Smith & Wesson shooting range closed?

[ScottS]

Why are some people so against making sure that a firearm is not put in the hands of a felon.

I guess people feel the rest of the rental ranges in the free world don't run a NICS on every customer, and yet they don't seem to be overrun with felons.

You need to get out of MA more. Up here, you don't have to show any magic license to rent a gun, and they don't run NICS checks, and yet we manage to only have 5 or 6 active firefights at MFL per quarter. And I think that's down from 2011.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The ranges will have to be set up like a FFL and do a NICS check before you can shoot. That should not be that hard to set up.

NICS use is not authorized for any purpose other than firearms sales / transfers, and I doubt the feds would consider use by a rental range to be within that criteria.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Why are some people so against making sure that a firearm is not put in the hands of a felon.

You are buying into the cool-aid big time. Much of the "felon in possession law" is pure malum per-se, and has nothing to do with public safety. Yes, a credible argument can be made for prohibiting someone who killed a few people and got lucky because some parole board felt he had a sub-optimal childhood. BUT, I don't see any public safety hazard to allowing persons convicted of certain non-violent felonies (insider trading, tax evasion, etc.) possess guns and ammo. The fact that the total felon ban is now considered "obviously appropriate" by many on our side shows just how effective repeated assertion of a concept as fact ("felons and guns are always bad") can cause it to become generally accepted.

 

[Dream to Dream]

I've been a member of S&W for a long time and I'm just about fed up with it. In the past 3 months there has been about 5 different times I tried to go and they were closed for some reason or another, the most recent being closed for inventory as other people mentioned. I hate when they stick me next to first timers that act like cowboys, gangbangers or hot shots. I also love the type of guy who takes a girl to impress her but he can't hit the broadside of a barn yet he still acts like he just won top shot. I'm all for new people getting into shooting but most new people that I see go there don't have a shred of maturity. In all fairness there are new people that go there that are mature about it, I'm just never stuck near them. I'm going to still suck it up though and go when ever they decide to be open as this membership was a gift to me for Christmas and I am thankful for it so the least I can do is go until its out. Then my girlfriend and I plan to join Agawam Revolver Club. I haven't heard one negative thing about the club and its facilities so her and I are looking forward to it.

I'm a member at the SSC, primarily due to its close proximity to my work (convenient break-time range trips are always fun). I will agree that they need to pump some serious resources and efforts into the range to update it. Far too often, lanes or computers will be down and they will end up with a wait list to hit the range or make a purchase. They have some good folks working there, but staffing issues need to be addressed. However, I feel that it is one of the best ways to introduce someone to shooting: unsafe gun-handling is rarely overlooked, and never ignored. You will develop good, safe shooting habits there.

 

[exo]

Why are some people so against making sure that a firearm is not put in the hands of a felon.

Please enlighten us, how exactly would you "make sure" that a felon doesn't get their hands on a firearm? Posting a sign or requiring a form or making a rule or law has not and will not prevent anybody from getting a gun that wants one badly enough.

 

[TBalls]

Please enlighten us, how exactly would you "make sure" that a felon doesn't get their hands on a firearm? Posting a sign or requiring a form or making a rule or law has not and will not prevent anybody from getting a gun that wants one badly enough.

Someone should pass another law making it super-DUPER illegal.................that'll do the trick!

 

[KirkVN]

Just spoke to a buddy of mine that works at the S&W factory, and he said they are doing serial number inventory this week at the plant.

Perhaps that's all it is after all...

That's exactly what my friend said too, just inventory.

 

[Terminator03]

I've been a member of S&W for a long time and I'm just about fed up with it. In the past 3 months there has been about 5 different times I tried to go and they were closed for some reason or another, the most recent being closed for inventory as other people mentioned. I hate when they stick me next to first timers that act like cowboys, gangbangers or hot shots. I also love the type of guy who takes a girl to impress her but he can't hit the broadside of a barn yet he still acts like he just won top shot. I'm all for new people getting into shooting but most new people that I see go there don't have a shred of maturity. In all fairness there are new people that go there that are mature about it, I'm just never stuck near them. I'm going to still suck it up though and go when ever they decide to be open as this membership was a gift to me for Christmas and I am thankful for it so the least I can do is go until its out. Then my girlfriend and I plan to join Agawam Revolver Club. I haven't heard one negative thing about the club and its facilities so her and I are looking forward to it.

It's funny, when I started reading your post and noticed you were located in Agawam, I instantly thought "Why the hell is this guy driving all the way to S&W when we have an awesome range right in town"! You will love ARC, and even though they have a very nice indoor range, it is great to be able to shoot outdoors too. My only gripe about ARC is that the lighting isn't the best on the indoor range, but it is something I plan to address next time I speak with the people who have control over those things.

 

[mark056]

You are buying into the cool-aid big time. Much of the "felon in possession law" is pure malum per-se, and has nothing to do with public safety. Yes, a credible argument can be made for prohibiting someone who killed a few people and got lucky because some parole board felt he had a sub-optimal childhood. BUT, I don't see any public safety hazard to allowing persons convicted of certain non-violent felonies (insider trading, tax evasion, etc.) possess guns and ammo. The fact that the total felon ban is now considered "obviously appropriate" by many on our side shows just how effective repeated assertion of a concept as fact ("felons and guns are always bad") can cause it to become generally accepted.

Well Rob, I agree with about 99.9 percent of what you say, but this time I'm going to have to disagree. If I am "outing myself" (whatever that means, so be it and BTW that's Kool Aid not cool-aid ) One can make a case that there should be restrictions based on certain classes of offenses. What I find so interesting in the camp that wants to arm convicted felons as part of their reintegration into society, is the simple assertion that that all of their civil rights be restored. I don't see this happening. In our society no one ever completes paying their debt to society which is one of the reasons for a high recidivism rate. Once we start creating classes of offenders (which we already have with sex offenders, and we have yet to come up with a really effective way of dealing with them) we are creating yet more entitled classes. If we really wanted to reintegrate convicted felons then we should make criminal background checks illegal for employers.

I would much rather see a restoration of rights or a truly effective pardon system in place where one's conviction goes away. The Feds have really screwed up the restoration of gun rights thing.

I only hope that you are totally on board with giving ex-cons a break totally across the spectrum and that if you are a business owner that you hire them and promote them within your business. Somehow the idea that middle class "white collar" criminals are "different" because they are white and share similar cultural values as ourselves make them different Personally I hope that a sonofabitch like Bernie Madolf would never get a to use a gun after release from prison, you obviously do, and that is where we differ.

 

[Terminator03]

Well Rob, I agree with about 99.9 percent of what you say, but this time I'm going to have to disagree. If I am "outing myself" (whatever that means, so be it and BTW that's Kool Aid not cool-aid ) One can make a case that there should be restrictions based on certain classes of offenses. What I find so interesting in the camp that wants to arm convicted felons as part of their reintegration into society, is the simple assertion that that all of their civil rights be restored. I don't see this happening. In our society no one ever completes paying their debt to society which is one of the reasons for a high recidivism rate. Once we start creating classes of offenders (which we already have with sex offenders, and we have yet to come up with a really effective way of dealing with them) we are creating yet more entitled classes. If we really wanted to reintegrate convicted felons then we should make criminal background checks illegal for employers.

I would much rather see a restoration of rights or a truly effective pardon system in place where one's conviction goes away. The Feds have really screwed up the restoration of gun rights thing.

I only hope that you are totally on board with giving ex-cons a break totally across the spectrum and that if you are a business owner that you hire them and promote them within your business. Somehow the idea that middle class "white collar" criminals are "different" because they are white and share similar cultural values as ourselves make them different Personally I hope that a sonofabitch like Bernie Madolf would never get a to use a gun after release from prison, you obviously do, and that is where we differ.

Mark, I was in complete agreement with you until the end of your post. Madoff was a f'n scumbag, but it was not a violent, or firearm related crime, so why should he be exempted from owning a gun (assuming that he could EVER pay his debt to society)? I have a friend that was convicted of a "white collar" crime because he got involved with some unscrupulous real estate investors, and was asked to sign off on some appraisals that were promised to have things completed which never were. I am not saying that the guy didn't f-up by signing off on these appraisals, but as a result he lost his career, marriage, and did 6 months in jail, plus 18 months of probation and "house arrest". Inmo, he paid for his crime/mistake, but is now prohibited for life. Aside from making poor choices in business associates the guy probably has better character than I do myself, but can never legally handle a firearm again. Tell me how this is just, because I am failing to see the logic. Inmo, if you pull an armed robbery, armed rape, armed b&e, etc. then for sure you should never have the right to own firearms again, even if you served your time in prison, but for one of the multitude of non-violent crimes you can get bagged for, there is no relevance at all to being prohibited from owning firearms (once again, this is inmo).

 

[glock040]

no offense but the last time i went there the people renting guns looked a little scary, might even say a little ghetto. didnt a french un guy shoot himself there a while ago too.

 

[terraformer]

Well Rob, I agree with about 99.9 percent of what you say, but this time I'm going to have to disagree. If I am "outing myself" (whatever that means, so be it and BTW that's Kool Aid not cool-aid ) One can make a case that there should be restrictions based on certain classes of offenses. What I find so interesting in the camp that wants to arm convicted felons as part of their reintegration into society, is the simple assertion that that all of their civil rights be restored. I don't see this happening. In our society no one ever completes paying their debt to society which is one of the reasons for a high recidivism rate. Once we start creating classes of offenders (which we already have with sex offenders, and we have yet to come up with a really effective way of dealing with them) we are creating yet more entitled classes. If we really wanted to reintegrate convicted felons then we should make criminal background checks illegal for employers.

I would much rather see a restoration of rights or a truly effective pardon system in place where one's conviction goes away. The Feds have really screwed up the restoration of gun rights thing.

I only hope that you are totally on board with giving ex-cons a break totally across the spectrum and that if you are a business owner that you hire them and promote them within your business. Somehow the idea that middle class "white collar" criminals are "different" because they are white and share similar cultural values as ourselves make them different Personally I hope that a sonofabitch like Bernie Madolf would never get a to use a gun after release from prison, you obviously do, and that is where we differ.

Don't worry about Rob. You will see something in the future from us which should make it clear that a lot of people currently prohibited shouldn't be.

 

[dcmdon]

One of the unanswered questions regarding rental ranges is the degree of supervision that must be provided to non-LTC holding renters using the facilities. Some PDs accept the premise that a clerk at the front counter is sufficient to trigger the MGL exemption for non-licensees shooting under supervision of a licensee, whereas others take the position that an LTC holder must be present with the non-LTC holder while the firing takes place. I say "unanswered" because there has, to my knowledge, never been a MA court decision that specifically clarifies this issue as it applies to commercial rental ranges.

This later interpretation, adopted by the Worcester PD, is what was responsible for the shutdown of the Boston Gun Range. The bread and butter rentals are non-LTC holders trying out a gun, and the "direct supervision of each shooter" requirement is economically impractical except in a class setting.

I haven't shot at S&W for years, but used to go up there to do weekly IDPA matches. Back then, they wouldn't even hand you a gun to look at from the case if you didn't have a valid permit. I would use my
CT permit.

Are you guys saying that you don't need a license of any kind, or just a FID?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Somehow the idea that middle class "white collar" criminals are "different" because they are white and share similar cultural values as ourselves make them different

They are *different* in that they do not present the same risk profile of committing a violent act as someone convicted of assault, mayhem, murder, etc. Yes, someone who cheated by engaging in insider trading, or under-reporting income, is a crook - but neither would seem to indicate that such a person is any more likley than the average joe to go out and start shooting people, holding up stores, etc. So yes, the similarity in cultural values makes them different from violent criminals. The fact that they are criminals also makes them different from ourselves.

Put another way - you are walking unarmed down a dark street at night. You have a choice between encountering a Willie Horton or a Raj Rajaratnam. Would you recognize a cultural difference, or be in equal fear of violence from each of these felons?

You are right - a "relief from disabilities" program where the facts of an individual case can be examined makes the most sense. I know of one upstanding citizen who obtained such a relief before it was de-funded, and whose felony presents absolutely ZERO indication he is a public safety risk. Unfortunately, processing such applications was prohibited by congress, and SCOTUS ruled that absent an accepted application, someone unable to obtain said relief cannot appeal.

Are you guys saying that you don't need a license of any kind, or just a FID?

I don't know about S&W, but many rental ranges will rent a gun to someone without a license, even if they will not show a gun for prospective purchase to a non-license holder.

y I hope that a sonofabitch like Bernie Madolf would never get a to use a gun after release from prison, you obviously do, and that is where we differ.

I do not think someone convicted of a purely financial crime should be a PP, however, I also feel that the concept of "after release from prison" should be completely irrelevant in the Madoff case because of the level of harm his premeditated crimes caused to innocent victims.



Do you think a first offense DUI should be federally prohibited for life? (which is exactly what the current federal law requires for current MA DUI convictions)

 

[DavidC77]

I haven't shot at S&W for years, but used to go up there to do weekly IDPA matches. Back then, they wouldn't even hand you a gun to look at from the case if you didn't have a valid permit. I would use my
CT permit.

Are you guys saying that you don't need a license of any kind, or just a FID?

From what I remember you do not need a FID/LTC to rent a gun, you just need an ID.

I think that system would work if they had the person power there to oversee everything.

Times I have have been there it did look like the low life from off the street were there or like was said, you get the moron that is trying to show off to his girl/guy and doesn't know the 1st thing about a gun.

That again comes down to needing enough RO's there.

The guy that runs the SC totally feel through Big Time for us on the Tour, he wasn't even there when we got there, he didn't tell his guys that we were coming, he didn't tell them what him and I had set up for the tour/shoot. I had e-mailed him many times & talked with him many times before that day and he told me everything was all set the day before.

From what I have heard he has screwed that place up big time.

Again I don't know for sure what is going on over there right now, but I am trying to find out.

 

[mark056]

The French Guy was from the UN Police, He was attending an intructors course. That is done in different ranges than the ones you see from the show room. I have spoken to other firearms insructors about that incident, As no one from S&W was talking, all we could surmise was the guy was returning to the holster and had his finger still inside the trigger guard and on the trigger. So when he pushed the pistol back into the holster, the holster pushed on the finger.

Why the UN has a Police Force is still a question that I have.

The way I understand it Joe, is that the UN Police Force is a security force for UN Property which falls outside of anyone's jurisdiction. The NYPD has no authority there because the UN is technically not part of the NYC or even the US, sort of like how Vatican City has the Swiss Guards and doesn't rely on the Italian Police. The rightness or wrongness of the UN is out of the scope of my answer which focuses only on the fact that the UN has an internal security force on its grounds.

 

[Sig Sauer Shooter]

Clearly there needs to be a law against felons lying. If there was one on the books this never would have happened.

Agreed....

 

[DavidC77]

Clearly there needs to be a law against felons lying. If there was one on the books this never would have happened.

Agreed....

 

[Terminator03]

They are *different* in that they do not present the same risk profile of committing a violent act as someone convicted of assault, mayhem, murder, etc. Yes, someone who cheated by engaging in insider trading, or under-reporting income, is a crook - but neither would seem to indicate that such a person is any more likley than the average joe to go out and start shooting people, holding up stores, etc. So yes, the similarity in cultural values makes them different from violent criminals. The fact that they are criminals also makes them different from ourselves.

Put another way - you are walking unarmed down a dark street at night. You have a choice between encountering a Willing Horton or a Raj Rajaratnam. Would you recognize a cultural difference, or be in equal fear of violence from each of these felons?

You are right - a "relief from disabilities" program where the facts of an individual case can be examined makes the most sense. I know of one upstanding citizen who obtained such a relief before it was de-funded, and whose felony presents absolutely ZERO indication he is a public safety risk. Unfortunately, processing such applications was prohibited by congress, and SCOTUS ruled that absent an accepted application, someone unable to obtain said relief cannot appeal.



I don't know about S&W, but many rental ranges will rent a gun to someone without a license, even if they will not show a gun for prospective purchase to a non-license holder.



I do not think someone convicted of a purely financial crime should be a PP, however, I also feel that the concept of "after release from prison" should be completely irrelevant in the Madoff case because of the level of harm his premeditated crimes caused to innocent victims.



Do you think a first offense DUI should be federally prohibited for life? (which is exactly what the current federal law requires for current MA DUI convictions)

This has always bothered me because it is something that could theoretically happen to any average person just going out to dinner with their wife and having a glass, or (God forbid) 2 of wine with dinner and then driving home. Are they a typical bar room drunk? Hell no, but could very well be over the limit by statute. Assuming these "no good drunks" made the poor choice in thinking they were fine to drive home from the restaurant, now in addition to the regular fines, loss of their DL, etc., they are now a prohibited person as well.

 

[bugeye_berge]

Last time I rented a gun was in early December, tough it was down at Hoffmans in CT. I got a phone call from Four Seasons saying the S&W Governor came in and I was lucky enough to be home in Western MA that weekend so I took a trip down to see if they had one to shoot. I had no issues down there. They had 2 guys in the range to watch and each time someone came in they were met at a lane by a range official and given the walk through. I'd gladly go back there as I felt pretty confident that they had their sh*t together. It's too bad some people have to ruin it for the rest of us. Oh, I later drove to Woburn and picked up that Governor. Damn that hand-cannon is fun to shoot!

 

[Supermoto]

I assume any one that is for ex felons being prohibited from owning guns is also for them being prevented from practicing a religion of their choice

 

[ochmude]

I assume any one that is for ex felons being prohibited from owning guns is also for them being prevented from practicing a religion of their choice

Guns are dangerous, though. They kill people. Religions have never been a source of violence.

 

[kwatz]

The message on their machine this morning, is "closed for inventory until further notice".

 

[Terminator03]

I assume any one that is for ex felons being prohibited from owning guns is also for them being prevented from practicing a religion of their choice

I feel the current system is very flawed in that it doesn't differentiate based on the nature of the offense. If you commit a firearms related felony, then yes, you should be prohibited, but for a "white collar" type of crime - hell no! Religion is whole 'nother can 'o worms entirely.

 

[exo]

I feel the current system is very flawed in that it doesn't differentiate based on the nature of the offense. If you commit a firearms related felony, then yes, you should be prohibited, but for a "white collar" type of crime - hell no! Religion is whole 'nother can 'o worms entirely.

What about the people the ATF has f'd because their firearms malfunctioned and doubled at the range?

 

[Supermoto]

I feel the current system is very flawed in that it doesn't differentiate based on the nature of the offense. If you commit a firearms related felony, then yes, you should be prohibited, but for a "white collar" type of crime - hell no! Religion is whole 'nother can 'o worms entirely.

So if you are white collar criminal, say for money laundering, should you be prohibited from ever using money again?

If you are so dangerous that you can't be trust with a gun, then you can't be trust with many other inanimate objects and should be kept in prison.

 

[IrradiatedBacon]

Why are some people so against making sure that a firearm is not put in the hands of a felon.

 

[IrradiatedBacon]

I feel the current system is very flawed in that it doesn't differentiate based on the nature of the offense. If you commit a firearms related felony, then yes, you should be prohibited, but for a "white collar" type of crime - hell no! Religion is whole 'nother can 'o worms entirely.

The .gov wants everything to be labelled a felony these days. If you're safe enough to not be locked up and released back into society, your rights should be restored. End of story. This picking and choosing of well, you can have 1,3, but 2,4,5,6 are now drastically altered is pure BS.

 

[dcmdon]

From what I remember you do not need a FID/LTC to rent a gun, you just need an ID.

I think that system would work if they had the person power there to oversee everything.

Times I have have been there it did look like the low life from off the street were there or like was said, you get the moron that is trying to show off to his girl/guy and doesn't know the 1st thing about a gun.

That again comes down to needing enough RO's there.

The guy that runs the SC totally feel through Big Time for us on the Tour, he wasn't even there when we got there, he didn't tell his guys that we were coming, he didn't tell them what him and I had set up for the tour/shoot. I had e-mailed him many times & talked with him many times before that day and he told me everything was all set the day before.

From what I have heard he has screwed that place up big time.
at
Again I don't know for sure what is going on over there right now, but I am trying to find out.

That actually sounds incredibly stupid. I'm more inclined to be in favor of constitutional carry than I am in favor of letting non licensed people shoot at a public range. Its got nothing to do with legal rights to K&BA.

It has to do with a property owner (and their rights)responsibility to providing a safe environment for everyone else. Perhaps some kind of "check out" prior to being left alone in lieu of a license.

I've rented airplanes and race cars. Like guns, they are both things that can cause harm to others if misused. In both cases I've had to do a "checkout" ride before I would be left on my own to run them. I don't think its unreasonable to do the same at a public range.

Just to clarify, I'm talking about a practice implemented by a private company, not a government mandate. Although, if memory serves me right, the public side of the S&W academy has laminated glass between stations, which would serve to protect you from the guy next to you, to some degree.

Don

 

[drgrant]

I feel the current system is very flawed in that it doesn't differentiate based on the nature of the offense. If you commit a firearms related felony, then yes, you should be prohibited, but for a "white collar" type of crime - hell no! Religion is whole 'nother can 'o worms entirely.

So it doesn't bother you that most "firearms felonies" are based off malum prohibitum bullshit? (things which are illegal only because they are illegal, not because they could harm someone). 95% of all gun laws on the books today have nothing to do with things that actually place another person in danger.

It's one thing to say a guy popping off live ammo in the air in the town square is dangerous to others. It's another thing entirely to try to suggest that someone getting bagged for a felony because his barrel was too short, is some kind of a "community danger".

Yeah... David Olofson... real big threat to society.... (There are countless more, but I would probably exceed the character limit, as well as my blood pressure, while typing them all up... )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Olofson

-Mike