S&W Indoor Champs Expensive Lesson Learned

[Lugnut]

All very good ideas/points Chris. Want to talk about slippery slop though...

At least one shooter was DQ's for not having their gun's safety functioning. I'm not talking about disabled, but just not functioning. Say a grip safety not functioning- hammer would drop without grip engaged for example. I can understand why in this case- not allowing a shooting to continue. Safety is paramount.

But... couldn't he have been allowed to fix it before continuing? It might not have been intentional. Seems reasonable. I don't know. And how would an SO know how to safety check all guns? Do they know how to check the FP plunger is working in a Glock? What if you need to break down a gun to check these things? If you can't check all gun's safeties- is it fair to check a 1911 which is "easier" to check?

The more I play and help out in these sports the more confusing it can get...

Jon,

I encourage you to write up your experience and submit the article to the IDPA magazine.

Perhaps a new status of "No Fault DQ" is in order to allow people who have a situation that technically results in a DQ, but is deemed not an overt act of the shooter to break the rules to continue the match for no score. At the very least the investment in time and money should be respected.

As for the shooter who was allowed to shoot based on the error in bullet weight, I feel it WAS the right call. But please note that if I did my math right, Jon was sent home for ammo that was less out of compliance than this other gentleman. Is THAT fair?

But it is a slippery slope. The real 'cheat' might start downloading factory ammo and reassembling it so that it just misses. How do you tell?

As for the "Club Rules" modifications, I support them 100% IF the spirit is to help shooters. I had a rule that basically said "Everyone shoots". Equipment violations meant your score didn't count - that's all. I could always correct holster issues with a table start, low ready, or some other method. If they had fun, we all succeeded. Everyone that I made exceptions for came back the next time in proper equipment. How many would have returned if I simply said "that's wrong, please go home."? Who does that help?

At a large match, I can easily see that not allowed, but at the local level - especially when you have a large mix of new shooters, lead by example, but allow them to participate if they run afoul of some equipment issue.

Would you DQ a one armed shooter because he can't run the Classifier as written?

That said, Safety issues are entirely another issue - I'm not referring to them.

For shooters that plan to attend a big match, I recommend always doing 3 things before you go:

1) Chamber check EVERY round. Take the gun apart and drop them into the chamber to make sure they fit properly. All it takes is one off loading to jam and ruin a great run.

2) Use equipment you KNOW meets the rules. Chrony is your friend. If you don't have one, ask around. I always had mine available if someone needed to check a load.

3) Don't change anything you do at a local match for the 'big one'. Stick with what you KNOW works.

 

[Underwhere]

All I know is that I want to make it out to this next year.

I would have liked to have been there, even if I shot horribly than to have been ineligible to participate like this year. (no sanctioned matches)

 

[IDPA_MM]

Did the shooter shoot himself?

I was outside the range that it happened in when it occured so I did not see the actual accident occur. I have been told that it happened while reloading/holstering between stages/strings of fire and yes the person struck was the current shooter at that time.

 

[Lugnut]

New England IDPA Regionals is at HSC this year... get your butt there and you'll be fine!! You missed a good match for sure.

All I know is that I want to make it out to this next year.

I would have liked to have been there, even if I shot horribly than to have been ineligible to participate like this year. (no sanctioned matches)

 

[IDPA_MM]

All very good ideas/points Chris. Want to talk about slippery slop though...

At least one shooter was DQ's for not having their gun's safety functioning. I'm not talking about disabled, but just not functioning. Say a grip safety not functioning- hammer would drop without grip engaged for example. I can understand why in this case- not allowing a shooting to continue. Safety is paramount.

But... couldn't he have been allowed to fix it before continuing? It might not have been intentional. Seems reasonable. I don't know. And how would an SO know how to safety check all guns? Do they know how to check the FP plunger is working in a Glock? What if you need to break down a gun to check these things? If you can't check all gun's safeties- is it fair to check a 1911 which is "easier" to check?

The more I play and help out in these sports the more confusing it can get...

A lot of the difference comes in the level of match that one is shooting.

I know that with the Smith & Wesson club matches we're a lot more forgiving about small things that we may see wrong with a shooter's equipment. We'll definitely tell a shooter if their mag holders, holster, etc... isn't in compliance with IDPA rules but we're not going to throw them out (unless it's a major safety issue).

However, when you get to a sanctioned match, and especially one that has been given the notoriety of being officially labeled a "National Championship", the enforcement of the rules has to be much more rigid. Especially when that match has had a couple of "integrity" issues in the course of its twelve or thirteen year history.

On the issue of grip safeties.... The only division where most guns will have them is CDP. The rule book is very specific about all safety devices being operable on all guns equiped with them. The grip and thumb safeties on a 1911 style gun are just the easiest to check. Especially since most SO's are not certified gunsmiths. Anyone who chooses to shoot a gun in SSP or ESP that has a grip safety does so because they want to, and at that point I feel considerably less sympathy if they're found to not have it operating.

 

[Lugnut]

IDPA_MM- I think you just confirmed what I was saying.... I think. The point is that some safeties are easier to check than others and most SOs aren't gunsmiths. I think I mentioned too that 1911s are easy to check but others aren't. So is that fair to 1911 shooters if the S) can't (and shouldn't IMO) be held responsible to check other guns like Glocks, Sigs, etc? I'm not referring to this match specifically, but in general.

I'm not trying to be a PITA about this... I just know that I'm helping run a sanctioned match and I want to make sure we do the best we can AND be fair to everyone. I think some of the rules make it... let's just say... difficult. The rules say all safeties must be functioning... yet it's a very challenging task to enforce these rules accross the board.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

USPSA Limits DQ to items which DISQUALIFY the member from further competition. An alternate sanction - "score does not count" is applied to anyone who fails to make minor power factor, and such people are allowed to continue with the match.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

They verified that the velocities would have been passing for a 130 grain bullet and made a decision that the shooter had been acting in good faith believing that the ammunition was 130 grain, and overturned our initial disqualification of the shooter.

I had a 200gw H&G#68 SWC weigh in at 192gr in Canada at an IPSC match and was bounced to minor. All of the other bullets weighted right on at 200, but the procedure at the time allowed a sample of 1. The stats person went out of his way to check the scale, show me the measurement, and make absolutely sure that I saw what he did. The rules being the rules, the minor scoring stood.

 

[IDPA_MM]

IDPA_MM- I think you just confirmed what I was saying.... I think. The point is that some safeties are easier to check than others and most SOs aren't gunsmiths. I think I mentioned too that 1911s are easy to check but others aren't. So is that fair to 1911 shooters if the S) can't (and shouldn't IMO) be held responsible to check other guns like Glocks, Sigs, etc? I'm not referring to this match specifically, but in general.

I'm not trying to be a PITA about this... I just know that I'm helping run a sanctioned match and I want to make sure we do the best we can AND be fair to everyone. I think some of the rules make it... let's just say... difficult. The rules say all safeties must be functioning... yet it's a very challenging task to enforce these rules accross the board.

I'll give you my personal beliefs on it. You might want to shoot an email off to Craig Buckland and have a dialogue with him about this sort of thing as well. I'm sure he'd be happy to discuss it with you.

Personally, I'd like to think that we can trust about 95% of the shooters at any match to be honest about the gun, holster, ammo, etc... that they're shooting. We check what we can reasonably check and hope that the honest people are being honest with the other stuff. Mag safeties, for example. I don't know of a Hi Power that still has an operational one, but it's not something I think really makes a difference in a match so it's not something I'd spend time trying to check. Mostly, I believe that if a shooter chooses to shoot a gun with a grip or thumb safety (which can be easily checked) then they need to make sure they work. It's really that simple. Nobody is FORCING them to shoot that type of gun. Just my $0.02.

 

[Lugnut]

Thanks for your response, I agree- most shooters are very trustworthy and try to do the right thing. Our MDs will and have been in contact with Craig and others. Thanks.

Personally, I'd like to think that we can trust about 95% of the shooters at any match to be honest about the gun, holster, ammo, etc... that they're shooting. We check what we can reasonably check and hope that the honest people are being honest with the other stuff. Mag safeties, for example. I don't know of a Hi Power that still has an operational one, but it's not something I think really makes a difference in a match so it's not something I'd spend time trying to check. Mostly, I believe that if a shooter chooses to shoot a gun with a grip or thumb safety (which can be easily checked) then they need to make sure they work. It's really that simple. Nobody is FORCING them to shoot that type of gun. Just my $0.02.

 

[IDPA_MM]

Thanks for your response, I agree- most shooters are very trustworthy and try to do the right thing. Our MDs will and have been in contact with Craig and others. Thanks.

You're welcome. I've got an opinion on everything.... just ask me.

 

[Gammon]

I'll give you my personal beliefs on it. You might want to shoot an email off to Craig Buckland and have a dialogue with him about this sort of thing as well. I'm sure he'd be happy to discuss it with you.

Personally, I'd like to think that we can trust about 95% of the shooters at any match to be honest about the gun, holster, ammo, etc... that they're shooting. We check what we can reasonably check and hope that the honest people are being honest with the other stuff. Mag safeties, for example. I don't know of a Hi Power that still has an operational one, but it's not something I think really makes a difference in a match so it's not something I'd spend time trying to check. Mostly, I believe that if a shooter chooses to shoot a gun with a grip or thumb safety (which can be easily checked) then they need to make sure they work. It's really that simple. Nobody is FORCING them to shoot that type of gun. Just my $0.02.

Mag safeties are a touchy subject as they can be an option from the manufacturer.

 

[Timberwolf]

Of course not, you'd give him a procedural and a “failure to do right” unless he could prove he didn't have the arm removed to gain a competitive advantage.

Respectflly,

jkelly

He would get a procedural but no FTDR as there would be no competitive advantage, which would be obvious.

Did the shooter shoot himself?

Respectfully,

jkelly

He's a friend of mine and he's OK. I have spoken to him as of yet.

All very good ideas/points Chris. Want to talk about slippery slop though...

At least one shooter was DQ's for not having their gun's safety functioning. I'm not talking about disabled, but just not functioning. Say a grip safety not functioning- hammer would drop without grip engaged for example. I can understand why in this case- not allowing a shooting to continue. Safety is paramount.

But... couldn't he have been allowed to fix it before continuing? It might not have been intentional. Seems reasonable. I don't know. And how would an SO know how to safety check all guns? Do they know how to check the FP plunger is working in a Glock? What if you need to break down a gun to check these things? If you can't check all gun's safeties- is it fair to check a 1911 which is "easier" to check?

The more I play and help out in these sports the more confusing it can get...

That was a S&W sponsored shooter - Doug Koenig - apparently the grip safty was worn out.

 

[jkelly]

He would get a procedural but no FTDR as there would be no competitive advantage, which would be obvious.

You know that was a joke, right.


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[IPSC_DRL]

Grip safety worn?

That was a S&W sponsored shooter - Doug Koenig - apparently the grip safty was worn out.

Yep, mine's the same way. Worn down by the judicial application of a file to the lower part of the leg.

I don’t think you can “wear one down” any other way.

 

[Lugnut]

Yep, mine's the same way. Worn down by the judicial application of a file to the lower part of the leg.

I don’t think you can “wear one down” any other way.

An honest man!! I was wondering the same thing!

 

[Lugnut]

Yep, mine's the same way. Worn down by the judicial application of a file to the lower part of the leg.

I don’t think you can “wear one down” any other way.

An honest man!! I was wondering the same thing! On the S&W- the grip safety does two things... prevents the trigger from dropping the hammer... and pushes the FP safety plunger up so it doesn't restrict the motion of the FP. I wonder what his didn't do...

 

[jar]

On the S&W- the grip safety does two things... prevents the trigger from dropping the hammer... and pushes the FP safety plunger up so it doesn't restrict the motion of the FP. I wonder what his didn't do...

A friend of mine had an SW1911 where the timing between the two was flipped. If you didn't fully depress the grip safety, it would drop the hammer but the FP would stay blocked. It cost him a few nice runs before he got it fixed.

I'd be kinda surprised if they tested the FP block. You'd either have to load live ammo or use the pencil trick. How extensive of testing do they do?

This is a concern for me, because I shoot a Hi-Power in ESP. It had no mag disconnect when I bought it. It would really suck to be DQ'd for it. There's no competitive advantage, and it makes the unload and show clear much easier and safer.

 

[Lugnut]

My S&W grip safety had done the same to me! When I didn't get a good grip on the gun... the hammer would drop... but no bang! Light or no strike... sucks because is usually happened when shooting low light or weak hand!

I don't know how extensive their testing was. But 1911s are easy to check the basics.

My limited understanding is the Hi-Power was available both with and without the disconnect. If you bought it without one I wouldn't worry. Same thing applies to the currect M&Ps... some have it and some don't. Only way to PROVE what you had was to call the mfr to check the config for that s/n... that won't happen at a match.

A friend of mine had an SW1911 where the timing between the two was flipped. If you didn't fully depress the grip safety, it would drop the hammer but the FP would stay blocked. It cost him a few nice runs before he got it fixed.

I'd be kinda surprised if they tested the FP block. You'd either have to load live ammo or use the pencil trick. How extensive of testing do they do?

This is a concern for me, because I shoot a Hi-Power in ESP. It had no mag disconnect when I bought it. It would really suck to be DQ'd for it. There's no competitive advantage, and it makes the unload and show clear much easier and safer.

 

[eisenhow]

My limited understanding is the Hi-Power was available both with and without the disconnect. If you bought it without one I wouldn't worry. Same thing applies to the currect M&Ps... some have it and some don't. Only way to PROVE what you had was to call the mfr to check the config for that s/n... that won't happen at a match.

Doesn't the (M&P) slide have a big warning on the ones without the magazine disconnect? It's not PROOF but it's a pretty good indicator.

 

[drgrant]

Doesn't the (M&P) slide have a big warning on the ones without the magazine disconnect? It's not PROOF but it's a pretty good indicator.

Only if you bought the version of the gun without the mag safety. If you bought the crappy SKU (and then say, later modified it) it won't have that rollmark on the side.

-Mike

 

[Lugnut]

Doesn't the (M&P) slide have a big warning on the ones without the magazine disconnect? It's not PROOF but it's a pretty good indicator.

So I replaced my slide and/or refinished it. Prove it didn't come without a disconnect.

 

[drgrant]

The other thing is on BHPs, a lot of BHP owners remove the mag disconnect nearly "As a matter of course". EG, this is pretty much a "normal" and
"accepted" modfiication among BHP owners... does that still violate "the rules" per se?

-Mike

 

[jar]

The rulebook prohibits: "Disconnection or disabling of any safety device on any gun." My argument would be that magazine disconnects are not a safety device. I think they're a danger device. My M&P has one and it's never made me any safer. It has however briefly tempted me to do stupid and dangerous things. When I clear it for dry practice, there's always a second's temptation to put the full mag back in the gun with the empty chamber. Any 'safety feature' which makes safe handling more difficult/annoying is a complete failure IMO.

 

[Chris]

Depends on if you call it a "Magazine Safety" or "Magazine Disconnect". (^_^)

 

[Lugnut]

Depends on if you call it a "Magazine Safety" or "Magazine Disconnect". (^_^)

Unfortnately it's a safety- whether or not we think it is. It prevents the discharge or a round in the chamber when one "may think" the gun is empty.

That being said- I think the only safety is your brain... and well... some folks don't have them either.

 

[Timberwolf]

My S&W grip safety had done the same to me! When I didn't get a good grip on the gun... the hammer would drop... but no bang! Light or no strike... sucks because is usually happened when shooting low light or weak hand!

I don't know how extensive their testing was. But 1911s are easy to check the basics.

My limited understanding is the Hi-Power was available both with and without the disconnect. If you bought it without one I wouldn't worry. Same thing applies to the currect M&Ps... some have it and some don't. Only way to PROVE what you had was to call the mfr to check the config for that s/n... that won't happen at a match.

The other thing is on BHPs, a lot of BHP owners remove the mag disconnect nearly "As a matter of course". EG, this is pretty much a "normal" and
"accepted" modfiication among BHP owners... does that still violate "the rules" per se?

-Mike

The rulebook prohibits: "Disconnection or disabling of any safety device on any gun." My argument would be that magazine disconnects are not a safety device. I think they're a danger device. My M&P has one and it's never made me any safer. It has however briefly tempted me to do stupid and dangerous things. When I clear it for dry practice, there's always a second's temptation to put the full mag back in the gun with the empty chamber. Any 'safety feature' which makes safe handling more difficult/annoying is a complete failure IMO.

The only way around the mag disconnect on a BHP, is to use a nazi marked frame. They were built without the disconnect.

Page 18 of the rule book covers is, as stated by jar.

 

[eisenhow]

So I replaced my slide and/or refinished it. Prove it didn't come without a disconnect.

Which is why I said it WASN'T proof. I have to check but I think it's engraved so you have to do more than just "refinish it".

Edit: I finally found a picture of one with the warning (mine don't have it since they both came with the magazine disconnect). It looks like it's laser etched?? not engraved. Looks like it would disappear if you refinished it.

 

[eisenhow]

Only if you bought the version of the gun without the mag safety. If you bought the crappy SKU (and then say, later modified it) it won't have that rollmark on the side.

-Mike

Isn't that what I said???