If he had to stop shooting, that was a DQ.
-
If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
S&W Indoor Champs Expensive Lesson Learned
- Thread starter JGreen
- Start date
If he had to stop shooting, that was a DQ.
I understand that.... and that is what happened. But if you read the rule I quoted... it says disqualified... and DNF. Regardless- my point is it's BS rule IMO. Guy pays $125 to shoot and gets sent home because his commercial ammo didn't make PF. I don't care what IDPA says- the shooter would continue in my match. No scores would be posted but he'd shoot the day... and tape, pick up brass with his friends...
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2007
- Messages
- 6,022
- Likes
- 757
Damn.
That sucks Jon.
It's quite a hike out to Springfield.
I'm wondering what my Remington UMC would Chrono at.
That sucks Jon.
It's quite a hike out to Springfield.
I'm wondering what my Remington UMC would Chrono at.
Jon - that is so bad I can't even begin to say how sorry I am. You are a great example of what sportsman should be in the way you always act. To have this happen to you has taken the shine off the event for me.
![[hmmm]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/009.gif "Hmm [hmmm]")
At major matches the rules have to be followed to a T. even locally the same should be done. I have seen rules bent or broken locally that screwed shooters at majors. I have seen rules broken for shooters that gave them a huge benefit. All in the name of being nice and trying to have fun.
we all agree the rule suck, what needs to be done is for the issue to be escalated up the chain.
There is an issue with one of USPSA's rules, which is being escalated... hopefully it will get changed
A class winner at the nationals is not guaranteed a spot at the next nation. But Area (only your Area) winners are
I am disapointed you couldnt "audit" the rest of the match. We had a gentleman in our squad (15) that didnt make chrono and he was allowed to finish the day. He had a box of ammo that was not what it said it was. Sounds like a similar deal to yours.
JGreen
NES Member
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2005
- Messages
- 1,887
- Likes
- 702
JGreen
NES Member
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2005
- Messages
- 1,887
- Likes
- 702
Rather than get all bent out of shape, I've pm'd the MD to ask if someone else got DQ'd and was still able to shoot the match.
The MD is a good guy and IDPA savy. I be surprised by the above.
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2005
- Messages
- 47,526
- Likes
- 33,542
That is not a rule, but a policy. Yes, there is a difference - slot policy is not part of the rulebook, but is a separate board adopoted policy.
The main problem with the "Class winner" concept is that the slots have to come from somewhere. We could get some from the presidential allotment, but I would be reluctant to require the president to give up 18 of his 20 slots for a three division match (L/P/R). One other possible approach is to create a "first available slot" procedure for these folks (ie, they get offered returned slots before they are made available on the public waiting list, and at the "awarded slot" price (a $25 discount off the waitlist price). Based on history, this would mean they always get slots if they want them.
I'd be interested in hearing what USPSA members think of this idea before the March 7-8 board meeting in Dallas.
louzy
I agree that you couldn't shoot the match for a score, but to take your money abd not let you shoot without a score is kinda crappy.
they shoudl have a the least give you a refund..
JimB
I agree that you couldn't shoot the match for a score, but to take your money abd not let you shoot without a score is kinda crappy.
they shoudl have a the least give you a refund..
JimB
Okay, so now I'm feaking out wondering if my Federal American Eagle 9mm 124g is going to be okay. Like you JG, it never occured to me to have to chrono factory ammo - I always assumed it was for reloads. After all, IDPA is about using standard gear. How the heck would have thought about chronoing factory ammo. I didn't !!!
Has an action shooting league or organization ever been proposed or tried where all of the targets are heavy knock down type so that bullet PF rules would not be needed? Either use enough gun or the target stays put? Easy to score with no worry of what's enough PF beforehand. Targets would be calibrated, of course, so that one match to another the force needed to take them down would remain the same. Maybe have just two divisions: Minor, PF under 180 or so, and Major, PF above 180. Essentially a game that divides .38s and .40s from 10mm and .45. I don't shoot IDPA or USP whatever, largely because they have become overburden with rules. I hear all the time on this site about guys getting confused when going back and forth between shooting types and not having the right guns for the specific shoot, etc. Maybe we need a new start, something more along the lines of what Jeff Cooper and Ray Chapman envisioned 40 years ago; use a heavy gun and make it simple simple.
Why don't the match participants make their displeasure known? The shooter deserves a refund and an apology. Let the MD know that such heavy handed tactics won't be tolerated. After reading these posts I will never shoot in one of his matches.
It isn't an MD issue, it is a rule book issue. It is a National Championship match, the MD and all the SOs have to follow the rule book across the board. Doesn't make it right, but it is out of their hands.
Exactly, the mark of a good MD or SO is that they follow the rules of the sport. There seems to be a lot of noise from the peanut gallery here. From people who don't shoot IDPA. People who have no clue what they are talking about. First of all why are you reading this post, it doesn't apply to you? Second, stay away from IDPA, we don't want you.
Virtually all U.S. made factory 9mm easily makes power factor. I have tried them all and chrono'd most of them. No offense Jon, but you were using cheap foreign crap.
One guy said that dozens of posts ago. I think everyone who says Jon should have been allowed to shoot for no score has a point and I agree with them. If the rulebook prohibits this, the rulebook should be changed. FWIW I am an IDPA shooter though I've only shot one sanctioned match so far.
TY43215
NES Member
I was not going to comment except for the fact I was truly sorry for the DQ. Jon gives a lot to the sport and it is too bad.
Now my comment: I shot my first S&W Winter match in 1999. This match, although it had excellent stages, was a rip off for the fee they charged. Very poor organization.
As the person I quoted here knows, I have always been a very strong supporter of IDPA. This match and my last major have come very close to convincing me to leave the sport for many reasons. When I pay in excess of $100 in fees, another $100 in expenses, I expect to get what I pay for. The half day format and other things have ruined what was one of the premier matches in the season. I won't go back unless some big changes are made.
Jon DQ'd, I walked out at 1830hrs with 6 stages left to shoot because I drive alone and had a 2.5hr ride that ended up to be 3hrs. I will stop here because I am still too pissed to post politelty.
One addition though, The IDPA Rule Book states all sanctioned matches will be on a cold range. How did they get around that rule? Really done now.
![[angry]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/008.gif "Angry [angry]")
Edit to add: The person with 20 posts telling people IDPA doesn't want them needs to revisit the sport. I will match my commitment to this sport to his any day and will also tell him IDPA is always looking for new shooters. Your comments are out of line. I may disagree with some of the posts here but they have a right to an opinion. These little pissing contests really grate on me.
Last edited:
I think you are taking this the wrong way, I have always encouraged new shooters to come and try the sport. What I was referring to here was the people who were bashing IDPA, the match, the MD and everything and everyone else. They weren't at the match, they don't know the rules and they aren't expressing an opinion, they are making judgments on a situation they don't know the full extent of the details. And if that is the case then I really don't think they should be in the sport. I was referring to one or two people, not every poster in this thread.
TY43215
NES Member
Well sir/madam, you chose to speak for me with this quote: (emphasis added by me)
Until recently, I wanted them to come. Now I suggest they try it but be open.
I shoot or have shot with many that posted here and know their biases as far as IDPA. They have tried it, don't like it, so be it. I still welcome anyone who wants to shoot and anyone with an opinion to play the game and to comment in a discussion.
Next time you post something like I quoted above, change it to
and speak for yourself.
I am out of this because it may turn into a game of Semantics. Sorry to piss on your thread Jon.
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2008
- Messages
- 234
- Likes
- 5
Once your DQ'd, for any reason, you are finished shooting. This is in IDPA and IPSC.
Gammon:
Why would you get a rufund when you came to a match with inferior ammo?
Who's fault is that? The Match Director's or the Shooters?
Last edited:
9X21
Banned
more lessons from the S&W Winter Nationals
I too learned an expensive lesson yesterday,
Prepare better for a GREAT match!
I left early & took the a DNF because of work the next day. Yes, the match ran over time, but it was because of the folks planning the match were trying to give us shooters everything they could for a challenging & interesting match: Great props, lots of movers, busy work to do before you could just shoot, etc, etc......
It reminded me of the old Miller invitationals or recent A.W.A.R.E. matches, only IDPA style.
My lessons learned were:
Take it more seriously.
Practice IDPA things like reloads, flash light & stuff like that.
Sign up for AM squad or better yet, take the next day off too, so I can finish late PM & have a few beers with the rest of my squad.
As for the orginal poster, sorry for your DQ, but the rule book is free with your paid membership or free to all, on line at:
http://www.idpa.com/
READ IT!
I have read it several times and I couldn't anything about disregarding it because you don't agree with it or think it's unfair. (found nothing in USPSAs's rule book like that either).
The MD and SO's should need no defending. As a wise man told me,
The shooter is making history, the SO is just recording it.![[shocked]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/007.gif "Shocked [shocked]")
If you say you spent the time & preperation to go to a big match, and your ammo makes sub minor, well.....................better plan a little harder next time.
Many thanks to all the SO's and S&W for putting on what I thought was a GREAT pistol match. I have shot many big matches in my time, that was a good one.
I'll be back next year, ready to finish![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
I too learned an expensive lesson yesterday,
Prepare better for a GREAT match!
I left early & took the a DNF because of work the next day. Yes, the match ran over time, but it was because of the folks planning the match were trying to give us shooters everything they could for a challenging & interesting match: Great props, lots of movers, busy work to do before you could just shoot, etc, etc......
It reminded me of the old Miller invitationals or recent A.W.A.R.E. matches, only IDPA style.
My lessons learned were:
Take it more seriously.
Practice IDPA things like reloads, flash light & stuff like that.
Sign up for AM squad or better yet, take the next day off too, so I can finish late PM & have a few beers with the rest of my squad.
As for the orginal poster, sorry for your DQ, but the rule book is free with your paid membership or free to all, on line at:
http://www.idpa.com/
READ IT!
I have read it several times and I couldn't anything about disregarding it because you don't agree with it or think it's unfair. (found nothing in USPSAs's rule book like that either).
The MD and SO's should need no defending. As a wise man told me,
The shooter is making history, the SO is just recording it.
If you say you spent the time & preperation to go to a big match, and your ammo makes sub minor, well.....................better plan a little harder next time.
Many thanks to all the SO's and S&W for putting on what I thought was a GREAT pistol match. I have shot many big matches in my time, that was a good one.
I'll be back next year, ready to finish
As MD I would refund the entry fee of a competitor who failed the chrono with factory ammo. You have to realize that some competitors don't reload and have to rely on factory ammo. Shooters who don't reload are not likely to own chronographs so the chrono at the match is the only feed back they get. Personally, I am amazed that factory ammo failed to make minor caliber. This is the first I have ever heard of such a failure.
The last time I checked the USPSA rule book, the only DQ that put you out of the match was unsafe gun handling. I am not familiar with IDPA rules.
It all comes down to whether or not you want your sport to grow. You are dealing with a competitor who spent a lot of money to shoot your match and made a good faith effort to comply with the rules, but failed through no fault of his own. I would refund the entry fee knowing that this money will be returned many times over through the positive PR generated. You choose to accuse the competitor of using "inferior ammunition" and keep his money. I believe that this is a very narrow minded and short sighted poicy.
One addition though, The IDPA Rule Book states all sanctioned matches will be on a cold range. How did they get around that rule? Really done now.
Well... here is exactly what the rule book says:
"Matches sanctioned by IDPA are required to have Cold ranges. A cold
range is defined as a range where all shooters must be unloaded
unless under the supervision of a SO. Unless your club has a
policy of a HOT range, all firearms should be unloaded except
when on the firing line."
I think MA attorneys must have wrote much of this rule book. Seems very ambiguous... at least to me. Cold, maybe, hot... Define "supervision"? We were all required to stay in an area that was well supervised while hot. Not sure if S&W's policy dictated this... either way- that was a minor issue to me.
Either way- I applaud the SOs and everyone involved in organizing this match... many of you can't comprehend all the work and commitment involved in running this. I understand we all pay good money and are paying customers... but the SOs and organizers get nothing and without them we we would have NO ONE to pay to play. There were some seriously awesome stages at this match... amazing work.
That being said I think IDPA needs to get going and clarify/fix a bunch of things....
Similar threads
