (20-35 feet) that an inside-the-house scenario would produce, I would think that even #8 lead shot would pretty much pulverize a goblin's entire head. If having one's eyes blown to tiny bits and a thousand knives of fire digging into their face doesn't put them down, nothing short of a .50 BMG is going to stop them...

That said, of course, my shotgun's got 00 buckshot, 3" magnum loads for HD...

Just a thought...
 
IMO if you're in a dangerous setup (eg apartment) birdshot
is better than nothing. I'd rather have something that
penetrates deeper, though. (I won't argue though, that
if you wail the BG in the face with birdshot, that's probably
pretty effective!)

One of the biggest conundrums in "home defense" is
getting projectiles which are considered "terminally effective"
but still don't overpenetrate. Most of the time you end up
with a contradiction in terms. This is true "on the street" as
well. I think the biggest risk reducer is shot placement.
Chances are whatever projectile you use, if it catches the target
on the way out, even if it leaves the target, it's lethality will be
reduced because you're shaving off velocity. Additionally, less
rounds required to neutralize the target means that
there's less strays to exit the premises/area and possibly
injure/kill somebody else.

-Mike
 
If you're looking for an argument you're not going to get it.

Tookie's victims were killed with birdshot...
 
TonyD said:
It still amazes me how much information continues to be disseminated on pure conjecture, opinion and emotion. It's akin to discussing gun control to a liberal. [thinking]
Click to expand...

My comments have nothing to do with conjecture, opinion or emotion. I was merely stating that his test was not a factual re-creation of a home scenario. If you are measuring varainces in shot penetration and are testing such for home defense to determine the maximum safe load and shot for home defense then you need to use a test wall constructed as it would be in a real home.

By your references it sounds like a considerable amount of research has already been done on this subject.
 
sksguns said:
My comments have nothing to do with conjecture, opinion or emotion. I was merely stating that his test was not a factual re-creation of a home scenario. If you are measuring varainces in shot penetration and are testing such for home defense to determine the maximum safe load and shot for home defense then you need to use a test wall constructed as it would be in a real home.

By your references it sounds like a considerable amount of research has already been done on this subject.
Click to expand...

Nothing to do with you sksguns, just Tony and I ribbing each other. [wink]
 
sksguns said:
My comments have nothing to do with conjecture, opinion or emotion. I was merely stating that his test was not a factual re-creation of a home scenario. If you are measuring varainces in shot penetration and are testing such for home defense to determine the maximum safe load and shot for home defense then you need to use a test wall constructed as it would be in a real home.

By your references it sounds like a considerable amount of research has already been done on this subject.
Click to expand...


Nothing was directed at your comment and I'm well aware of Ol' Painless' "tests".
 
derek said:
If you're looking for an argument you're not going to get it.

Tookie's victims were killed with birdshot...
Click to expand...

Derek you must remember that a Kill Does not nessisarily mean a Defensie Stop. If killing was all we were concerned about I'd use my Marlin .22 for home defence. I can pump about 18 rounds into a BG in rapid sucession. Factor blood loss, infection, wound trauma ect ect ect, that Hot-Lunch should KILL 99% of all attackers. Of course how long it takes said dose of lead is VERY important to me. While the person may shortly die, they won't nessisarilly stop thier attack untill death comes to them.

So Tookie killing some poor bastards with birdshot is one thing. But Tookie was out to murder people, We're just out to stop ourselves from being murdered.

Arrrr

-Weer'd Beard
 
I put birdshot in my Claymore Mines.

Actually I primarily use a handgun with a light instead. Shotgun it too slow to get to and restrictive to my viewing and movements.
 
Thank god they executed Tookie. I remember staying up all night, and cracked a beer and pounded it once the official word came in that he was done.
 

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