Reciprocity gets out of committee - not sure if dupe

another question is: Let's say, MA compliants...When NH gun owners pass through MA, what are they going to do with the hi cap mags?
5 year felony charge. What are they going to do with MA residents that pass through NJ with hollow points? 5 years prison. Maura will make sure to prosecute so that it sets an example to people from NH, don't come here.
 
Arguing with him is pointless, he is arguing philosophy while everyone else lives in reality. It would be great if things worked that way, but they don't. Here in reality we want to use the fed to force compliance with our basic rights, which gets us closer to the utopia he thinks will spring forth on it's own somehow. He acts like the combined bill is a poison pill when it contains no expansion of NICS, just a mandate for people to share info that already makes people PP's, just isn't in the fed system yet.

This bill has nothing that hurts us, and worst case could be repealed later (Much harder to repeal something than pass it). It only expands rights.



The law defines handguns under that law as including the magazines and ammo, and that it covers you for posession of both.

Exactly this.
 
So, what is the deal with this 'Fix the NICS' poison pill that was dropped into this thing?

GOA says that unpaid traffic tickets could lead to a NICS denial if this goes through.

S.446 is a clean CCW Reciprocity Bill in the Senate

Their claim that unpaid tickets will get you a denial on a gun purchase is based on a really strange way of looking at things. First, unpaid tickets will NOT get you on NICS for a denial. What will, under the CURRENT law is if you are fugitive from justice. GOA is basing their statement on you having ignored your tickets and court summons and a Judge has issued a warrant for your arrest. This makes you a fugitive from justice and yes you will be denied under the current law. Further, GOA is assuming that currently states are not reporting these warrants, even though they are already required to do so. Apparently GOA's assumption is that these are low priority items and states are probably not reporting them (pure speculation).

The fix NICS bill adds accountability to motivate states to fulfil their obligation to properly report the items already required under the current law. It also adds a validation requirements to insure more accurate results (this works both ways, items that should have caused a denial in the past but were missed, will now be caught. But there should also be fewer false denials and delays).

So what GOA is saying is that if you are a total dumbass who ignored your tickets and refused to show up when you were summonsed into court (BTW ignoring a court summons is major stupid), and you were able to slip through the cracks because your state employees had no reason to do their job, it will now catch up with you and you will be denied... until you deal with your issue and pay your tickets.

Yup, this is their reasoning.

There are no new restrictions in the Fix NICS bill.
 
in the bill of rights .. smart ass :D
LOL. The fact that there is even a question about which amendments were incorporated by the states is laughable. If not by the plain language of Article 6, Clause 2, certainly the 14th Amendment would have incorporated the Bill of Rights as applying to the states.
 
Packing up and moving is not a viable solution for me. I live in CT, and I own a MA corporation. I am also licensed to practice in MA. While I could move to NH, and have things easier in my state of residence, I would still spend a large portion of my time in MA. Obtaining a license to practice in another state would be costly and time consuming. CT, for all of its other BS with regard to guns, is a shall issue state. MA is another matter. First, what is my status? Am I a resident by virtue of owning a MA corp and having my office in MA, or am I a nonresident by virtue of my domicile in CT? This is a bunch of unnecessary hoop jumping for something that is simple as recognition of my valid license obtained through a procedure which verified my good character. Some states will not change if they are not forced to. That is kind of like asking the 1850's south to voluntarily stop slavery.

140/131(d) may help you wrt to a resident license as an out of stater who owns a MA business.

(d) Any person residing or having a place of business within the jurisdiction of the licensing authority or any law enforcement officer employed by the licensing authority or any person residing in an area of exclusive federal jurisdiction located within a city or town may submit to the licensing authority or the colonel of state police, an application for a Class A license to carry firearms, or renewal of the same, which the licensing authority or the colonel may issue if it appears that the applicant is not a prohibited person, as set forth in this section, to be issued a license and has good reason to fear injury to the applicant or the applicant's property or for any other reason, including the carrying of firearms for use in sport or target practice only, subject to the restrictions expressed or authorized under this section.
 
5 year felony charge. What are they going to do with MA residents that pass through NJ with hollow points? 5 years prison. Maura will make sure to persecute so that it sets an example to people from NH, don't come here.

Words mean what words mean. In this case the proper word is persecution, not prosecution.

FIFY
 
Wrong questions as usual

Is this constitutional as written/proposed?

Is there precident for similar unconstitutional over reaches to be abused?

Clearly the answer to both is YES

Yes, it is constitutional. This is a mechanism under which the federal government tells the states (Who by the way are also bound by the constitution) that they may not infringe on the rights of US citizens who happen to live in other states. They are enforcing part the 2nd against the states, the thing we are always asking the courts to do.

Since it isn't unconstitutional, and there is no part of it that can be abused as the bill is written (Can't help but notice you didn't answer my questions about how it is a problem)

That is arguably true

Aside from further codifying into law unconstitutional infringements AND providing for zero means of restoring rights of people who have served their time

It appears that folks are over looking a couple things including the shenanigans on bump stocks, expansion of NICS

AND enforcement of some of the most egregious aspects of the law



So you have issues with enforcing current federal law? That simply forces the states to report things that already make you a PP. Without this you may pass a nics check, but you will be in effect a felon in possession. How is having the background check system deny someone before they can, perhaps unknowingly, break other federal laws a bad thing?
 
When NH gun owners pass through MA they'll abide by MA law... just like when I carry in CT on an NR permit I'm obliged to follow CT law


Not as it is written, the definition of handgun covers the magazines and ammo in said magazines. As it stands it supercedes state law wrt posession of the mags and ammo in those mags.
 
When NH gun owners pass through MA they'll abide by MA law... just like when I carry in CT on an NR permit I'm obliged to follow CT law

In reality, national "reciprocity" will cause many to simply assume they can carry in the same manner as they can in their home state and some of these will get jammed up for it, for all intents and purposes losing everything, even if they win.

Whether they *ought* to be aware of the interstate differences is irrelevant. SOME will get screwed.

I've read the 2nd Amendment a couple times and STILL it does not say:

The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms Shall Not be Infringed, except where Federal, State or Local authorities impose limits, regulations or law prohibiting the ownership, possession or use of specific or general firearms, accessories, parts or supplies thereof.
 
Whats unconstitutional is the infringement on RKBA

NICS is unconstitutional as is the federal government passing legislation forcing states to comply with licensing/permitting schemes of other states.\

As stated several times in past, if you want to argue the issue wrt the fed gov preventing infringement on RKBA then the ONLY way to do that is via Con Carry





OF COURSE I have problems with the existing unconstitutional laws

Where in US Constitution was the fed gov granted the power/authority to regulate purchase of firearms let alone prohibit anyone from posessing

Simply put it aint in there

Then lobby for the removal of GCA 34 and 68, ill be right there with you. You don't take everything in one bite, it isn't possible. This step moves us closer to getting our right back as it was intended, arguing something that will not and can't happen does not help us. Come back to reality, where our rights were taken a step at a time, they come back the same way, arguing that it isn't the right way just lets them take more. The antis will not play fair, taking the high road will get us nowhere.

You are arguing philosophy, in the real world that's a fantasy. The way government works is so far removed from how it should that saying absolutist stuff like "Con carry or nothing" just turns people off who don't already agree with you and sends politicians running. Either work within the system as it is, or advocate for some sort of revolution to change it. There are no other choices if we want to get our rights back.
 
In reality, national "reciprocity" will cause many to simply assume they can carry in the same manner as they can in their home state and some of these will get jammed up for it, for all intents and purposes losing everything, even if they win.

Whether they *ought* to be aware of the interstate differences is irrelevant. SOME will get screwed.

I've read the 2nd Amendment a couple times and STILL it does not say:

The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms Shall Not be Infringed, except where Federal, State or Local authorities impose limits, regulations or law prohibiting the ownership, possession or use of specific or general firearms, accessories, parts or supplies thereof.

You're absolutely right.
In a perfect world.
But you and I both know that this is a most imperfect world.

Ask anyone who rides about helmet laws, they vary from state to state. Delaware used to, (and may still), require you to have a helmet available for each person. Rhode Island used to require your passenger and/or anyone under 18 to wear one. If you ride interstate it's on you to know what the laws are and decide if you're going to be in conformance. Firearms are no different.
 
You're argueing that an expansion of unconstitutional federal government laws moves the ball in the right direction..........that sir is patently irrational.

Furthermore there isnt a single example where unconstitutional laws have NOT resulted in additional infringements on rights/citizens

Finally, you keep trying to make some silly argument about "Philosophy" but the REALITY is that NH and ~15 other states have actually implemented constitutional carry.......

You and the battered mass gun owner mentally you bring to the table is destructive to liberty and freedom....if you want to enguage in "Dumb Shit" then keep it in mass......dont try to force that dumb shit on the rest of us.....

Still havent seen you come up with where in the constitution any of the dumb shit you're supporting is constitutional.......just sayin'

Just ignore the whole post where I explained? Maybe you should move on, screaming "But Muh 2nd amendment!!11!1!1!!" gets us nowhere and makes you look like a moron.
 
You're absolutely right.
In a perfect world.
But you and I both know that this is a most imperfect world.

Ask anyone who rides about helmet laws, they vary from state to state. Delaware used to, (and may still), require you to have a helmet available for each person. Rhode Island used to require your passenger and/or anyone under 18 to wear one. If you ride interstate it's on you to know what the laws are and decide if you're going to be in conformance. Firearms are no different.

RI lifted that?

I'm not disputing you should be aware of laws in enemy territory. But it's perfectly predictable that the masses will hear "reciprocity" and NOT realize that means, "except". I guarantee you somebody will be in jail for some such offense within a year of this passing. If it were a matter of paying a fine and going on your way, whatever.

I'm not suggesting we should break the law, even despite the fact that ALL firearm laws are unconstitutional, but it should ALWAYS be pointed out at every opportunity that those laws ARE in fact, unconstitutional.

never.jpg
 
Thats the point though

You DIDNT explain it

Where in the US Constitution was the fed gov provided the power or authority to enforce any kooky state reciprocity scheme on the states?

Simply put ITS NOT THERE

They are applying part of the second amendment and enforcing it against the states. If I remember correctly the 2nd amendment binds both federal and state government, right?
 
I think the next push, if this passes intact, is constitutional carry. If this passes and “gun violence” decreases/remains the same it’s going to show that nothing has changed wrt to states that already have 2Acarry.

The major benefit will come from residents of 2Acarry states that will actually have 2Acarry nationwide. Simply having a driver’s license will be proof enough of ID for the purposes of this law. Sweet deal for them.
 
Ok, I'll play if you want to play the incorporation card

What did the supreme court say on the subject of "Bearing Arms"?
So you are saying nothing passes constitutional muster without a SCOTUS stamp? Pretty sure things work the other way, the elected officials say that bearing is legal, until the court says otherwise, thats how it is.
 
\
Their claim that unpaid tickets will get you a denial on a gun purchase is based on a really strange way of looking at things. First, unpaid tickets will NOT get you on NICS for a denial. What will, under the CURRENT law is if you are fugitive from justice. GOA is basing their statement on you having ignored your tickets and court summons and a Judge has issued a warrant for your arrest. This makes you a fugitive from justice and yes you will be denied under the current law. Further, GOA is assuming that currently states are not reporting these warrants, even though they are already required to do so. Apparently GOA's assumption is that these are low priority items and states are probably not reporting them (pure speculation).

The fix NICS bill adds accountability to motivate states to fulfil their obligation to properly report the items already required under the current law. It also adds a validation requirements to insure more accurate results (this works both ways, items that should have caused a denial in the past but were missed, will now be caught. But there should also be fewer false denials and delays).

So what GOA is saying is that if you are a total dumbass who ignored your tickets and refused to show up when you were summonsed into court (BTW ignoring a court summons is major stupid), and you were able to slip through the cracks because your state employees had no reason to do their job, it will now catch up with you and you will be denied... until you deal with your issue and pay your tickets.

You do realize, however, that this basically makes the NICS appeal process an even bigger piece of shit dumpster fire than it is already- because there are probably THOUSANDS of more "prohibited persons" in the system if all the people subject to this suddenly get reported... oh someone's a fugitive from justice because they didn't show up for a hearing they may not even have known they were supposed to attend.... meaning there's that much more shit for the public to deal with. You are also assuming that simply "paying the tickets" will erase the flag, etc. As many delay/false denial sufferers here can attest to, often times this is easier said than done.

The worst thing about this NICS bullshit is there appears to be no improvement at all on the process. You shouldn't have to send the feds a letter and beg to buy a gun or whatever. That's all horseshit, Not to mention the false delays and denials which are thousands of people a
year. This bill will likely do nothing to address any of those problems. (also to include fun topics like- "Why the f**k are people with VAF upins still getting delayed?" )

-Mike
 
You're the one trying to play incorporation games......cant play that game without SCOTUS

What I'm saying is that the federal government wasnt provided the power in 2A to take any action you're advocating.

2A as written/ratified is a restriction on the fed gov..........it doesnt grant the federal gov any power to do anything....if you want to argue that congress has power to protect rights then you have to look elsewhere.......

The 2nd is a restriction of government on any level, this has been decided no games need to be played. Congress has the power to make laws, they don't need some special second power to "Protect rights". Making a law that does not violate the 2nd, and happens to slap down the states over it is not going outside their normal making of law. Federal laws were required to stop systematic discrimination last century, sometimes the states simply will not follow the constitution, at which point the fed steps in and makes the states all play nice. I wish things were different, I wish states really were separate entities, but reality strikes again and we are all citizens of the united states with rights no matter what state we are in.
 
\


You do realize, however, that this basically makes the NICS appeal process an even bigger piece of shit dumpster fire than it is already- because there are probably THOUSANDS of more "prohibited persons" in the system if all the people subject to this suddenly get reported... oh someone's a fugitive from justice because they didn't show up for a hearing they may not even have known they were supposed to attend.... meaning there's that much more shit for the public to deal with. You are also assuming that simply "paying the tickets" will erase the flag, etc. As many delay/false denial sufferers here can attest to, often times this is easier said than done.

The worst thing about this NICS bullshit is there appears to be no improvement at all on the process. You shouldn't have to send the feds a letter and beg to buy a gun or whatever. That's all horseshit, Not to mention the false delays and denials which are thousands of people a
year. This bill will likely do nothing to address any of those problems. (also to include fun topics like- "Why the f**k are people with VAF upins still getting delayed?" )

-Mike

First you argue that you don't want the system to run better then you argue that it doesn't run well enough. Which is it? You can't have both.

There is language in the bill intended to improve the accuracy of the items being reported. Sure, this will mean fewer people slipping through the cracks. But it will also mean that there will be few false denials. In other words fewer mistakes in both directions. It's a legitimate attempt to make the system better. Or we could just complain that it doesn't do enough, and too much, and do nothing while complaining that nothing is being done.
 
Why do I think he hasn't even read the bill.
I'd say no.
Trump killed that EO a while back.
He's just repeating what someone fed him. Not very encouraging when half of them probably don't even know what they're voting on past the bullet points.
 
First you argue that you don't want the system to run better then you argue that it doesn't run well enough. Which is it? You can't have both.

There is language in the bill intended to improve the accuracy of the items being reported. Sure, this will mean fewer people slipping through the cracks. But it will also mean that there will be few false denials. In other words fewer mistakes in both directions. It's a legitimate attempt to make the system better. Or we could just complain that it doesn't do enough, and too much, and do nothing while complaining that nothing is being done.

You really believe it will reduce the error rate? What incentive do the states have to improve that? It's not like they're going to eat a felony (or a huge fine) for f**king up someone's criminal record.

My point is that they are only arguing for commie bullshit improvements to NICS (shit to block more people on mostly meaningless crap) and not improvements for gun owners who have been falsely accused by the system. As usual, with most concessions, we get nothing out of the deal. (Maybe I'd feel
differently if the reciprocity bill had real teeth (like a clause that suspends highway funding to any state that disobeys it, or makes LE entities liable for a felony for violating it) but it doesn't- and will likely cost gun owners thousands or perhaps millions to fully litigate the reciprocity issues in commie states.. and that assumes that we will be at least successful enough to make the law useful to most..... )

I also think that if they were really interested in improving NICS it should be 24/7 and it should have a fail open clause present. If NICS is "down" the transaction is recorded but it goes in as a proceed by default, and leave the feds holding the bag if they f*** up. That would ensure 100% system uptime. No "delays" either. You should be guaranteed a proceed or a deny in 20 minutes or less. Does it really take an examiner that long to type shit into a computer? Not enough examiners? Well they should hire more. We already pay an 8 percent rape tax to the feds on guns and ammo, they can steal a little of that pittman robertson money to pay for NICS or whatever.

Also as far as I know there's no funding in the bill for the whole relief from disabilities thing.... which is even more infuriating.

-Mike
 
Here's how I see any kind of reciprocity working out, even if it passes the Senate....by example: http://dailycaller.com/2017/12/07/m...-prison-for-a-long-time-if-they-enter-jersey/

....and don't expect a Sessions-led DoJ to appoint an attorney for you to fight the charges. So JPK, et al you can beat your chest and talk about what .gov can and cannot do, but they will squash individuals and bludgeon you with their legal teams until you you are financially bled dry and maybe get to take a plea deal and only end up a PP for life.
 
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