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Sig P320 lawsuit , unintentionally discharging

drgrant said:
The whole thing is even weirder because MSP ditched sig a number of years ago because they were whining about a lack of responsiveness in support. [rofl]
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I have seen that first hand. Since Sig got the M17/M18 contract its only gotten worse. They are almost at HK levels of "you suck and we hate you"

The reason so many PDs are still going with Sig is if a Department wants Red Dots, (and everyone does) Sig will sell you a turn key gun with a red dot installed and a warranty on all of it.

Everyone else, the red dot has to be installed on the gun by somebody, either the Distributor (If they will agree to it) or the Department Armorer. Most Police Armorers dont want to/cant install red dots on hundreds or thousands of guns.
 
cathouse01 said:
In any properly designed system, tolerance Stacking should not result in a system failure. Tolerance stacking is a well know manufacturing issue and any properly designed system will take it into account. If the P320 unintentional discharges are the result of simple tolerance stacking, that actually is a major design flaw and should be readily identifiable and corrected. I would lean more to the "Swiss Cheese Model" of accident causation, where several things need to align (like the holes in separate pieces of Swiss cheese) for the unintentional discharge to occur. A combination of the firearm, the specific holster it's in (and it might be a flaw in that specific holster that exposes a weakness in the gun), the way the holster is carried and the actions and accelerations of the individual. Not to say that Sig shouldn't be able to design around this, but it's not necessarily that simple of a problem to fix.
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You got me thinking. Not all proper holsters are the same. Some might be more worn out than others. Maybe one used holster becomes more flexible than others a little looser at times
 
Cap'n Mike said:
It looks like the officer to the right smacks the butt of the holstered gun or the butt of the holstered gun smacks his wrist just as the bald officer bends down to grab the suspects legs.
You can see it at the .06 second mark.
Leaves the possibility open that the trigger could have been somehow pulled inside the holster.
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Open youtube.
Turn video.speed to 0.25x , put it to 0:13 , the officers hand Does Not move at all.
 
Qwikdraw45 said:
That's part of the thing about striker-fired guns. Everyone scoffs at a manual safety on them. I would prefer a manual safety (yes, they can fail) as an added feature since all of the ones I have used have had lighter trigger pulls. I can just see something getting into the trigger guard area (if soft holster), or clothing. I have had clothing get caught while re-holstering firearms if not done super carefully.

That being the case, I think everyone should give up their P320's, especially those in MA. Send me your 10 round magazines, since you will no longer need them. [smile]
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Safety is a layered thing. You have multiple redundant layers in case another safety rule gets violated. All of my pistols have thumb safeties, just because I want the manual of arms to be similar to the 1911s I carry. Thumb safeties also provide a second backup in case something happens.
 
I imagine that there are some shooters here that use P320's in competitive shooting. If so they probably have dedicated high speed holters for their pistol. The majority of these AD with the P320 I have read about are with LE duty or off duty holsters, and I think we all know that not all (vast majority are not) officers are "gun" guys. I have seen too many situations of ill-fitting, poorly designed duty holsters for these pistols. Many of these AD's have been due to poor holster/reholstering and some foreign object getting into the trigger guard. Again I think only time will tell what the culprit is. Sig has demonstrated in many of these instances that the flaw was not with their pistol.
 
Dench said:
Now people will start with the "something was stuck in the holster" routine.
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I mean at some point or another you have to give some of these people the benefit of the doubt there were some cases I was very skeptical of but now I'm seeing this on video it's like okay so there is a legit problem here and I doubt it's a case where oh a shitload of people are ordering the wrong holster for their handguns or something.
 
Although I own other sigs, I sold that pos. Sig knew it wasn’t drop safe and continued to put profits ahead of the safety of its customers instead of issuing a recall. There is absolutely no question the tolerances in the milling process and engineering on that firearm were incorrect/unsafe.

If you don’t want kids- carry a 320!
 
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drgrant said:
I mean at some point or another you have to give some of these people the benefit of the doubt there were some cases I was very skeptical of but now I'm seeing this on video it's like okay so there is a legit problem here and I doubt it's a case where oh a shitload of people are ordering the wrong holster for their handguns or something.
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The big problem with Sig and this gun is they deny deny deny. I get why. Don't get me wrong. But then the fans started with it. Deny deny deny. Then they fixed a gun that they originally said didn't have a problem till they did. And then they are still having problems.

I justy don't get it. If Glock started making hunks of shit I'd be the 1st one bashing on them. But they usually don't. Sure, they do make the occasional turd here and there that slipped by QC, but that's definitely not what is going on with this pistol.

The most crazy part is the army adopted this thing ontop of it. Ugh. Granted the army requirements for it's pistol program were stupid in the 1st place. They even had Glock make a model with a saftey on it, gross.
 
Malibru said:
I imagine that there are some shooters here that use P320's in competitive shooting. If so they probably have dedicated high speed holters for their pistol. The majority of these AD with the P320 I have read about are with LE duty or off duty holsters, and I think we all know that not all (vast majority are not) officers are "gun" guys. I have seen too many situations of ill-fitting, poorly designed duty holsters for these pistols. Many of these AD's have been due to poor holster/reholstering and some foreign object getting into the trigger guard. Again I think only time will tell what the culprit is. Sig has demonstrated in many of these instances that the flaw was not with their pistol.
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Lol where have they demonstrated that? If it exists that testimony is buried in a court case and not necessarily something that's been made public by the company. In a lot of cases I'm sure they just paid the money with a gag order attached in a settlement to make the person go away.

I think there are legitimate problems with this gun but I also think that there's a fog here that's caused by shitty users having NDs caused by other things.... that's confusing the issue.

The thing is as much as you guys want to blame holsters or whatever I mean what gives with the frequency? I've read a bunch of these and some of the appendices are pretty telling like there's a dude f***ing sitting in a cop truck and the gun fires while in the holster....

Sure there could be holster problems but I would think that whoever is supplying the holsters would have bulletins or directives about this sort of thing. Where are the lawsuits against the holster manufacturers or the distributors that supplied the holsters? Oh wait they're not getting sued because it's probably not their fault...
 
Dench said:
The big problem with Sig and this gun is they deny deny deny. I get why. Don't get me wrong. But then the fans started with it. Deny deny deny. Then they fixed a gun that they originally said didn't have a problem till they did. And then they are still having problems.

I justy don't get it. If Glock started making hunks of shit I'd be the 1st one bashing on them. But they usually don't. Sure, they do make the occasional turd here and there that slipped by QC, but that's definitely not what is going on with this pistol.

The most crazy part is the army adopted this thing ontop of it. Ugh. Granted the army requirements for it's pistol program were stupid in the 1st place. They even had Glock make a model with a saftey on it, gross.
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Ironically I think that we don't hear about NDS in the Army (or with the m17 in general) because of the safety.... the P320's safety likely immobilizes all the fire control parts when engaged.... so when that safety is on it's going to block the striker or whatever from moving even if something else is defective.
 
drgrant said:
Lol where have they demonstrated that? If it exists that testimony is buried in a court case and not necessarily something that's been made public by the company. In a lot of cases I'm sure they just paid the money with a gag order attached in a settlement to make the person go away.

I think there are legitimate problems with this gun but I also think that there's a fog here that's caused by shitty users having NDs caused by other things.... that's confusing the issue.

The thing is as much as you guys want to blame holsters or whatever I mean what gives with the frequency? I've read a bunch of these and some of the appendices are pretty telling like there's a dude f***ing sitting in a cop truck and the gun fires while in the holster....

Sure there could be holster problems but I would think that whoever is supplying the holsters would have bulletins or directives about this sort of thing. Where are the lawsuits against the holster manufacturers or the distributors that supplied the holsters? Oh wait they're not getting sued because it's probably not their fault...
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What I would love to see is the rate of police ND in general, the rate of police ND specific to the P320, the rate of police ND for non-P320 striker fired guns. Until you can see aggregate data like this, it is very hard to conclude the problem is the P320. Police have NDs. The result of the NDs is modified duty, demotion, firing. As a result, there is significant motivation to find a way to blame anyone other than the officer for the ND. Hell, they never call them NDs...

Yes the P320 had a specific problem where if struck at exactly the right angle with enough force after enough wear, the gun would go off. But I am yet to see real evidence that the P320 has more NDs than comprable guns when handled by the police. Call me a skeptic. Supply me with data and I will gladly stop being skeptical.
 
drgrant said:
Ironically I think that we don't hear about NDS in the Army (or with the m17 in general) because of the safety.... the P320's safety likely immobilizes all the fire control parts when engaged.... so when that safety is on it's going to block the striker or whatever from moving even if something else is defective.
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the main reason we probably aren't seeing this in the army is the amount of time that a pistol is carried loaded is going to be extremely limited. like a single digit percentage of time in that pistols overall lifetime.

We couldn't put a round in the chamber on our rifles or pistols until we were about to shoot someone. And even then I can think of a small amount of times we got riled up enough to rack a round in the chamber.
 
CrackPot said:
What I would love to see is the rate of police ND in general, the rate of police ND specific to the P320, the rate of police ND for non-P320 striker fired guns. Until you can see aggregate data like this, it is very hard to conclude the problem is the P320. Police have NDs. The result of the NDs is modified duty, demotion, firing. As a result, there is significant motivation to find a way to blame anyone other than the officer for the ND. Hell, they never call them NDs...

Yes the P320 had a specific problem where if struck at exactly the right angle with enough force after enough wear, the gun would go off. But I am yet to see real evidence that the P320 has more NDs than comprable guns when handled by the police. Call me a skeptic. Supply me with data and I will gladly stop being skeptical.
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Don't get me wrong I think I substantial portion of these ND claims are complete and utter bullshit but there are way too many occasions like the one shown in the video in this thread that have been documented in other court cases where the gun literally just fired while being in a holster. Either the fire control system in the gun is unstable or the holster actually actuated the trigger somehow.

I think cops doing stupid things with guns is clouding the issue. Of course a huge % of NDs are going to be from, well, negligence. It's obvious that the P320 has some kind of design/qc/manufacturing problem but nobody really wants to talk about it either that or the holster manufacturers don't know how to make holsters for the gun properly. Or it could be a combination of both but nobody wants to talk about that stuff because it's an elephant in the room.
 
I still cringe at departments that are stupid enough to allow their officers to use the Sherpa as a duty holster with striker fired guns.
 
drgrant said:
Lol where have they demonstrated that? If it exists that testimony is buried in a court case and not necessarily something that's been made public by the company. In a lot of cases I'm sure they just paid the money with a gag order attached in a settlement to make the person go away.

I think there are legitimate problems with this gun but I also think that there's a fog here that's caused by shitty users having NDs caused by other things.... that's confusing the issue.

The thing is as much as you guys want to blame holsters or whatever I mean what gives with the frequency? I've read a bunch of these and some of the appendices are pretty telling like there's a dude f***ing sitting in a cop truck and the gun fires while in the holster....

Sure there could be holster problems but I would think that whoever is supplying the holsters would have bulletins or directives about this sort of thing. Where are the lawsuits against the holster manufacturers or the distributors that supplied the holsters? Oh wait they're not getting sued because it's probably not their fault...
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Well, with the Montville, CT police incident Sig has showed using stills from the video that the pistol was not actually seated in the duty holster, and retention hood was not secured. The photos show the pistol is sticking out of the holster. So in that scuffle in the lobby when they thrash around the pistol/holster and movement could have caused that discharge. In my mind it at least casts enough doubt since it wasn't properly holstered. Just one man's opinion.
 
Malibru said:
I imagine that there are some shooters here that use P320's in competitive shooting. If so they probably have dedicated high speed holters for their pistol. The majority of these AD with the P320 I have read about are with LE duty or off duty holsters, and I think we all know that not all (vast majority are not) officers are "gun" guys. I have seen too many situations of ill-fitting, poorly designed duty holsters for these pistols. Many of these AD's have been due to poor holster/reholstering and some foreign object getting into the trigger guard. Again I think only time will tell what the culprit is. Sig has demonstrated in many of these instances that the flaw was not with their pistol.
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there was a USPSA shooter who had one go off in the holster. He was instructed to load and make ready. Chambered a round, holstered it in a race style holster, and had his hands on his head when it discharged. Knocked the scales off his pocket knife when the bullet hit it before deflecting.
 
I can't believe we're still arguing about this. Take a CEO with a history of cutting corners in favor of profits (he ran Kimber into the ground) and some shady gun running history (he hid from the Germans that the guns they were helping him build were for Columbians, with whom Germany doesn't trade - again, profits above all else), and put him in charge of another company - why is anyone surprised that the new company suddenly starts making turds? The issues with the P320 have been extensively documented by now; you have to be the most dedicated fanboy to continue to pretend that the guns are fine. Read some of the lawsuits that Sig has settled, they're very eye opening.
 
groundscrapers said:
there was a USPSA shooter who had one go off in the holster. He was instructed to load and make ready. Chambered a round, holstered it in a race style holster, and had his hands on his head when it discharged. Knocked the scales off his pocket knife when the bullet hit it before deflecting.
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Lucky, as many are, to not be injured when it happened. Glad to hear of this one, this lends more credibility to the argument imho that the gun fired on it's own. I feel that the uspsa shooter is probably a much better benchmark than the average officer. Most simply are not firearms experts and in some cases are less than proficient. That race holster probably has very little chance of activating the trigger compared to a duty holster. As drgrant says, cops doing stupid things (understatement) clouds the issue and of course they will say "it just went off on it's own!" as their defense every time.
 
JDL said:
I must be a fan-boy I have a p320 x5 leagion never a AD or any other problems. This is a really nice pistol and like any tool it must be handled safely and with respect. Think table saw and fingers.
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The problem is rare. Another problem is Sig refuses to honestly address the issue.

When you have a problem that can result in the immediate death of a person and a company who is refusing to correctly address it.... what are we talking about here? Handling it with "saftey and respect?" It's a defective handgun that can rarely fire on it's own. That's not ok. At all. In any capacity.
 
JDL said:
I must be a fan-boy I have a p320 x5 leagion never a AD or any other problems. This is a really nice pistol and like any tool it must be handled safely and with respect. Think table saw and fingers.
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Most people will never have a problem, an ND, or ever shoot themselves with a P320.

It's obvious this problem is bordering on statsitically insignificant. That doesn't mean it never happens.

That said, like if you're one of those people with the guns in the 0.25% out of a million guns though... might have a different view of things. (or whatever the similarly small
fractiojn is).

The problem with this is even if the odds are infinitesmally small, having an unforced safety failure with a number greater than zero is bad regardless of the
sample size.
 

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