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Scratch one scumbag

May 8, 2005
In the Great Smoky Mountains
Feedback: 31 / 0 / 0
Preliminary reports are the guy London police smoked this morning was one of the bombers from yesterday.

I saw a witness account who said the officer was carrying a handgun.

I'm curious if anyone knows what kind of weapons London PD use when they use them
Nickle said:
I don't know about what handguns they use, but I see pictures of them carrying SA-80's, their equivelant to our M16A2/M4A1.

I had the opportunity to shoot the SA-80 when we were training with the Scots a few years ago. They all have red-dot optics on them and can't hold much of a group at 300 meters. Personally I didn't like them one bit.
I've never shot one, and I agree with you. I base my judgement on what the British soldiers think of them. It isn't good. I also don't like the idea of relying on optics in a hostile situation. At a minimum I want back-up iron sights. And I don't need optics for the first few hundred meters, anyways.
The Metropolitan Police (London) have more manditory range time for their officers than most US departments. They train on pistol, shotgun and carbine. Their "SWAT" teams carry MP-5's, side arms, shot guns and normaly have at least one sniper with them. For a department that generaly does not carry firearms, they are very well trained for when they do.
They "cried" as you put it due to so many waepons, tanks, machine guns etc being left behind at Dunkurk. (oh, and during WWI the US was crying to England and France for tanks and aircraft. It goes both ways)
I'll agree that it went both ways. I'm only concerned that they haven't learned their lesson, like the US has. Tanks were brought to fruition during WW1, and effective ones weren't really made until we were in the war. Believe it or not, the true inventor of the "tank" (the concept anyways), was Robert E. Lee, who ordered the arming of trains during the Civil War. The term "Tank" was coined by the British as a subterfuge. It was built by the Royal NAVY.
Armoured trains saw use during in the 19th century in the American Civil War (1861?1865), the Franco-Prussian War (1870-1871), the Boer Wars (1880-81 and 1899-1902), and the First (1914-1918) and Second World Wars (1939-1945). The most intensive use of armoured trains was during the Russian Civil War (1918-1920). There are also reports of a limited use of armoured trains in the Second Chechen War (1999-).

During the Boer War on 15 November 1899, Winston Churchill, then a war-correspondent, was travelling onboard an armoured train when it was ambushed by Boer commandos. Churchill and many of the train's garrison were captured, though many others escaped, including wounded placed on the train's engine.

I just think that they went the other way when it comes to how to handel crime with firearms... just look at DC. No where else in the US are their stricter gun laws and yet there are more deaths from firearms there per capita than anywhere else. (Look, I am a member of the NRA and the NY rifle and Pistol Ass. I agree with some gun laws NOT ALL. I don't want you to think I am some kind of wuss!)

And for a country that has strong gun laws (enough that English Gun clubs now got to other countries to shoot) their Police are very well armed and exceptional well trained in firearms.
On the Brit's training, the US should pay attention.

The Brit's and the German's have well trained, professional LEO's. The US is hit and miss. Federal LEO's (ATF isn't LEO to me) are good. State Police's are generally good. "Local Yokels" are hit and miss. There seems to be some really good LEO's here, and some really bad ones. Probably more from individual pride (and lack of), than from any training.

I've actually found a correlation between gun control and crime. The more gun control you have, the more crime. And yes, I believe it actually is caused that way, it's not a coincidence. There are few gun laws I agree with. My state has very few, and they are enough to handle crime.

No CCW Permit required. Why punish Concealed Carry? Punish the crime of the use of the firearm, not the possession of it. Pull it out and wave it around in a crowd in VT, and they'll drag you off for Reckless Endangerment. Got a good reason to draw it? That falls under the "Neccisity Defense", and usually won't be investigated, let alone prosecuted. Prosecute the crime, not the weapon, just like treat the illness, not the symptom.
I have shot with quite a few PD's. Over the past 14 years quite a few of the Marines in my plt were LEO and the worst pistol shots were always LEO. State Police (NY, NJ and CT) local cops (NY, CT), NYPD. With that being said, we had one Marine who was a cop in Danbury CT and he could shoot!
Ya know...it's rather embarrassing. I mean, it hasn't been all that long since the Brits have been armed and here they are - 5 shots, 5 hits. We have LEO's who go through hundreds of rounds and only a very small percentage hit the mark. And this is the USA! :(
One of the students at the Randy Cain course was an officer on the Nashua PD. He was on the line next to me. Believe you me, he is pretty darn good with a handgun.
Reports from BBC are leaking that the British Police now have a "shoot to kill" order. They are no longer trying to hit the chest or abdomen because of the chance of explosives on suicide bombers.

The guy was wearing a bulky jacket and was leaving a house that is under suspicion.

Suggestion: When in London, DO NOT wear layers. If you can, just wear a bra/undershirt (depending on your sex or what you're into, not naming names) and nothing else... I don't want to get capped in the skull.
Just heard not long ago that they may have killed an innocent - at least that's what was on WRKO news at 4PM.

If that's the case, then I'm sorry for his family. However, if they have a shoot to kill order, and this guy was proof of that, then it may give the BG's pause....then again...probably not. Zealots just do it, they don't think.
M1911 said:
One of the students at the Randy Cain course was an officer on the Nashua PD. He was on the line next to me. Believe you me, he is pretty darn good with a handgun.

Yes, but he is the exception by far in LE circles! :(
LenS said:
M1911 said:
One of the students at the Randy Cain course was an officer on the Nashua PD. He was on the line next to me. Believe you me, he is pretty darn good with a handgun.

Yes, but he is the exception by far in LE circles! :(

Why limit your comment to LE? The evidence shows that LEO's are several times more likely to shoot the good guy or an innocent bystander by mistake than the rest of us. Of course we aren't required to intervene in other people's business, which very frequently results in total confusion.

centermass181 said:
turns out he was a Brazilian electrician....legally in England for 3 years.

Too bad.


I haven't heard that yet. That's terrible. And honestly, if you're a suicide bomber, a "shoot to kill" order isn't going to dissuade you anyway, now is it?
I heard the report. The guy ran from the Bobbies and wouldn't stop. I don't know why he ran, but he sealed his own fate. SR, the "shoot to kill" order will definitely stop the terrorists, once they're shot. A criminal may not obey man's laws, but he has to obey the "laws of nature".
From what I had heard they're still trying to get the details straight. I think his visa had just expired so that obviously had him jumpy. They also haven't been able to verify if the initial officers that tried to stop him uniformed or plains clothes.

Terrible to hear either way.

Didn't he come out of a suspected and surveyed apartment that the bobbies had been watching for some time?

Plain clothes or not, if you're told to stop or freeze by an LEO, it's best to comply and not run away.
Just so you all know..... the only place that calls English cops "bobbies" is here in the US. Accross the pond they are called the same as here. Cops, police, pigs, etc.
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