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S&W Indoor Champs Expensive Lesson Learned
- Thread starter JGreen
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When you go to a major match, or even a lesser match for that matter, the shooter needs the 6 P's - PRIOR PREPARATION PREVENTS P*SS POOR PERFORMANCE.
In the rule book pages 27 and 28 cover the requirements for ammunition including the chronograph.
B. Ammunition.
Metal piercing, incendiary and tracer ammunition are prohibited.
In cases where metal targets are used which may be damaged by
28
excessive penetration, the club conducting the contest may prohibit
cartridges that may damage the equipment.
1. Power Floor.
The goal is to compete with “service type” ammunition, not light
target ammunition. Therefore, the following minimum power
floors will be in effect:
SSP - 125,000
ESP - 125,000
CDP - 165,000
ESR - 165,000
SSR - 125,000
Calculate power floor by multiplying the bullet weight by the
muzzle velocity. You will need a chronograph to verify muzzle
velocity.
2. Official Chronograph Procedure
Chronograph three (3) rounds at a distance of ten (10) feet using a
gun of MAXIMUM barrel length for the DIVISION of the same
gun type. If two (2) of the three (3) rounds exceed the power floor,
the competitor is in compliance. Prior to each shot, the muzzle of
the gun should be elevated to move the powder charge to the rear
of the case, thus giving the competitor every chance to achieve
maximum velocity.
Should the competitor’s ammunition fail to meet the power floor,
the competitor will have the option to chronograph three (3)
additional rounds through his gun.
If there is any question as to the bullet weight, a bullet should be
pulled and weighed using a powder scale. Any competitor whose
ammunition fails to meet the minimum power floor will be
disqualified from the entire match and receive a DNF score.
"Any" didnt mean all. That is the lousy part. I dont get why some people got to shoot when they didnt make PF and Jon went home.
"Any competitor whose ammunition fails to meet the minimum power floor will be disqualified from the entire match and receive a DNF score."
"Any competitor whose ammunition fails to meet the minimum power floor will be disqualified from the entire match and receive a DNF score."
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That depends on what stage the shooters on when they got the his ammo for testing.
I was the ammo nazi at the 2008 Nationals along with Dan Burwell. It takes more time than you realise to chrono. You require a pistol in each caliber plus revolvers in each caliber.
There did appear to be some confusion regarding the actual procedure being used at the match. This was the first time I had my regular factory ammo chronoed, so I was trying to remember the rule book. I was asked by the chrono team which gun I wanted to them to use - my Sig 226 (4.4" barrel) or their Glock 34 ( 5.32" barrel") ? According to the rules as quoted above, I should not have been given the choice. I opted, correctly, to have them shoot my ammo from a gun with the maximum barrel length for my division, rather than through my Sig. It was fine.
There was a shooter in my squad who had the three rounds fired through his gun first and failed to meet power floor, rather than through the range gun. He was DQ'd. He may have been okay if they had used the correct procedure and use the range gun first... we'll never know.
I am just curious what the MD is going to tell Jon when he asks why some folks who "flunked" got to shoot the rest of the match. I know that some folks in the Thursday AM got sent home and I know one shooter with us did not. Jon was in the Thursday PM and went home.....
I have no issue with the rules just think they should be consistent, yes?
Agreed. However I will say this- I wouldn't want to be MD at a match like this. You can't believe all the crap you have to deal with.
There are always going to be issues at matches, you just can't prevent all of them. I appreciate all the effort the team put into this- I felt bad for the SOs/staff that worked several 12 hour days... some not even able to complete their shooting. Thanks for all your efforts.
Some of our IDPA group (not part of this match) will be using some of these things as learning experience to take with us into our matches.
Like I said- I have a BIG issue with IDPA for someone being sent home for something other than a safety issue or serious unsportsmanlike conduct.
As one of the safety officers who was running the Chrono/Equipment stage at this match, maybe I can shed some light on a couple things.
Jon, we all felt really sorry about what happened. Even more unfortunately you were by no means the only person that Dave, Paul and I call friends who we had to do it to over the course of the week. There were somewhere around a dozen people who failed some portion of the Chrono/Equipment check. There was one gun that didn't fit into the IDPA box. There were three or four that failed to make weight. We had to DQ two shooters on Saturday for non-functional grip safeties. The rest were ammunition that failed to make power factor. Some of that was, like Jon's situation, commercial ammunition that failed to make the required velocity. Some of it was handloads that didn't make it.
The shooter who was "allowed to continue shooting after disqualified for ammunition" as mentioned earlier in this thread, was not disqualified. The Range Master and Match Director did an intense inspection of the ammunition the shooter was using, determined that it had been bought as 130 grain ammunition in good faith and since the velocities measured would have passed as 130 grain ammo was not disqualified. They were however informed that they may wish to find another brand of ammunition and distributor for it before their next major match.
There were also four Safety disqualifications. One for breaking the 180 degree line. One for walking out of a range with a loaded gun. Two for drawing and loading a firearm without being under the direction of a Safety Officer.
It is NEVER easy to tell a shooter they're DQ'd. Trust me, I ruminated and fussed over some of the things we had to do during the course of the week and I'm generally one of those people who believes that "The Rule is the Rule" and there should be no exceptions. Part of the reason we were so unrelentingly strict this year is that in past years there have been some "integrity" issues at this match and the Match Director and staff wanted to make sure that there were none this year. I think maybe we shocked a whole lot of people with how far we went to that extent this year, but there was a reasoning for it and most of the response to it has been very supportive.
Again, Jon all three of us hated having to do what we did. We hope to see you at the match again next year (BTW - Winchester White Box 115gr. 9mm makes PF very easily) and at WPRC during this coming year.
Scott Marks
Jon, we all felt really sorry about what happened. Even more unfortunately you were by no means the only person that Dave, Paul and I call friends who we had to do it to over the course of the week. There were somewhere around a dozen people who failed some portion of the Chrono/Equipment check. There was one gun that didn't fit into the IDPA box. There were three or four that failed to make weight. We had to DQ two shooters on Saturday for non-functional grip safeties. The rest were ammunition that failed to make power factor. Some of that was, like Jon's situation, commercial ammunition that failed to make the required velocity. Some of it was handloads that didn't make it.
The shooter who was "allowed to continue shooting after disqualified for ammunition" as mentioned earlier in this thread, was not disqualified. The Range Master and Match Director did an intense inspection of the ammunition the shooter was using, determined that it had been bought as 130 grain ammunition in good faith and since the velocities measured would have passed as 130 grain ammo was not disqualified. They were however informed that they may wish to find another brand of ammunition and distributor for it before their next major match.
There were also four Safety disqualifications. One for breaking the 180 degree line. One for walking out of a range with a loaded gun. Two for drawing and loading a firearm without being under the direction of a Safety Officer.
It is NEVER easy to tell a shooter they're DQ'd. Trust me, I ruminated and fussed over some of the things we had to do during the course of the week and I'm generally one of those people who believes that "The Rule is the Rule" and there should be no exceptions. Part of the reason we were so unrelentingly strict this year is that in past years there have been some "integrity" issues at this match and the Match Director and staff wanted to make sure that there were none this year. I think maybe we shocked a whole lot of people with how far we went to that extent this year, but there was a reasoning for it and most of the response to it has been very supportive.
Again, Jon all three of us hated having to do what we did. We hope to see you at the match again next year (BTW - Winchester White Box 115gr. 9mm makes PF very easily) and at WPRC during this coming year.
Scott Marks
If the gentleman you were shotting with is who I believe you were shooting with.... he was NOT Disqualified from the match. There was a significant question about his ammunition. After reviewing the physical ammunition, the velocities, and other information the Range Master (Frank Glover) and the Match Director (Craig Buckland) determined that he had in good faith believed the bullets were 130 grain, not 125 (as they weighed). The initial DQ was OVERTURNED and the shooter was allowed to continue shooting, for score.
When pulled the bullet weighed less than the manufacturers stated weight. The box they came out of said 130 grains. The velocities (which I don't remember off the top of my head) passed if the bullet was 130 grains but did not if the bullet was the weight we had found with the scale. The ammunition was not a major name brand and had been bought through a discount source from what the shooter told the MD and RM. After inspecting the ammunition, the MD and RM made the determination that in their minds the ammunition WAS factory ammo and that it had come out of the box the shooter claimed it had. They verified that the velocities would have been passing for a 130 grain bullet and made a decision that the shooter had been acting in good faith believing that the ammunition was 130 grain, and overturned our initial disqualification of the shooter.
If you get and make your loads per a reloading book or buy them based on what's on the side of the carton... under PF is under PF.
On a lighter note... one SO (not at the chrono) gave me crap for my loads. He said something like what the heck kind of rounds are you firing... they're way too hot! I was at 185 PF (165 needed for CDP)... I didn't want to leave any margin for error!
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
Also- thanks for you time and effort at the match!
As I said, that was the decision of the Range Master and the Match Director.
On a lighter note... one SO (not at the chrono) gave me crap for my loads. He said something like what the heck kind of rounds are you firing... they're way too hot! I was at 185 PF (165 needed for CDP)... I didn't want to leave any margin for error!
You're not the only one. I saw some 9mm yesterday making over 1300 fps (duty ammo) because people were going to make darn sure they passed.
You're welcome. All the SO's are slightly mentally challenged. We're all sore, tired and going "NEVER AGAIN!!!" right now. Give up 8-12 weeks and with our short-term memory issues we'll be right back at it again next year (Hopefully).
You're Welcome. As much of a pain and stress as it is for those of us who work the match, we do enjoy it. Whether it's on some sado-masochistic level
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
or because we get to see our old friends and make new friends I'm not totally sure, but if we didn't enjoy it we wouldn't keep doing it.Since I enjoy a good punch in the face once in a while; why don't you all come bowling pin shooting this Friday at MVGC and stop worrying about PF. Just shoot the heaviest thing you can handle and see what falls over. Okay, once I'm down nobody do any kicking, I bruise easy.
JGreen
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Congratulations to all the new competitors that participated in the 2009 S&W Indoor IDPA Championships. Now you understand why it is one of the most respected IDPA matches in the world! More importantly, thanks to Craig Buckland for putting the “skipper’s” hat on and all the Safety Officers and support staff that gave so much of their blood, sweat and tears to pull it off!
My original post placed the blame of my DQ solely on me. I put the Silver Bear Ammo in my bag. Was I pissed I got DQ’d? Folks, I have enough certificates on my wall and have run my share of major and minor matches in multiple disciplines to know better than to walk into a big league game without being 100% prepared! Hell, more than anything I was embarrassed to have my peers; my friends see that I failed the equipment test. That I was not prepared! I have learned a tough lesson.
It’s nice to win, but more than anything for me, it’s about pulling the trigger! OK, so I don’t get scored but it never crossed my mind that I would not be able to shoot these incredible courses of fire! I’m an SO. I can read the rules. DISCRETION! Match Directors have it. When I was not allowed to shoot, I was stunned and then pissed. The decision had been made. Several of you had stated that the rules are the rules. The fact of the matter is that competitors were not treated equally. Several were DQ’d and still got to shoot.
When I heard that a DQ was not necessarily a DQ, I pm’ed Craig Buckland the Match Director and asked for an explanation. Craig took the time after an exhaustive week plus to write me explain that others did in fact shoot after failing the equipment inspections. The Match Directors regret not allowing me to continue to shoot. I regret not putting the 3 boxes of Blazer in my bag and stopping to get a few more. I have great respect for them and look forward to thier leadership in future IDPA major matches.
For me, this matter has been resolved. For those of you that feel as though IDPA is not about pulling the trigger with great friends well…….I think your just wrong. IDPA does want you and the 2nd Amendment needs you!
My original post placed the blame of my DQ solely on me. I put the Silver Bear Ammo in my bag. Was I pissed I got DQ’d? Folks, I have enough certificates on my wall and have run my share of major and minor matches in multiple disciplines to know better than to walk into a big league game without being 100% prepared! Hell, more than anything I was embarrassed to have my peers; my friends see that I failed the equipment test. That I was not prepared! I have learned a tough lesson.
It’s nice to win, but more than anything for me, it’s about pulling the trigger! OK, so I don’t get scored but it never crossed my mind that I would not be able to shoot these incredible courses of fire! I’m an SO. I can read the rules. DISCRETION! Match Directors have it. When I was not allowed to shoot, I was stunned and then pissed. The decision had been made. Several of you had stated that the rules are the rules. The fact of the matter is that competitors were not treated equally. Several were DQ’d and still got to shoot.
When I heard that a DQ was not necessarily a DQ, I pm’ed Craig Buckland the Match Director and asked for an explanation. Craig took the time after an exhaustive week plus to write me explain that others did in fact shoot after failing the equipment inspections. The Match Directors regret not allowing me to continue to shoot. I regret not putting the 3 boxes of Blazer in my bag and stopping to get a few more. I have great respect for them and look forward to thier leadership in future IDPA major matches.
For me, this matter has been resolved. For those of you that feel as though IDPA is not about pulling the trigger with great friends well…….I think your just wrong. IDPA does want you and the 2nd Amendment needs you!
+1 and well said Jon!!!!
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This my friends is why we all shoot USPSA instead!!! We care more about the competitors than the rules!!! If you're being safe and you're shooting USPSA and for some reason your equip. isn't appropriate for the division you're shooting in etc. we aren't sending you home. We'll either scrounge up the gear for you and just let you finish the match.
Chalk that up with the tactical reload... HAHA
Pete
Chalk that up with the tactical reload... HAHA
Pete
I disagree with Pete a bit. That isn’t true about the rules. You break a rule in USPSA, the outlined consequences from the book follow. You always follow the book, local match, National matches, whatever. There are no “club” rules, special club scoring, and the rules apply to everyone the same. “Caring” about the competitor isn’t really part of it, yet giving the benefit of doubt to the shooter sure is.
Also, you can talk about Jon’s experience without out it being one of those repetitive USPSA vs IDPA messes. It has nothing to do with USPSA. Further, to other posters, you didn’t have to be there to form an opinion and make a point. It isn’t a personal attack to point out how some rules don’t make sense and are overly heavy-handed, or that the discretion that inhabits IDPA rules is disagreeable to some competitors. We’re entitled to our opinion. I’d like to think that pointing out what some of us disagree with might cause positive changes. The “stay away from IDPA, we don't want you” mentality doesn’t do anything positive. The MD, Jon, and the people that put this stuff on, even old 9x21, are good people that are great to shoot with. That has nothing to do with and doesn't change by pointing out some disagreement with the game.
Also, you can talk about Jon’s experience without out it being one of those repetitive USPSA vs IDPA messes. It has nothing to do with USPSA. Further, to other posters, you didn’t have to be there to form an opinion and make a point. It isn’t a personal attack to point out how some rules don’t make sense and are overly heavy-handed, or that the discretion that inhabits IDPA rules is disagreeable to some competitors. We’re entitled to our opinion. I’d like to think that pointing out what some of us disagree with might cause positive changes. The “stay away from IDPA, we don't want you” mentality doesn’t do anything positive. The MD, Jon, and the people that put this stuff on, even old 9x21, are good people that are great to shoot with. That has nothing to do with and doesn't change by pointing out some disagreement with the game.
hedgehound
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Jon, I am afraid Russian ammunition is not exactly a model of consistency, especially in non-traditional Russian calibers.
On a lighter note... one SO (not at the chrono) gave me crap for my loads. He said something like what the heck kind of rounds are you firing... they're way too hot! I was at 185 PF (165 needed for CDP)... I didn't want to leave any margin for error!
Wow, then that guy would shit his pants if I showed up with my bowling pin loads.... they're easily over 200 PF.
![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
And those are just the "warm" ones. (230 gr FMJ going about 895-900 FPS or so. ) -Mike
Chris
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Jon,
I encourage you to write up your experience and submit the article to the IDPA magazine.
Perhaps a new status of "No Fault DQ" is in order to allow people who have a situation that technically results in a DQ, but is deemed not an overt act of the shooter to break the rules to continue the match for no score. At the very least the investment in time and money should be respected.
As for the shooter who was allowed to shoot based on the error in bullet weight, I feel it WAS the right call. But please note that if I did my math right, Jon was sent home for ammo that was less out of compliance than this other gentleman. Is THAT fair?
But it is a slippery slope. The real 'cheat' might start downloading factory ammo and reassembling it so that it just misses. How do you tell?
As for the "Club Rules" modifications, I support them 100% IF the spirit is to help shooters. I had a rule that basically said "Everyone shoots". Equipment violations meant your score didn't count - that's all. I could always correct holster issues with a table start, low ready, or some other method. If they had fun, we all succeeded. Everyone that I made exceptions for came back the next time in proper equipment. How many would have returned if I simply said "that's wrong, please go home."? Who does that help?
At a large match, I can easily see that not allowed, but at the local level - especially when you have a large mix of new shooters, lead by example, but allow them to participate if they run afoul of some equipment issue.
Would you DQ a one armed shooter because he can't run the Classifier as written?
That said, Safety issues are entirely another issue - I'm not referring to them.
For shooters that plan to attend a big match, I recommend always doing 3 things before you go:
1) Chamber check EVERY round. Take the gun apart and drop them into the chamber to make sure they fit properly. All it takes is one off loading to jam and ruin a great run.
2) Use equipment you KNOW meets the rules. Chrony is your friend. If you don't have one, ask around. I always had mine available if someone needed to check a load.
3) Don't change anything you do at a local match for the 'big one'. Stick with what you KNOW works.
I encourage you to write up your experience and submit the article to the IDPA magazine.
Perhaps a new status of "No Fault DQ" is in order to allow people who have a situation that technically results in a DQ, but is deemed not an overt act of the shooter to break the rules to continue the match for no score. At the very least the investment in time and money should be respected.
As for the shooter who was allowed to shoot based on the error in bullet weight, I feel it WAS the right call. But please note that if I did my math right, Jon was sent home for ammo that was less out of compliance than this other gentleman. Is THAT fair?
But it is a slippery slope. The real 'cheat' might start downloading factory ammo and reassembling it so that it just misses. How do you tell?
As for the "Club Rules" modifications, I support them 100% IF the spirit is to help shooters. I had a rule that basically said "Everyone shoots". Equipment violations meant your score didn't count - that's all. I could always correct holster issues with a table start, low ready, or some other method. If they had fun, we all succeeded. Everyone that I made exceptions for came back the next time in proper equipment. How many would have returned if I simply said "that's wrong, please go home."? Who does that help?
At a large match, I can easily see that not allowed, but at the local level - especially when you have a large mix of new shooters, lead by example, but allow them to participate if they run afoul of some equipment issue.
Would you DQ a one armed shooter because he can't run the Classifier as written?
That said, Safety issues are entirely another issue - I'm not referring to them.
For shooters that plan to attend a big match, I recommend always doing 3 things before you go:
1) Chamber check EVERY round. Take the gun apart and drop them into the chamber to make sure they fit properly. All it takes is one off loading to jam and ruin a great run.
2) Use equipment you KNOW meets the rules. Chrony is your friend. If you don't have one, ask around. I always had mine available if someone needed to check a load.
3) Don't change anything you do at a local match for the 'big one'. Stick with what you KNOW works.
Wow, then that guy would shit his pants if I showed up with my bowling pin loads.... they're easily over 200 PF.
-Mike
Spoken like a true pin man. (I just now learned how to use this highlight feature. Only been a year. Next I gotta learn to post pictures)
Of course not, you'd give him a procedural and a “failure to do right” unless he could prove he didn't have the arm removed to gain a competitive advantage.
Respectflly,
jkelly
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