• If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership  The benefits pay for the membership many times over.

Reciprocity gets out of committee - not sure if dupe

Here's how I see any kind of reciprocity working out, even if it passes the Senate....by example: http://dailycaller.com/2017/12/07/m...-prison-for-a-long-time-if-they-enter-jersey/

....and don't expect a Sessions-led DoJ to appoint an attorney for you to fight the charges. So JPK, et al you can beat your chest and talk about what .gov can and cannot do, but they will squash individuals and bludgeon you with their legal teams until you you are financially bled dry and maybe get to take a plea deal and only end up a PP for life.

I think better case scenarios is look up all the attempted prosecutions of people who were exempt under FOPA or LEOSA (yes, several badge holders have been arrested or indicted by commie states) like that dude in the coast guard that got caught carrying, etc. They were usually
exonerated but do you think the state got donkey punched for violating their rights and costing them thousands in attorneys fees, lost wages, etc? I doubt it... I think it would keep people from eating a conviction, but only if they had enough money to run their case long enough to get a dismissal. That also doesn't include the possibility of any other "parilmentary stupid pet tricks" in the courtroom, either.

-Mike
 
I think better case scenarios is look up all the attempted prosecutions of people who were exempt under FOPA or LEOSA (yes, several badge holders have been arrested or indicted by commie states) like that dude in the coast guard that got caught carrying, etc. They were usually
exonerated but do you think the state got donkey punched for violating their rights and costing them thousands in attorneys fees, lost wages, etc? I doubt it... I think it would keep people from eating a conviction, but only if they had enough money to run their case long enough to get a dismissal. That also doesn't include the possibility of any other "parilmentary stupid pet tricks" in the courtroom, either.

-Mike

This is what needs to happen, some kind of 93a-like treble damages and personal liability for prosecutions. It'll never happen, but it would be nice
 
You really believe it will reduce the error rate? What incentive do the states have to improve that? It's not like they're going to eat a felony (or a huge fine) for f**king up someone's criminal record.

My point is that they are only arguing for commie bullshit improvements to NICS (shit to block more people on mostly meaningless crap) and not improvements for gun owners who have been falsely accused by the system. As usual, with most concessions, we get nothing out of the deal. (Maybe I'd feel
differently if the reciprocity bill had real teeth (like a clause that suspends highway funding to any state that disobeys it, or makes LE entities liable for a felony for violating it) but it doesn't- and will likely cost gun owners thousands or perhaps millions to fully litigate the reciprocity issues in commie states.. and that assumes that we will be at least successful enough to make the law useful to most..... )

I also think that if they were really interested in improving NICS it should be 24/7 and it should have a fail open clause present. If NICS is "down" the transaction is recorded but it goes in as a proceed by default, and leave the feds holding the bag if they f*** up. That would ensure 100% system uptime. No "delays" either. You should be guaranteed a proceed or a deny in 20 minutes or less. Does it really take an examiner that long to type shit into a computer? Not enough examiners? Well they should hire more. We already pay an 8 percent rape tax to the feds on guns and ammo, they can steal a little of that pittman robertson money to pay for NICS or whatever.

Also as far as I know there's no funding in the bill for the whole relief from disabilities thing.... which is even more infuriating.

-Mike

Mike, you can do better than this.

"shit to block more people on mostly meaningless crap" absolutely nothing new is being added, the bill only makes reference to the law where this is determined. If you want to fight the reasons then go for it, it's not dependant on this bill.

Right now there isn't even a reporting system to identify where and what errors occur, but this bill includes "measures to monitor internal compliance, including any reporting failures and inaccuracies" and this is a yearly report. You can personally request a copy of the report, and we all should.

I'm not sure about this part, maybe someone else could read the bill and offer their thoughts on what it means, but it seems to say they have to correct any erroneous records in 60 days. "(2) in subsection (g), by adding at the end the following: ‘‘For purposes of the preceding sentence, not later than 60 days after the date on which the Attorney General receives such information, the Attorney General shall determine whether or not the prospective transferee is the subject of an erroneous record and remove any records that are determined to be erroneous." This should stop qualified people from repeatedly getting denied/delayed. They will actually have to fix the error.

Certainly the system should be available 24/7. But you're never going to see a default proceed if the system is down or a 100% guaranteed uptime. Heck, even system I've designed for "100%" uptime have the caveat that this doesn't include scheduled maintenance. And let's face it, the system is more likely to become unavailable because of some carrier between the gov and the user, do you really expect a default proceed on this (and the user isn't going to be able to tell the difference between a gov down and a carrier down).

As for teeth in the reciprocity bill;
13 ‘‘(3) When a person successfully asserts this section
14 as a defense in a criminal proceeding, the court shall
15 award the prevailing defendant a reasonable attorney’s
16 fee.
17 ‘‘(d)(1) A person who is deprived of any right, privi
18 lege, or immunity secured by this section, under color of
19 any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage of any
20 State or any political subdivision thereof, may bring an
21 action in any appropriate court against any other person,
22 including a State or political subdivision thereof, who
23 causes the person to be subject to the deprivation, for
24 damages or other appropriate relief.

1 ‘‘(2) The court shall award a plaintiff prevailing in
2 an action brought under paragraph (1) damages and such
3 other relief as the court deems appropriate, including a
4 reasonable attorney’s fee.

I also like this section;
22 ‘‘(c)(1) A person who carries or possesses a concealed
23 handgun in accordance with subsections (a) and (b) may
24 not be arrested or otherwise detained for violation of any
25 law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political

1 subdivision thereof related to the possession, transpor
2 tation, or carrying of firearms unless there is probable
3 cause to believe that the person is doing so in a manner
4 not provided for by this section. Presentation of facially
5 valid documents as specified in subsection (a) is prima
6 facie evidence that the individual has a license or permit
7 as required by this section.

So they can't just hold you over the weekend while they check on you permit.

Will there be court challenges? Of course there will, when has there even not been. And I've been vocal about how wrong it is to force a person to spend themselves into bankruptcy in order to exercise their rights. But at least here there is a method to recover those expenses.

I'm not saying the bill fixes everything and covers everything. But it's a step in the right direction and doesn't make anything worse.
 
Mike, you can do better than this.

"shit to block more people on mostly meaningless crap" absolutely nothing new is being added, the bill only makes reference to the law where this is determined. If you want to fight the reasons then go for it, it's not dependant on this bill.

Right now there isn't even a reporting system to identify where and what errors occur, but this bill includes "measures to monitor internal compliance, including any reporting failures and inaccuracies" and this is a yearly report. You can personally request a copy of the report, and we all should.

I'm not sure about this part, maybe someone else could read the bill and offer their thoughts on what it means, but it seems to say they have to correct any erroneous records in 60 days. "(2) in subsection (g), by adding at the end the following: ‘‘For purposes of the preceding sentence, not later than 60 days after the date on which the Attorney General receives such information, the Attorney General shall determine whether or not the prospective transferee is the subject of an erroneous record and remove any records that are determined to be erroneous." This should stop qualified people from repeatedly getting denied/delayed. They will actually have to fix the error.

Certainly the system should be available 24/7. But you're never going to see a default proceed if the system is down or a 100% guaranteed uptime. Heck, even system I've designed for "100%" uptime have the caveat that this doesn't include scheduled maintenance. And let's face it, the system is more likely to become unavailable because of some carrier between the gov and the user, do you really expect a default proceed on this (and the user isn't going to be able to tell the difference between a gov down and a carrier down).

As for teeth in the reciprocity bill;
13 ‘‘(3) When a person successfully asserts this section
14 as a defense in a criminal proceeding, the court shall
15 award the prevailing defendant a reasonable attorney’s
16 fee.
17 ‘‘(d)(1) A person who is deprived of any right, privi
18 lege, or immunity secured by this section, under color of
19 any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage of any
20 State or any political subdivision thereof, may bring an
21 action in any appropriate court against any other person,
22 including a State or political subdivision thereof, who
23 causes the person to be subject to the deprivation, for
24 damages or other appropriate relief.

1 ‘‘(2) The court shall award a plaintiff prevailing in
2 an action brought under paragraph (1) damages and such
3 other relief as the court deems appropriate, including a
4 reasonable attorney’s fee.

I also like this section;
22 ‘‘(c)(1) A person who carries or possesses a concealed
23 handgun in accordance with subsections (a) and (b) may
24 not be arrested or otherwise detained for violation of any
25 law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political

1 subdivision thereof related to the possession, transpor
2 tation, or carrying of firearms unless there is probable
3 cause to believe that the person is doing so in a manner
4 not provided for by this section. Presentation of facially
5 valid documents as specified in subsection (a) is prima
6 facie evidence that the individual has a license or permit
7 as required by this section.

So they can't just hold you over the weekend while they check on you permit.

Will there be court challenges? Of course there will, when has there even not been. And I've been vocal about how wrong it is to force a person to spend themselves into bankruptcy in order to exercise their rights. But at least here there is a method to recover those expenses.

I'm not saying the bill fixes everything and covers everything. But it's a step in the right direction and doesn't make anything worse.
I am wondering if commie states would still hold you, just to f*** with you.
 
...
Certainly the system should be available 24/7. But you're never going to see a default proceed if the system is down or a 100% guaranteed uptime. Heck, even system I've designed for "100%" uptime have the caveat that this doesn't include scheduled maintenance. And let's face it, the system is more likely to become unavailable because of some carrier between the gov and the user, do you really expect a default proceed on this (and the user isn't going to be able to tell the difference between a gov down and a carrier down).
...

Inability to reach NICS due to comm errors, well... ok...

But once you've submitted the info to NICS, why should they not have toes held to the fire for an answer in a timely manner?

Show me stats that 80% of sales that proceeded after no response from NICS were illegal... I'll bet the actual percentage is very small. I'll also bet they don't collect that data. Or at least won't report the data.
 
But once you've submitted the info to NICS, why should they not have toes held to the fire for an answer in a timely manner?
I agree.

Show me stats that 80% of sales that proceeded after no response from NICS were illegal... I'll bet the actual percentage is very small. I'll also bet they don't collect that data. Or at least won't report the data.
Right now they don't collect and data.

But collecting this data is part of the fix NICS, so we will be able to address both of these in the future. Got to collect the data before you can use it. And there are penalties if they fail to deliver the data reports.
 
Stalwart pro-RKBA Rep Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) explains that the "fix NICS" language inserted into the bill is a sneaky codification of Obama gun control executive orders and regulatory schemes designed to deprive millions of people of their right to buy and own guns, http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...ix-nics-gun-control-expansion-cannot-support/. He explains further in this plain-spoken video he posted on his Facebook page,
View: https://www.facebook.com/RepLouieGohmert/videos/10155843799556904/
.
 
Stalwart pro-RKBA Rep Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) explains that the "fix NICS" language inserted into the bill is a sneaky codification of Obama gun control executive orders and regulatory schemes designed to deprive millions of people of their right to buy and own guns, http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...ix-nics-gun-control-expansion-cannot-support/. He explains further in this plain-spoken video he posted on his Facebook page,
View: https://www.facebook.com/RepLouieGohmert/videos/10155843799556904/
.

This guy is so far off it's clear he never read either bill and doesn't know the first thing about what the laws are now or how the bills will, or won't, affect them. It's just sad.
 
Incorporation is a modern fabrication of 20th century courts.

The simple fact of the matter is that if any of the founders and following generations contemporaries actually believed that the BoR or any other amendments applied to the states then none of the states that joined the union in the 19th century would have included their own equivalents of the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th etc in their own newly crafted state constitutions.

Thats the fact jack!

This is why I say you are arguing philosophy. Things are the way they are, arguing that the founders saw it differently does not change what is. If those states would have joined or not is immaterial, since we will not get back to the government they had, or wanted. You need to work with reality as it is now, reality is we need to go step by step to force the states and fed to respect our rights. This is a step, and does not hurt us.
 
If you were to pull your arse out of your battered mass gun owners butt and look at the rest of the country you would find that the rest of the country isnt like mAss.

Your own personal reality isnt the reality that everyone else operates under.

For something like 175 years the federal government operated in a largely constitutional manner and its only in the last few decades that government has been operating effectively illegally.

First off.....how well have your battered progressive state tactics worked so far?

Simply put your tactics are an unmitigated disaster....you might as well be an advocate for MDA.....

In contrast the REST of the country has followed very different approach and gone on the attack and the result is ~16 constitutional carry states in less than 20 years

So whats the right approach?

The battered mAss gun owner surrender monkey tactics that further enable already unconstitutional practices?

OR is the right approach to take the high road (constitutional carry) and implement a solution that the criminals in the fed gov cannot further pervert/manipulate?


There is nothing stopping you from continuing to fight for con carry. I'm not sure that you have noticed but this is not a surrender, this is an EXPANSION of rights. Not just for us stuck in crap states, but for you going anywhere outside your state. I'm glad states are going the right direction, but that does not mean that my rights stop at the state line until every state feels like going the right way.

I'm also glad to see that you at least know the fed is different now than it was, complaining that things have changed is not the way to go back to how it was. No matter why it changed, or what it "Should" be, it is this way now and we have to work in that system. You can call me a battered gun owner all day, but I'm looking at the situation as it exists and trying to go forward in a way that will actually work.

You are living in a fantasy land where taking the high road and good intentions will somehow magically fix the rampant issues. If we don't take any chance we have to go the other direction, to make the other side fight from the back foot, then the next time they get in we will simply lose more ground. If this law is in place for a number of years, and there is no blood in the streets (Hint: there won't be) then there will be no push to repeal it, and repealing is a lot harder than getting the initial law passed (Look at the last 40 years of unconstitutional BS gun laws).
 
He may be, but maybe not. I read yesterday that it's possible (depending on how aware the R leadership is or is not) for the Democrats to maneuver the bill in the Senate so that the reciprocity part dies, but the Fix NICS part gets passed out and sent to a conference committee. The goal of the Dems will be to use it as a weapon to force the Republicans to agree to that in the run up to the mid terms.

I think it's highly likely that both bills will die this year or at the least be dragged into next year. The Dems still think that running on gun control is a winning strategy.

This guy is so far off it's clear he never read either bill and doesn't know the first thing about what the laws are now or how the bills will, or won't, affect them. It's just sad.
 
Its not an expansion of rights

Its an expansion of unconstitutional government.



Your battered gun owner approach has led to nothing but abject failure in Mass, NY, NJ and a raft of other states.......doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the very definition of insanity/stupidity



But its not a rampant issue

its an issue for a handful of states......progressive states where battered gun owner approaches have led to nothing but abject failure.

With a NH License and an out of state from Utah and one or two others most anyone can carry in something like 40 of 50 states.....

Unconstitutional solutions to unconstitutional problems only result in more unconstitutional issues which in turn continue to propagate.

You dont solve criminality with more criminality.......

Ok, i'm done here. You can't work with reality, and this is going nowhere. I'm not going to clutter the thread with more back and forth when you refuse to accept that government today is different than it used to be, and working within the system is the only option short of open revolution.
 
I heard some muttering with one eye and ear open early this morning that our own Maura was pleading with others not to pass this. Did anyone get the full story I mean whining?
 
Mike, you can do better than this.

"shit to block more people on mostly meaningless crap" absolutely nothing new is being added, the bill only makes reference to the law where this is determined. If you want to fight the reasons then go for it, it's not dependant on this bill.

Right now there isn't even a reporting system to identify where and what errors occur, but this bill includes "measures to monitor internal compliance, including any reporting failures and inaccuracies" and this is a yearly report. You can personally request a copy of the report, and we all should.

I'm not sure about this part, maybe someone else could read the bill and offer their thoughts on what it means, but it seems to say they have to correct any erroneous records in 60 days. "(2) in subsection (g), by adding at the end the following: ‘‘For purposes of the preceding sentence, not later than 60 days after the date on which the Attorney General receives such information, the Attorney General shall determine whether or not the prospective transferee is the subject of an erroneous record and remove any records that are determined to be erroneous." This should stop qualified people from repeatedly getting denied/delayed. They will actually have to fix the error.

Whats the punishment against the reporting agency for not correcting the errors?

Oh wait, there probably isn't one. Having deadlines and stuff is adorable but as we all know from MA laws, etc, agencies frequently ignore such laws and are never held accountable for it. (like the duration in the law specified to issue a permit in a window, etc. )

Certainly the system should be available 24/7. But you're never going to see a default proceed if the system is down or a 100% guaranteed uptime. Heck, even system I've designed for "100%" uptime have the caveat that this doesn't include scheduled maintenance. And let's face it, the system is more likely to become unavailable because of some carrier between the gov and the user, do you really expect a default proceed on this (and the user isn't going to be able to tell the difference between a gov down and a carrier down).

It's 2017 and the .gov has other stuff like air traffic control systems that generally don't or rarely go down, I don't see how this is any different. There's no reason they can't decentralize it and replicate it (multiple call centers) and make it redundant. If we're going to waste money
on this background check horseshit it should be implemented professionally, not this hack job bullshit where it takes an escalation and 3 or 4 days for some a**h*** to resolve a records conflict.

As for teeth in the reciprocity bill;
13 ‘‘(3) When a person successfully asserts this section
14 as a defense in a criminal proceeding, the court shall
15 award the prevailing defendant a reasonable attorney’s
16 fee.

That's cute but that doesn't put up the money for the person's defense, unless the attorney is willing to
take the case contingent on receiving this fee. Doesn't do you much good if you call the attorney and they're
all like "Yeah, I need a 5K retainer to start".

Also, there should be triple damages or something in there. It's a f***ing civil rights violation for chrissakes. If the state does this, and gets caught doing it, it should get raped for it. A reasonable attorneys fee? For unlawful arrest and incarceration? lol.

17 ‘‘(d)(1) A person who is deprived of any right, privi
18 lege, or immunity secured by this section, under color of
19 any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage of any
20 State or any political subdivision thereof, may bring an
21 action in any appropriate court against any other person,
22 including a State or political subdivision thereof, who
23 causes the person to be subject to the deprivation, for
24 damages or other appropriate relief.

1 ‘‘(2) The court shall award a plaintiff prevailing in
2 an action brought under paragraph (1) damages and such
3 other relief as the court deems appropriate, including a
4 reasonable attorney’s fee.

I also like this section;
22 ‘‘(c)(1) A person who carries or possesses a concealed
23 handgun in accordance with subsections (a) and (b) may
24 not be arrested or otherwise detained for violation of any
25 law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political

1 subdivision thereof related to the possession, transpor
2 tation, or carrying of firearms unless there is probable
3 cause to believe that the person is doing so in a manner
4 not provided for by this section. Presentation of facially
5 valid documents as specified in subsection (a) is prima
6 facie evidence that the individual has a license or permit
7 as required by this section.


So they can't just hold you over the weekend while they check on you permit.

Wheres the punishment implied for state actors that violate any of that? Oh noes, I'm sure they're really scared of a USC 1983 suit. (which takes like years, btw) They might lose money, that was stolen from taxpayers. I'm sure the antis are
quaking in their boots over that one..... the local courts are going to be all like "guns are bad, how about now" so that means the victim will have to move it into federal court.

I still see absolutely nothing in there that actually applies real pressure to the state. A reasonable court would adhere to these regulations rather easily, the problem is we're not talking about reasonable courts. We're talking about courts where they won't even allow someone to be a DA if they are known to own firearms. (some of the counties in NY are like this).

Will there be court challenges? Of course there will, when has there even not been.

There wouldn't need to be if the law was written properly and had teeth. Or at least if it was it would put the antis on the defensive and not us. Make them scramble around for once, instead of the gun owners being the
legal guinea pigs.

And I've been vocal about how wrong it is to force a person to spend themselves into bankruptcy in order to exercise their rights. But at least here there is a method to recover those expenses.

If a person doesn't have enough assets up front, they can still get screwed by this process, like I explained earlier, unless you're lucky enough to get an attorney willing to represent you with the promise of this
recovery....

I'm not saying the bill fixes everything and covers everything. But it's a step in the right direction and doesn't make anything worse.

I don't think it makes anything worse but I think the part that I hate is a bunch of retardo gun owners with NRA cards and tune into Faux news every night are acting like this thing is some kind of a prime rib dinner level victory for gun owners, no, it's not... it's more like a single
chicken nugget.... from ratdonalds. The whole thing is a ham fisted paste and glue GOP special. This should have passed under the Bush admin (when we had both houses) and easily, and been better written... now we're settling for table scraps.

-Mike
 
Its not an expansion of rights

Its an expansion of unconstitutional government.



Your battered gun owner approach has led to nothing but abject failure in Mass, NY, NJ and a raft of other states.......doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the very definition of insanity/stupidity



But its not a rampant issue

its an issue for a handful of states......progressive states where battered gun owner approaches have led to nothing but abject failure.

With a NH License and an out of state from Utah and one or two others most anyone can carry in something like 40 of 50 states.....

Unconstitutional solutions to unconstitutional problems only result in more unconstitutional issues which in turn continue to propagate.

You dont solve criminality with more criminality.......



You said:
"With a NH License and an out of state from Utah and one or two others most anyone can carry in something like 40 of 50 states....."


That's just not correct.

With a NH license and non-resident licenses from Utah, Florida and Virginia, (the multi-state permits), you get this:

upload_2017-12-8_10-51-29.png

Look, I understand the "purity" of your argument for Constitutional Carry. But I'm a pragmatic type of guy. I write software for a living and I'm a shadetree mechanic. I'm real big on "what works". I live in Georgia and I summer in Connecticut. I have a Georgia resident permit, and Connecticut, Florida, Utah, Maine, and New Hampshire non-resident permits. With those in hand, I'm good for about 30 states.

I'm NOT good for Maryland, New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island or Massachusetts. (Not covered in Illinois, Oregon or California either, but I typically don't travel out there).

With National Reciprocity - all of those states are FORCED to recognize the permit that my state has issued me.

And we can keep pushing for Constitutional Carry for the next twenty years. During which time we *might* get another 16 states. Or not.

Right now we have Trump in office, we just got Gorsuch, and we've got a <cough> Republican majority. It's time to capitalize on this as much as we can.
 
Right now they don't collect and data.

But collecting this data is part of the fix NICS, so we will be able to address both of these in the future. Got to collect the data before you can use it. And there are penalties if they fail to deliver the data reports.


There is definitely data about this in the NICS annual operating report, except its not organized in such a way thats easy to follow, but it does have stats on things like....

How many outright denials happened;
How many delays happened;
How many delays turned into denials;
How many delays turned into proceeds. (I think this is some staggering 5 digit number, I don't remember the amount from the last report, but I do remember it pissed me off when I read it. )

One problem is there is no data collected on the number of people who don't obtain a firearm due to a delay. I'm going to guess that, in some circumstances, theres a substantial amount of people who get fed up and basically give up, and ask for their money
back. There's also likely no stat on the number of delays that age out past the 3 days (and how many people get f***ed by FFLs not willing to do an automatic proceed after 3 days). So for people that always get long delays, it becomes incredibly difficult to actually purchase a
gun, because then they have to shop around to find an FFL that is willing to proceed after 3 days....

I also don't think the operating report collects data on "how many people who have VAF UPIN entries but still get delayed anyways". I think they know this but don't publish it because it's quite obviously embarrassing.

-Mike
 
This guy is so far off it's clear he never read either bill and doesn't know the first thing about what the laws are now or how the bills will, or won't, affect them. It's just sad.

The worst part is there are plenty of things seriously wrong with the bill but instead, the guy is using his platform to go on a tinfoiler tangent instead of talking about the stuff that actually matters....

Gun owners think they are getting this:

event_prop_hire_fabulous_magazine_01.jpg



But the reality of the bill package is its more like this:

shitty-cake.jpg






-Mike
 
...
I totally agree we need to push but the right/constitutional way to do it is to push for national constitutional carry
...

Not to beat a dead horse, but...

To beat a dead horse, we already HAVE National Constitutional Carry. It's codified in the Bill of Rights, the Second Amendment.

The issue is, we've allowed politicians that don't really understand the law, to MAKE laws and we all just went along with it.
 
Sorry but you're flat out WRONG

DC isnt a state and furthermore its subject to laws/governance of Congress who could fix DC's issues in a single act.....should be low hanging fruit for a GOP congress right?

You wouldnt drive through Hawaii......not to dismiss but lets be real.......

Puerto Rico is in the same boat....

Minnesota has reciprocity with a bunch off states so we can drop that one

https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-divisions/administrative/Pages/permit-to-carry-reciprocity.aspx

South Carolina is in the same boat...they issue a NR permit and have reciprocity with a pile of states http://www.sled.sc.gov/Reciprocity1.aspx

Connecticut similarly issues a non resident permit so its not an issue either

Mass issues NR permits as well believe it or not

Oregon issues a NR permit to folks of neighboring states so its half on/off the list

Delaware has reciprocity with a pile of states including Utah https://attorneygeneral.delaware.gov/criminal/concealed-carry-deadly-weapons-ccdw/

RI similarly issues a NR permit

That leaves us with the following:
Hawaii
Ill
California
NY
NJ
Md

So no.......you're not accurate in your response






What you're advocating is building a house without a foundation......

I totally agree we need to push but the right/constitutional way to do it is to push for national constitutional carry.....the current unconsitutional proposal will end up in courts and the dems will court shop the way they always do to get some circuit to declare it unconstitutional.......then its at the mercy of an appeal to supreme court and we all know how thats turned out in recent years wrt the courts allowing lower court decisions to stand
[/QUOTE]


wow.

You said NH and a couple of other states. I said you're wrong because you are. Then you changed your argument. And cited a bunch of facts to show that you're right.

Some of your facts are correct. Some of them are incorrect. And some of them don't apply to your original statement which I was replying to.

One example - you listed South Carolina issuing a NR permit. You failed to mention that they ONLY do that if you're a landowner there. Trust me, I KNOW this because I looked into it since it's a neighboring state. And they don't accept non-resident permits from Utah or Virginia. They also don't accept resident permits from any of the New England states. They just recently started accepting Georgia's permit.

You didn't say anything about a CT, RI or MA non-resident permit all of which you'd need to carry in those states. None of them accept anyone else's. CT's non-resident permit is easy to obtain. RI and MA permits - not so easy.

You're moving past the point of passionately arguing your point to just arguing. I'm more than happy to talk about this, but I really have no interest in arguing with a fellow gun owner. It's not doing either of us any good.
 
Not to beat a dead horse, but...

To beat a dead horse, we already HAVE National Constitutional Carry. It's codified in the Bill of Rights, the Second Amendment.

The issue is, we've allowed politicians that don't really understand the law, to MAKE laws and we all just went along with it.

so the reality is still, no we don't have it
 
I don't want any Federal Laws or State Laws. The Second Amendment is clear.

I want Constitutional Carry and no AWB anywhere. I want NFA repealed.

Murder is illegal, threatening people is illegal, justifiable homicide is not, regardless of weapons or materials used. Negligence is a thing, and juries decide based on facts. It's called Justice.

If you are in prison, you can't have a gun. If you are not, you can. Crimes with or without guns are illegal regardless.

Why is that so hard?
 
I don't want any Federal Laws or State Laws. The Second Amendment is clear.

I want Constitutional Carry and no AWB anywhere. I want NFA repealed.

Murder is illegal, threatening people is illegal, justifiable homicide is not, regardless of weapons or materials used. Negligence is a thing, and juries decide based on facts. It's called Justice.

If you are in prison, you can't have a gun. If you are not, you can. Crimes with or without guns are illegal regardless.

Why is that so hard?

I'm gonna go with Door #1: "That was rhetorical, right?".

Because we as a nation live under a body of laws that have grown way the fck out of control. And we as a nation have a congress and senate that for the most part are populated by scum that don't represent us.

As an undergraduate I was pre-law, intending to follow my grandfather's footsteps and go through Yale. Yeah, he was captain of the football team there - I'm not speaking figuratively, I'm speaking literally. (Evadd - that one's for you). And somewhere in my junior year I realized that my family's expectations had shaped mine - and that really wasn't what I wanted to do. At that point I was double majoring in English and political science with an emphasis in 19th century political philosophy and I was realizing just what a snakepit it all was.

Fortunately for me, I found that I have a real affinity for writing code and it has let me make a lot of choices in my life, including moving out of Connecticut.

I'd like Constitutional Carry and no AWB anywhere. I'd like NFA reapealed too.
The 10 Commandments are pretty simple, regardless of whether you believe in a God - or not.
Justice is real and shouldn't require a weasel to obtain - Hillary should be under the damn jail by now.

You're right - it shouldn't be so hard.
But as you and I and everyone else knows - that's ideal world.
Our world has aholes like Gifford, Brady, Blumenthal, Murphy, Rosenberg, Cuomo, Franken, Clinton etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum in it. - and Justice? Justice is how much you can pay for or take for yourself some days.

The gun grabbers keep nibbling.

Is "FIX NICS" the poison pill for National Reciprocity? Or vice versa? Both sides are screaming now and we're arguing on this forum.
 
Sorry but you're flat out WRONG

DC isnt a state and furthermore its subject to laws/governance of Congress who could fix DC's issues in a single act.....should be low hanging fruit for a GOP congress right?

You wouldnt drive through Hawaii......not to dismiss but lets be real.......

Puerto Rico is in the same boat....

Minnesota has reciprocity with a bunch off states so we can drop that one

https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-divisions/administrative/Pages/permit-to-carry-reciprocity.aspx

South Carolina is in the same boat...they issue a NR permit and have reciprocity with a pile of states http://www.sled.sc.gov/Reciprocity1.aspx

Connecticut similarly issues a non resident permit so its not an issue either

Mass issues NR permits as well believe it or not

Oregon issues a NR permit to folks of neighboring states so its half on/off the list

Delaware has reciprocity with a pile of states including Utah https://attorneygeneral.delaware.gov/criminal/concealed-carry-deadly-weapons-ccdw/

RI similarly issues a NR permit

That leaves us with the following:
Hawaii
Ill
California
NY
NJ
Md

So no.......you're not accurate in your response






What you're advocating is building a house without a foundation......

I totally agree we need to push but the right/constitutional way to do it is to push for national constitutional carry.....the current unconsitutional proposal will end up in courts and the dems will court shop the way they always do to get some circuit to declare it unconstitutional.......then its at the mercy of an appeal to supreme court and we all know how thats turned out in recent years wrt the courts allowing lower court decisions to stand

At the end of the day, and after the payment of several thousands of dollars obtaining each of those permits, you are walking through Boston and are stopped by a police officer who notices a pronounced bulge under your shirt in your rear lower waist area. The officer asks you if you are carrying a weapon. You reply "no, it is just my wallet with all these freakin permits."
 
I said with a NH license and NR's from a couple other states you can carry in ~40 states across the US

AND I WAS CORRECT IN THAT ORIGINAL ASSESSMENT

The FACT of the matter is that if you want to apply for RI, Mass and a couple other states the number where you can legally CCW goes up to almost 45

But by all means keep pushing for the house with no foundation solution and we'll see it blow up in our faces spectacularly just like all of the other battered progressive state gun owner "solutions" do.

I don't think anything is going to "blow up" but I do see a problem here WRT squandered political capital. After the "GOP gun vote placator" crew is done with this, does anyone think they're going to entertain any other pro gun
bills anytime soon? Or that they will come back and clean up the mess this is going to make? (Because you know the anti states are going to double down on the stupid). Basically GOP types have been trying to pass this so they
can get the NRA off their back and get numbskull-grade gun owners to stop bothering them...


-Mike
 
States that recognize Mass
*SNIP*

States that recognize NH
*SNIP*

States that recognize Utah NR
*SNIP*

And even with those states, you still can't drive south out of Massachusetts, as Connecticut, New York, and Rhode Island weren't anywhere in those lists. Which means that if you're in New England north of the 42nd parallel, you get to go to ME, NH, VT, and MA.

Can you then add CT and RI? Sure and maybe, in that order. And you've still got 14 million people jammed up at the NY border. Cross that, SOL.
 
While I think the carry side of the bill isn't well-written in one place, it does cover most interstate carry scenarios pretty well. Despite that, I think it is jumping the gun out of impatience - because we are already headed for national carry on a constitutional law basis. We're headed there on the admittedly slow process of the Supreme Court building a case law history that bears on the ultimate point that the broad sweep of the 14th A. includes 2A RKBA along with the other rights drawn together in 'that old thang.' We are headed there through a method that is going to stick for more than a handful of years. Or we can let Congress jam something through that the next Congress in 2 years can just undo (a privilege, not a right).

Shoot, 10 years ago, the notion a regular RESIDENT of Illinois could carry legally in-state was a good joke. Now, IL residents have a shall-issue system. It has big hurdles, and its non-res side is broken as heck, but I know a lot of ordinary IL folks with resident licenses now. Even in NJ, a couple of county sheriffs are issuing resident licenses (Christie's middle finger to the left when he was plainly on the way out was to loosen the state's guidelines on that). Every year it's getting better in the most astounding places. A successful Article IV P&I suit over non-resident RKBA rights is WAY less than a decade away.

I get the impatience, I really do. I travel to and through hard anti-RKBA states regularly. Every year it's gotten better. I wish it would happen overnight, but I'm not willing to endorse a bad way to get there.
 
Back
Top Bottom