S&W Indoor Champs Expensive Lesson Learned

[JGreen]

I had my first DQ ever today at the S&W Indoor IDPA Championships. My factory ammunition failed the chronograph test.

The ammunition in question was Silver Bear 9mm 115gr FMJ. I opened a brand new case last night because I only had 3 boxes of Blazer left and did not want to mix ammunition.

My Glock 17 has always functioned perfectly with this stuff. No problems whacking plates or bowling pins at club level matches.

So I spent $125 in match fees and $50 in child care costs only to shoot 1 of the 14 great stages! On top of that, I had to wait for the match to finish because my passenger Dale was also shooting the match.

I'm not a gamer (not that there is anything wrong with that) so it never occured to me to chronograph factory ammunition.

Enough said.

 

[Supermoto]

Going sub minor is a DQ?... they didn't let you shoot for no score?

 

[JGreen]

Going sub minor is a DQ?... they didn't let you shoot for no score?

I asked. The MD said rules say a DQ is a DQ.

 

[Cross-X]

I'm sorry for you loss.

That's a crap sammich for sure!

 

[Ray-500]

I had my first DQ ever today at the S&W Indoor IDPA Championships. My factory ammunition failed the chronograph test.

The ammunition in question was Silver Bear 9mm 115gr FMJ. I opened a brand new case last night because I only had 3 boxes of Blazer left and did not want to mix ammunition.

My Glock 17 has always functioned perfectly with this stuff. No problems whacking plates or bowling pins at club level matches.

So I spent $125 in match fees and $50 in child care costs only to shoot 1 of the 14 great stages! On top of that, I had to wait for the match to finish because my passenger Dale was also shooting the match.

I'm not a gamer (not that there is anything wrong with that) so it never occured to me to chronograph factory ammunition.

Enough said.

That, my friend, is truly a bummer. I sincerely am sorry this happened to you. When opening a brand-new case of ammo, one would expect it meets the standards. Being DQ on top of the case cost is a double bummer. Sorry.

 

[Admin]

they didn't let you shoot for no score?

That is a bunch of crap. Sorry to hear you got dicked around Jon, that sucks.
DQ is a DQ but they should have at least let you shoot the entire match.

 

[Supermoto]

I'm surprised its a IDPA rule. Its still all about having fun. Unless its a safety issue.
Tough lesson to learn...

Always chrono loads before a bg match and bump up atleast 5pf.

 

[jkelly]

Jon,
Bad break, what was the ammo's PF.


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[JGreen]

Jon,
Bad break, what was the ammo's PF.


Respectfully,

jkelly

Don't know. Hence the problem I suffered.

 

[jkelly]

Jon,
I thought they would tell you, bummer!

Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[bpm990d]

I'm surprised there was no way to purchase ammo that would make the cut or that no one had extra ammo. I don't know any thing about the IDPA rules, but if they didn't let you at least shoot out of contention, they should refund your money. If they don't refund your entry, I would NEVER shoot a match that that particular director runs EVER again.

B

 

[JGreen]

Jon,
I thought they would tell you, bummer!

Respectfully,

jkelly

I'm sorry, they did. I believe it was 1090 or so ( I don't have a rule book handy) My rounds were coming in 70+fps below.

The MD had the SO's fire my rounds through his Glock 34 and double checked the chrony for accuracy.

 

[szaino]

Not letting you at least shoot for fun is absolutely ridiculous. Sorry to hear that.

I'm shooting Saturday and just loaded up my range bag with Atlanta Arms 9mm 147g subsonic, which is what I used there last year as well as other chrono'd shoots.

And, even knowing it should pass, I was paranoid if it didn't pass what I would do. If I had a bigger range bag I would probably put a back-up supply of my Rem UMC 115g.

 

[Ray-500]

I'm surprised there was no way to purchase ammo that would make the cut or that no one had extra ammo. I don't know any thing about the IDPA rules, but if they didn't let you at least shoot out of contention, they should refund your money. If they don't refund your entry, I would NEVER shoot a match that that particular director runs EVER again.

B

Am definitely NOT saying this is the case, but is there a possibility the match sponsor was trying to sell/push their own ammo? Sort of, "Buy our ammo and there's no problem"? Grin, can't help the investigative mind.

 

[Supermoto]

I'm sorry, they did. I believe it was 1090 or so ( I don't have a rule book handy) My rounds were coming in 70+fps below.

The MD had the SO's fire my rounds through his Glock 34 and double checked the chrony for accuracy.

1090 would have made it. your rounds were probably running 1000fps

 

[szaino]

To achieve the Min power factor of 125,000, 115 gr would have to be traveling a minimum of 1086.9.

If you were 1090 you should have been ok. It wouldn't hurt to check with them to make sure someone didn't do the math wrong...stranger things have happened.

Then you'd get a reshoot!!!

 

[bpm990d]

Am definitely NOT saying this is the case, but is there a possibility the match sponsor was trying to sell/push their own ammo? Sort of, "Buy our ammo and there's no problem"? Grin, can't help the investigative mind.

I'm sure a full retail price huh? How much ammo was required for all the stages?

B

 

[Chuck Z]

Sorry this happened to you Jon but not surprised. A 115 gr 9mm bullet needs to 1087fps to make pf. Out of my M&P 9 the three velocities I got from WWB were 1083, 1117, and 1105. One round didn't pass. Competitors - when you get to the chrono ask them to use the Glock34 if your barrel is shorter than 5 inches. You might need the extra velocity from the longer barrel.

 

[Gammon]

I can't believe you weren't allowed to shoot the match just for score. These people ought to have a little more consideration for the shooter.

 

[GTOShootr]

Jon, That is horrible. I don't know IDPA rules as well as other organizations but in general that is unheard of to, first, refer to the going subminor as a DQ, and second, to not allow the competior to continue shooting for no score. A DQ is a safety or sportsmanship issue. Going subminor with factory ammo is an equipment malfunction. You paid for the match, you broke no safety rules, and were a good sport. What reason would there be to not let you shoot the match? That infers that you did something wrong, that you cheated.

In short, I'm not a fan of the chrono "stage". People that want to cheat them can, those that do there best to do it right can get screwed. Plus, who likes to hear, "Make sure it is unloaded and hand your gun over to me".

What was the procedure for the chrono? Was a pulled bullet weighed? If so, was there a second chance to weigh a bullet?

 

[PMD]

That doesn't sound right - unless it is a specific IDPA or Range facility rule.
Come on an give USPSA a try

 

[Timberwolf]

Is Silver Bear a remanufacturer? If so, you should NEVER go to a match without running a new lot through the chrono, as the variations from batch to batch is too great. They use the same components as we do.

If you haven't got enough of what you would normally go with (PPP on your part) then go and get Winchester White Box.

I doubt that it was 1090fps, because that will give you a PF of 125.350 - just over minimum.

 

[Supermoto]

That doesn't sound right - unless it is a specific IDPA or Range facility rule.
Come on an give USPSA a try

Should the competitor’s ammunition fail to meet the power floor,
the competitor will have the option to chronograph three (3)
additional rounds through his gun.
If there is any question as to the bullet weight, a bullet should be
pulled and weighed using a powder scale. Any competitor whose
ammunition fails to meet the minimum power floor will be
disqualified from the entire match and receive a DNF score

IDPA needs to change the rule. No one intends to go subminor, especially with factory ammo. To not allow you to shoot is unsportsmanslike of the organization

 

[IPSC_DRL]

Sometimes bad things happen to good people. I feel for you Jon.

 

[GTOShootr]

Well, the IDPA rules are IDPA rules. Does't make them anywhere close to right though.

Even running your ammo over a chrono at home is making significant assumptions. Different conditions, different scale, different chrono. Then you have to assume everything is performed correctly. There is enough variability for a great reading at home to be not good enough at the match. Literally, a squirt of oil in the chamber could have made the difference between another great match experience and being grouped with cheaters. Chrono "stages" need to be approached with caution.

The chrono should be used as a scoring tool. Make it and get scored properly, don't make and not get scored at all. That is punishment enough. How does sending anyone home for anything other than being unsafe or unsportsmanlike help the sport?

Everytime I start to get the feeling that IDPA guys are nice enough to put aside my reservations about the organization, I see something like this that straightens me out. Thanks.

 

[P-14]

Bummer, Jon. You'll only make that mistake once.

I would have let you "audit" each stage, though. They should not have excluded you from the fun, even if your scores did not count.

Did they refund the course fees?

 

[Glshooter]

Not that it doesn't suck what happened to you, but rules are rules and they are there for a specific reason. All the action shooting sports have power factor requirements for a reason. I know you weren't cheating but others certainly have by under loading there ammo to gain an advantage. I hate to say it buy that ammo you used is cheap Russian junk that should never be relied upon. The notion that the MD, (who is a stand up guy and posts on this forum regularly) had a hidden agenda to sell ammo is an asinine statement. Get a clue before you make ridiculous accusations. As someone who shot the match yesterday as well, everyone was given every opportunity to make power factor with multiple rounds and by using guns with the longest possible barrels. Anyone who shoots IDPA or USPSA knows that the chrono is part of the sport. Either play by the rules or don't play. No offense to the original poster, It's clear this was unintentional on your part and unfortunate.

 

[drgrant]

Jon, that sucks. It sucks even more that they just didn't let you shoot
for the hell of it. [sad2]

I realize "the rules are the rules" guys... but geezus. [sad2]

And pox on "silver bear" for making underpowered crap. Most commercial
ammo would probably qualify no problem...

-Mike

 

[Lugnut]

"Any competitor whose ammunition fails to meet the minimum power floor will be disqualified from the entire match and receive a DNF score." Right from the rule book.

This is NOT a DQ as a safety issue would be and it's crazy that you didn't get to at least shoot (with no scores)- never the less WATCH the rest of the match!! Sorry about that Jon- that just plain sucks!

I wouldn't blame the MD however- it's likely that others contributed to this ruling before the match started.

The IDPA rules are vague wrt to letting a shooter continue. That being said- I'd NEVER make a shooter go home for this... whether it was intentional or not. And in Jon's case it was NOT!

 

[GTOShootr]

Anyone that has shot with the MD knows that a DQ was the last thing he would have wanted to issue, especially to someone as nice as Jon. The selling ammo statement is crazy talk too.

It is the rule as written by IDPA that is so disagreeable. Bringing crap ammo to a match is a mistake but it is not a DQ-worthy one. Being unsafe, cheating, being unsportsman-like, that is DQ country. Of course intenionally bringing subminor ammo is cheating, but how does one prove it was intentional? You can't, unless you have some additional info, like an admission of guilt, pattern of such behavior, etc.

The idea that the rules say being usafe, cheating, AND going subminor all generate the same treatment of the competitor in the form of a DQ is the disagreeable part. They are not equal offenses.

ICORE seems to have one of the best chrono procedures. I'm pretty sure that if you shoot factory ammo, you are exempt from the chrono.