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Smith & Wesson shooting range closed?

drgrant said:
So it doesn't bother you that most "firearms felonies" are based off malum prohibitum bullshit? (things which are illegal only because they are illegal, not because they could harm someone). 95% of all gun laws on the books today have nothing to do with things that actually place another person in danger.

It's one thing to say a guy popping off live ammo in the air in the town square is dangerous to others. It's another thing entirely to try to suggest that someone getting bagged for a felony because his barrel was too short, is some kind of a "community danger".

Yeah... David Olofson... real big threat to society.... (There are countless more, but I would probably exceed the character limit, as well as my blood pressure, while typing them all up... )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Olofson

-Mike
Click to expand...

Mike, I was being very general in that last statement, and was not intending to include those other stupid felony busts in the scope of that statement. I agree with your point, and did not even consider those other type of firearm related felonies. I was directing it specifically at armed robbery, armed B&E, armed home invasion, armed kid napping, etc., etc. The NFA, and AWB bullshit is a whole different story altogether, but those things are a lot harder to differentiate from "real" gun crimes than say money laundering, tax evasion, etc. Hopefully this clears up my position a bit better.

For the other guys that are on the page of saying that they should be locked up if they are too much of a threat to society, you know that is a strawman, bullshit argument because there are many circumstances where dangerous people are released every day who shouldn't be simply because of overcrowding, technicalities, or other stupid reasons. That really is ignorant thinking inmo to say that anyone, even if they committed armed assault, homicide, etc. should have their gun rights restored simply because they are released from incarceration? Are you really that f'd up?
 
Terminator03 said:
Mike, I was being very general in that last statement, and was not intending to include those other stupid felony busts in the scope of that statement. I agree with your point, and did not even consider those other type of firearm related felonies. I was directing it specifically at armed robbery, armed B&E, armed home invasion, armed kid napping, etc., etc. The NFA, and AWB bullshit is a whole different story altogether, but those things are a lot harder to differentiate from "real" gun crimes than say money laundering, tax evasion, etc. Hopefully this clears up my position a bit better.

For the other guys that are on the page of saying that they should be locked up if they are too much of a threat to society, you know that is a strawman, bullshit argument because there are many circumstances where dangerous people are released every day who shouldn't be simply because of overcrowding, technicalities, or other stupid reasons. That really is ignorant thinking inmo to say that anyone, even if they committed armed assault, homicide, etc. should have their gun rights restored simply because they are released from incarceration? Are you really that f'd up?
Click to expand...

The point is that if these people really are that dangerous that they can't be allowed to have a gun, then they shouldn't be out amongst us because it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep them from having a gun. So these various rules and prohibitions etc. just serve to make life difficult for the rest of the law abiding.
 
Terminator03 said:
Mike, I was being very general in that last statement, and was not intending to include those other stupid felony busts in the scope of that statement. I agree with your point, and did not even consider those other type of firearm related felonies. I was directing it specifically at armed robbery, armed B&E, armed home invasion, armed kid napping, etc., etc. The NFA, and AWB bullshit is a whole different story altogether, but those things are a lot harder to differentiate from "real" gun crimes than say money laundering, tax evasion, etc. Hopefully this clears up my position a bit better.

For the other guys that are on the page of saying that they should be locked up if they are too much of a threat to society, you know that is a strawman, bullshit argument because there are many circumstances where dangerous people are released every day who shouldn't be simply because of overcrowding, technicalities, or other stupid reasons. That really is ignorant thinking inmo to say that anyone, even if they committed armed assault, homicide, etc. should have their gun rights restored simply because they are released from incarceration? Are you really that f'd up?
Click to expand...

I must be that ****ed up. No I'm not simply saying they should have their gun rights restored. I'm saying that they should have *ALL* their rights restored, which considering the definition of the word "All" would include their gun rights.

Overcrowding -- not having every little thing be illegal would probably help with this.

Released on a technicality -- They need to have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, if they don't, tough shit. You can call it a technicality all you want. If there is a shaky eyewitness, or someone didn't follow the chain of custody because they were too busy spanking it on duty.. that's too damn bad. Better luck next time.


If the penalty for murder in state X is 25 years, and the convict serves 25 years and then gets out, he should be a FREE man. Maybe the word free means something different to you than it does to me (and webster's dictionary). I'm not arguing that someone that commits murder, rape or some other hideous crime deserves anything other than life or the firing squad. However, if they served the penalty they were given, then I think their rights should be restored. They should be able to vote, they should be able to own guns, etc.

Perhaps the penalties for these crimes are too low (which I think they are). Perhaps the person should be locked up and throw away the key, or take them out back and put a round in their head old yeller style.
 
[sad] Received a message tonight that IDPA is suspended at S&W until further notice. It has usually been two Thursdays and one Saturday per month.
 
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There has been a lot of thread drift about the restoration of rights to convicted felons etc. I think maybe we should get back to the original thrust of the thread. This morning I sent the following email to Corporate and also cc'd the Shooting Sports Center. My email text follows along with the out of office reply that I got from the Shooting Sports Center. This, on the face of it, appears to be more than a simple inventory issue.

First, my email:

For the last decade or so Smith and Wesson has enjoyed a resurgence and renewed confidence among American Shooters, has developed exciting new products and is winning back the LE market share.

Currently the Shooting Sports Center is closed and IDPA competition has been canceled for the month of May. No real explanation has been forthcoming from either the Shooting Sports Center or Corporate. The internet is rife with all kinds of rumors and speculation, some of it really "out there."

A simple explanation or press release would be helpful at this time, not only to keep the general public informed but investors (of whom I am one) apprised of the current situation. Not to do so, is a public relations gaffe which will only intensify as the internet really takes off with speculation. Let's not see a return to the 1990's when S&W reached an all time public relations low.

Thank you for your consideration in this matter.

Mark Louttit
Leominster, MA

The out of office reply from the Shooting Sports Center:

The Smith and Wesson Shooting Sports Center will be closed until further notice.

It will be interesting to see if corporate responds to my inquiry. Right now I am not holding my breath. Clearly there are issues of some sort.
 
exodious said:
The point is that if these people really are that dangerous that they can't be allowed to have a gun, then they shouldn't be out amongst us because it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep them from having a gun. So these various rules and prohibitions etc. just serve to make life difficult for the rest of the law abiding.
Click to expand...

I understand your point now, and agree. Unfortunately it is yet another failing of our "system" that allows sometimes dangerous individuals back on the street, while busting the balls of others for petty crap like having a magazine that holds 12 rounds, or a barrel that is 15 3/4".
 
Justin said:
I must be that ****ed up. No I'm not simply saying they should have their gun rights restored. I'm saying that they should have *ALL* their rights restored, which considering the definition of the word "All" would include their gun rights.

Overcrowding -- not having every little thing be illegal would probably help with this.

Released on a technicality -- They need to have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, if they don't, tough shit. You can call it a technicality all you want. If there is a shaky eyewitness, or someone didn't follow the chain of custody because they were too busy spanking it on duty.. that's too damn bad. Better luck next time.


If the penalty for murder in state X is 25 years, and the convict serves 25 years and then gets out, he should be a FREE man. Maybe the word free means something different to you than it does to me (and webster's dictionary). I'm not arguing that someone that commits murder, rape or some other hideous crime deserves anything other than life or the firing squad. However, if they served the penalty they were given, then I think their rights should be restored. They should be able to vote, they should be able to own guns, etc.

Perhaps the penalties for these crimes are too low (which I think they are). Perhaps the person should be locked up and throw away the key, or take them out back and put a round in their head old yeller style.
Click to expand...

I also see your point here, thanks for clarifying. I think we are mostly on the same page here in that it is a failing of the system which as it stands now is far too lenient, yet petty at the same time.
 
mark056 said:
There has been a lot of thread drift about the restoration of rights to convicted felons etc. I think maybe we should get back to the original thrust of the thread. This morning I sent the following email to Corporate and also cc'd the Shooting Sports Center. My email text follows along with the out of office reply that I got from the Shooting Sports Center. This, on the face of it, appears to be more than a simple inventory issue.

First, my email:

For the last decade or so Smith and Wesson has enjoyed a resurgence and renewed confidence among American Shooters, has developed exciting new products and is winning back the LE market share.

Currently the Shooting Sports Center is closed and IDPA competition has been canceled for the month of May. No real explanation has been forthcoming from either the Shooting Sports Center or Corporate. The internet is rife with all kinds of rumors and speculation, some of it really "out there."

A simple explanation or press release would be helpful at this time, not only to keep the general public informed but investors (of whom I am one) apprised of the current situation. Not to do so, is a public relations gaffe which will only intensify as the internet really takes off with speculation. Let's not see a return to the 1990's when S&W reached an all time public relations low.

Thank you for your consideration in this matter.

Mark Louttit
Leominster, MA

The out of office reply from the Shooting Sports Center:

The Smith and Wesson Shooting Sports Center will be closed until further notice.

It will be interesting to see if corporate responds to my inquiry. Right now I am not holding my breath. Clearly there are issues of some sort.
Click to expand...

Mark, you are right about the thread derail, sorry about that, as I was part of that by taking exception to some remarks earlier.

That is an excellent letter. Hopefully someone from corporate will see it, and respond appropriately because what you said is very true about rumors spreading on the internet, and how dangerous that can become for any company if not kept in check. Please keep us updated either in this thread, or with a separate one.
 
Does anybody know why the S&W range / company store was closed or is all this speculation just BS?

Oh, are they open again?

smitty
 
I've been shooting at S&W since the very first days I received my permit here in CT decades ago. Yep, we used to bring our stuff to Springfield, shoot, and drive home without any issues back then. Believe it or not, I also received my training for high-power Garand competition shooting there. They have a 100 yard basement range with 4 positions and a retired SWAT member from Holyoke taught us how to shoot the Garand properly.

Back then you would buy a bronze, silver, or gold membership depending on how much you visited. It was a tight-run ship but not so tightly run that it was uncomfortable. Over the years I lost interest in shooting there for a few reasons, mainly because of the clientele who were my neighbors. Don't know why but it just seems that a lot of rabble would come in and it was so distracting because they didn't know which end was up and the range officer was constantly with them while I was in the next lane.

I've stopped going there for one reason: the grey area about the legality of a CT resident hauling their equipment to a MA facility without the benefit of a sanctioned meet. Early on the S&W guys said that if you are ever challenged about that, we were supposed to tell the LEO to call them and they would verify your membership and that would be that. Now, however, that's not an option and I've been told by a few people that they've seen MA LEOs sitting in their idling cars near the S&W training center possibly watching for CT plates. I've also been told by a Chicopee LEO that that's not the case but he couldn't be positive. He tends to be pretty level headed but maybe not representative of other MA LEOs when it comes to out of state guys with firearms. So, rather than test the waters I've simply stopped going there since not one person at S&W could confirm or deny the situation. IT would be sad if that range were closed to the public. I know that a lot of classes for the pros are held there and the 'fancy shooters' practice there. Something has to change, however, and they really have to tighten up their system.

Rome
 
turbo38gn said:
As of 7pm last night, they were closed... kinda worried, I have 2 guns on layaway there...
Click to expand...

Only 2 Jack? you're slipping! LOL! I would imagine that if someone had items on "layaway" at the shooting center and they were to shut down that you could always call the factory and they could help you.
 
Cabinetman - there is no ambiguity with MA law. You have to be going to a shooting competition or you are breaking the law. Sucks but true. Its also always been that way.

A good friend of mine and I started going there right after it was renovated/built and it Chuck and Judy Wooley used to run classes there. They were great people, as was Brent Perucker, who taught me how to reload a revolver properly as a left handed person. (Brent was left handed, but right eye dominant, an interesting combination ) We were regulars at the IDPA events and RO'd the first "Winter National" in 1998.

My friend lives in Enfield, about 1/2 mi from the MA border. He had a membership there for years, but got tired of the 6 month process, with a trip to boston to renew his 1 year non-resident permit. He's very risk averse and actually consulted an attorney about the legality of coming into MA just to shoot, without a permit and was told there was no ambiguity. The law has specific carve-outs and just going shooting is not one of them.

I guess I'm trying to convey that I've got a long history there. I've taken a number of classes there. I'm happy to see S&W under american ownership. If memory serves me right they were owned by Thomkens of the UK when they made the deal with the Clinton admin.

I got to know Ken Jorgensen, the Marketing Director through IDPA. He is a good guy (and currently in charge of marketing at SR)and really earned his money after the Clinton deal.

Its a great site with a great history, much of it in the last 20 years. It will be sad if the place does not re-open.

Don
 
KirkVN said:
Only 2 Jack? you're slipping! LOL! I would imagine that if someone had items on "layaway" at the shooting center and they were to shut down that you could always call the factory and they could help you.
Click to expand...

thanks Kirk, yep, I'll give it a week... hey.. shot my 4" 500 saturday... first time since last year... it was great, 50 yds we were hitting around the bullseye!! off hand!!! and scared!!1 [smile]
 
KirkVN said:
[laugh] but it's a "good" kinda scared huh? [laugh]
Click to expand...

Oh yaaaa.... it was goooooood .. [smile] I musta been in a "meek" frame of mind the 1st time I shot it.. it hurt and I felt kinda weak.. that wasn't the case sat... I think I'm all pumped up now with my new 458 Socom AR about ready to hit the range... I feel pretty secure, a 500SW hanging on my side and a 458 Socom slung on my shoulder.. expensive ammo, but NP when only one shot is needed... no matter what!! [grin]
 
S&W has issued the following:

"Due to a number of business and infrastructure factors which include planned upgrades, we are electing to keep the SSC closed on a temporary basis. This closure applies to the general public, current members, law enforcement, IDPA members, VIP’s (without prior approval) and all Smith & Wesson employees. The closure will remain in effect until further notice. We anticipate a mid-summer opening.

During the coming months we will reassess the entire operation to assure alignment with our core business objectives and we plan to open as a private facility with a renewed purpose intent on supporting our commitment to the shooting sports industry. Our plans will encompass continued access to License-To-Carry (LTC) and other training programs as well as FirstShots®, IDPA events, Scout activities, Hunters Education classes and others."
 
Well, sounds to me that they will from now on be a "members only" range, and no longer open to the general public.

I can understand why they would want to do this, and I guess I'm OK with it.

I'm just curious what they are are going to do about the current members who will no be able to use the facilities while they get things straightened out. I mean, we paid good money to get a membership there, and they are saying now that it could be several months before they reopen? I paid for a yearly membership, and now for probably a quarter of that year I will not even be able to use it. Not especially happy about that.
 
Anyone with S&W contacts.... I've been trying to find out of the scheduled May 12 Handgun techniques class is still happening. Anyone know?
 
It sounds to me as they are shut down... period.. until further notice. I am confident that us current members will be reimbursed in some fashion, we just have to be patient. I will like to know about the guns I have on layaway, but I am sure it will be addressed sooner than later. I have Agawam RC and Westfield Sportsman, no sweat off my butt.. plenty of ranges to play at.. definitely not the end of the world.... yet.. [grin]
 
Woodstock said:
During the coming months we will reassess the entire operation to assure alignment with our core business objectives and we plan to open as a private facility with a renewed purpose intent on supporting our commitment to the shooting sports industry. Our plans will encompass continued access to License-To-Carry (LTC) and other training programs as well as FirstShots®, IDPA events, Scout activities, Hunters Education classes and others."
Click to expand...

So it will no longer be an open to the public, pay by the hour. I suppose it could end up being open to paying members, but it sounds as though it will only be open for organized activities.
 
M1911 said:
So it will no longer be an open to the public, pay by the hour. I suppose it could end up being open to paying members, but it sounds as though it will only be open for organized activities.
Click to expand...

It sounds like they might be going the way of the Sig Sauer Academy in Eppling, NH (I have taken classes both there and at S&W). The retail pro-shop at Sig Sauer is open to the public, but the rather extensive range facilities are strictly for classes.
 
mark056 said:
It sounds like they might be going the way of the Sig Sauer Academy in Eppling, NH (I have taken classes both there and at S&W). The retail pro-shop at Sig Sauer is open to the public, but the rather extensive range facilities are strictly for classes.
Click to expand...

I have also taken courses at both. Unless things have changed, S&W just hasn't been serious about their courses for a long time.
 
I just got the official layoff notice from S&W yesterday. I am no longer a S&W employee. My First shots class on May 9th. yesterday was canceled and all classes after the LTC on May 13 are canceled. I was told to keep in touch if things change and that the Shooting Centers may or may not reopen, the Shooting Center's fate has not been decided.
 
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