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Para Problems (Updated & continuing)

The Goose

The Goose

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So on Friday I purchased a new Para Ordnance SSP 19911 full size. On Saturday I took it to the range and put 125 rds through it. It functioned flawlessly. It was really a great gun to shoot. It pointed very naturally, great trigger and neddless to say, way more accurate then me. When I got back home I field stripped it to clean it only to discover that the slide stop pin that goes through the barrel link was sheared in half. There was just barely enough to hold the barrel link in place. I have to think that this was not a particularly good thing.

This morning I called Para and of course they are sending me out a new part. I have dealt with Para before and there customer service seems pretty good. Still, the whole experience is just kind of annoying. This is my third Para pistol and my third experience with a defective part within a day or two of purchase. I guess I am a glutton for punishment.

There is something just not equitable about the whole situation. I pay a LOT of money for a new pistol. There is a broken part. I get to wait for a new part. When the part finally arrives I now have what I paid for in the first place, a gun that shoots. No apology. No expidited shipping. No little gift to pretend that they care. No mention of the serious safety concern. It just does not sit right and the fact that they are 0 for 3 does not help matters.

The service representative said; " We will get this out to you as soon as possible. It will go out regular shipping. If not today then hopefully tommorrow". Oh well, I guess I get to vote with my feet.
 
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Well... you have to spend a lot more then a thousand dollars to be sure that the 1911 you are buying is reliable and that the parts are made by vendors that do not produce a large number of defective parts. I have had the same experience with new guns. I don't think you can buy a factory gun expect it to work. Most will, but plenty of them will break suddenly and without warning.

My feeling (and it is a feeling, an irrational expression of perception) is that 1911s outside of current production Colts are untrustworthy as a whole. Production guns (3rd gen Smith Autos, Glocks, Sig P series) are a step up as they are designed and manufactured to work, not to sell. 1911s are designed (although not originally) to sell and make boocoo cash for the slob making them.

S&W has paid the value of one pistol in UPS shipping fees and they still have not fixed it.
 
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My question is what are you shooting in these things?

Like I said, I own about 10 or so Paras.. (I guess I really need to count)

And I've only had a problem with One that I think was my issue...or an issue with the gun.

The others...well one was another person that wanted to buy the pistol. Broke the guide rod. Not sure how that happened...

Second, I had a squib... Tore the gun apart to get the lead out... It was hot, I was oily... My recoil spring plug went down range... And, as it looked like any other steel case...I never found it..

So, I called Para, told them what happened and they sent it free of charge.


I don't know why, but it amazes me when people tell me of these issues...

Not saying anything to you Goose...just saying that I guess I'm lucky. Or Shoot whimpy reload ammo.



ETA: I don't have any of the new Para's. All my Para's are older P models...
 
C-pher said:
My question is what are you shooting in these things?

I don't know why, but it amazes me when people tell me of these issues...

Not saying anything to you Goose...just saying that I guess I'm lucky. Or Shoot whimpy reload ammo.
Click to expand...

I am shooting all regular stuff. Federal, Winchester, S&B and mostly hardball. No +p stuff or hot loads.

Ya know, I don't know why either. I think that Para's are probably as good or better as anything out there commercially. I guess I have just had bad luck. What else can I say? It is just frustrating and annoying is all.

I also think that when a repeat customer has 3 legitimate complaints in less then one year that the customer deserves a little extra attention. When a customer complains to a company, any company, they are still a customer. When that customer gives up and walks away they are probably gone forever. I would still buy another Para in the future, but I would like to get stroked a little.
 
C-Pher, if you own 10 paras, how many have gone 5k rounds fired? That is the reason most factory guns are perceived as adequate. I expect mine to go 100k with nothing but spring replacement. The 1911 can easily handle that if the gun is running correctly (not reliably, correctly). If the lockup is incorrect or the forging and milling is flawed you get sheared lugs, excessive headspace, cracked frames, broken and or stretched links/link pins/slidestops/slidestop holes, broken extractors claws or extractors that lose tension, within 30k rounds.
 
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Here's seven of them. I had two in Consignment at the time and one I forgot in the back of the safe, a P-10 LDA[smile]

Para002Sm.jpg


Yea, can't say that I've had 5K rounds go down range with many of them. Only because the P-10s are ones that I shoot a lot because it just plain hurts.

I'd say that most have had at least 5K rounds fired down range through them. Thinking that most of these I've had over 5 or 6 years... Really, I haven't bought a new Para in over two years.

Hell, I've reloaded over 10K rounds of .45 in the past year... and most of them have been through my Para's. So I would have to say over the years, most of them have had over 5K run through. Just not at one shot... I only seem to send down range about 500 rounds at a time or so. And I only take one or two with me when I go. Mostly because I don't want to have to clean up a lot of guns when I get home.

I think that the only gun I own that I think that's even coming near 100K rounds would be my Winchester M190. But that's because I've been shooting that since I was 6.. I've never replaced a part in that thing ever.


But you do make a good point. I guess the question is why has his had problems at the start before he's even reached 200 rounds.


Goose, did you tell them that this was your third problem? Sometimes just letting them know makes a difference. They are a big company... Hell, I support about 2000 or so users in my five sites. And when someone calls, they talk to me like I'm supposed to know them. Granted, most of them here in the Hingham office I know...but when someone calls me from my CA office...I don't always know who they are. And unless I have a reason to look the user up to see if it's a repeating issue, I don't. So unless they tell me that it's been a problem, I don't know it.
 
C-pher said:
Goose, did you tell them that this was your third problem? Sometimes just letting them know makes a difference. They are a big company... Hell, I support about 2000 or so users in my five sites. And when someone calls, they talk to me like I'm supposed to know them. Granted, most of them here in the Hingham office I know...but when someone calls me from my CA office...I don't always know who they are. And unless I have a reason to look the user up to see if it's a repeating issue, I don't. So unless they tell me that it's been a problem, I don't know it.
Click to expand...

C-pher, I emailed customer service on Sunday with the complete story. On Monday I called and repeated it to a live person. Again, he was very nice, but I think his ability to react is probably limited. He took my info and said he would mail the part out. I expect it will arrive on Thursday or Friday. Certainly efficient, polite and cooperative. I also emailed and wrote a letter to the president of the company, Ted Szabo, but have not heard back yet. I want to be fair. All of my contact with Para has been very polite on my part. Frankly, at this point it doesn't matter much to me what they do. I know I will get my new part, that is not an issue. A call or letter at least acknowledging my legitimate frustration and with some sense of apology will keep me as a customer. Failure to follow up and I just move on. Good customer service is not simply replacing broken parts. I am not asking for anything more then to be validated.

I run a business. Right now I have in excess of 5,000 clients in my database. If any one of my clients, especially repeat customers, called with a complaint the people I have working for me would have that person's info on the screen, probably before they could finish voicing their complaint. A repeat customer with 3 complaints would get a call from myself or my partner that day. That is the way I run my business and I expect the same in return. Para is a larger company I am sure, but in this day and age managing your client list just is not that hard. I fully expect that I will hear from someone, but the ball is in their court at this point.
 
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I have to tell you, I've had 2 Paras (both OPS), and have never had any problems with mine. I have firsthand put over 2k rounds through one that i got at AFS new, and it never had problems. Hell, I think the second Para I owned was your OPS (got it from Wayne), never had problems with that either. I think the Paras get a bad rap when in fact I think they are pretty well made. No one ever says bad things about Colt, so I'm going to. Had a Colt Defender, and while the pistol didn't "break" I found it unusable by design. Due to the small weight and short barrel, double taps were impossible with muzzle flip. In fact the muzzle flip was so bad that it would auto engage the slide stop every shot for me. The only way I could get it to stop that would be to put my thumb on the thumb safety while shooting, getting a high grip. While I know this is the "right" way to shoot the 1911, the flip of the Defender was so bad it would kill my wrist in about 20 shots. My Para of similar size was much better, and I can shoot it without a high thumb hold... To me it seems that the Colt wasn't designed for someone who didn't have super strong wrists or something... I'm not a weakling, but I'm not a big guy either, I think they really didn't think. My gf took one shot with that thing and it almost jumped out of her hands, she never touched it again. I think every brand makes bad pistols, and you've had bad luck in finding them. Almost every S&W 1911 I've seen in person at the range has been sent back to the factory to have something tweaked or fixed to make it workable, I am deathly scared of buying one based on what I've seen. But meanwhile other people love theirs and have no problems at all...

It sucks that you have had terrible luck with the Paras, but it is nice to see that you give them a second chance at least... And a 3rd chance... But every company makes mistakes. I'm not saying Para is perfect by a long shot (I think the Para Warthog is almost as bad as Colt Defender in terms of design, plus the one I shot jammed every few rounds like crazy). Just pray you get a good one and then never let go! Thats why my original OPS is in the safe and will never get sold.
 
I completely understand. And that sounds like a great database. We have a home grown system and it doesn't show up past history. I moved over to this account from the GM account. And there I had a history of what the user had called about prior to this call. But here, it's not the case. I've asked our folks add that into the system, but they have yet to do it... I'm sure that it's not going to happen.

Then, I'm on a federal account, so it's not like anyone really cares. Really, what are they going to do? We're in a contract no matter what... It drives me nuts sometime. But I work within the system that I have...


I agree, you should get a call. On the problems that I had, someone got back to me within a day. They were great, and talked with me and did everything they could to make sure I was happy. When I got my P-12 back, it had an extra magazine in the box. Again, this was also about 3 or 4 years ago. So I can't tell you how Para's support has changed.

I'm just sorry that they aren't doing the same thing to me. Hell, it's one of the reasons that I've bought so many. They seems to shoot dead nuts, and the support was unsurpassed.
 
Exactly. Although, I think you can go to 3", but I sure wouldn't make the damn frame out of lightweight aluminum. If it were heavy steel at least the pistol frame would soak up some of the recoil... Lightweight Defender is made for people with beefy hands... I bet the design would be good in 9mm, like the Springfield EMP.
 
Complete tangent, but...
It's not the recoil that is the problem for most people. The recoil is really the same either way it is just delivered to you faster and glocks have proved that speed of delivery is not an issue. Your issue was ergonomic, the energy was being delivered to too small of a surface area or the wrong surface area of your hand. That is the kiss of death for perceived recoil and muzzle flip. At some point weight becomes an issue, take the .44 Mag scandium frame revolvers, but a glock 20 is 23oz. or so and people use it for the hottest loads without trouble.

As to the slidestop issue, I would tend to think that is due to another set of issues and not weight. Dimensional problems in the frame or the slidestop can allow it to contact the cartridges in the magazine and cause the slidestop to activate prematurely. A badly speced magazine can also cause this by presenting the cartridges in the wrong spot. Another source of the problem can come from a weak plunger tube spring, or misshapen or crushed plunger tube. It's always possible that the weight really is an issue, the slidestop and plunger tube design was originally created to hold the slidestop down in a 38oz gun.
 
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Goose- Breaking slide stop pin is not easy. They are typically not MIM parts. You may have a bigger problem. I would suggest sending in the Para for them to troubleshoot. If not shoot maybe 20 rounds and inspect the STP for impact damage. Greg
 
I would go with Greg Derr suggestion. There may be timing issue. Or just send your gun to Greg and get the problem taken care of the first time
 
So yesterday I received my new slide stop from Para. The first thing I noticed was that it was black and not stainless like the original. I figured screw it I can live with it and excitedly started to put my SSP together. No go. The slide stop pin would just not go all the way through. So I tried it on just the frame, still no go. I retrieved the broken stop and found that it fit flush. The angle of the new one will just not permit it to go in flush. So I figure it is either the wrong part or it is defective. I have emailed Para with photos and requested a call back today. We'll see what happens.


Para008.jpg


Para007.jpg


Para001.jpg
 
That bent slidestop is WAY out of whack. I can't see how they made it (probably cast, how could it come out of the mold like that?) that bent much less shipped it like that. They need to send another priority overnight pronto.

You can get an EGW slidestop for 20 dollars.
 
I used a Wilson Combat extended slide release on all my Paras. Had to do some fitting, of course, but not a big crisis.
 
As you know, the Smith and Wesson 1911s are MUCH better made and fitted than the Paras. I owned a Para once and was just not happy with the quality of the cast parts. I'll never make that mistake again.
 
FWIW,

I had the misfortune (as some of you already know) of owning the Para Warthog, and let me tell you... Utter piece of crap. I feel like grabbing a State Police bullhorn, driving to Canada to Para's HQ (Why Canada anyways?)
and screaming through it at the top of lungs at the whole building what a colossal pice of dung that gun was/is.

In a nutshell, here's my Para experience:

March 2006: Trundle up to Good 'Ol FS and plunk down my hard-earned cash on a Warthog with a bunch of .45 accoutrement, take it home, strip it down to make sure there's no funny business (casting errors, metal shavings, marmosets trapped in the chamber etc.) and go to bed happy.

March 2006: Take the 'Hog to the range, and gleefully fire it for the first time. Result:


Click click click click (x10), Ka-chink. Stuck slide. No el roundo in el chambero, hombre. "WTF?" Drop mag, clear jam, repeat: Ka-chink. Ok here we go! Bang! Bang! Ka-chunkkk! Stove pipe. "WTF??" Drop mag, clear jam. Repeat. FTF. "Arrrrrrrrgghhhhhhh!!!" Ad infinitum.

Imagine this occuring in one permutation or another over and over and over again with pretty much every common jam possible: FTF, FTE, double feed, etc etc.

Ok..... Maybe it doesn't like this ammo (Federal FMJ 230 grain)

A week or so later, I tried 3 or 4 different types of ammo in the gun (Federal again, UMC, S+B, and CCI Blazer) The Blazer was the only ammo that would evn remotely feed with any chance of consistency (And by that I mean only one to two jams per mag), and JHP was out of the question in any of the brands I tried. Entirely defeating the purpose of this gun as I bought it to carry.

And so it began, after a trip to a very reputable gunsmith, it was determined that the slide stop pin had sheared (much like the OP's) and that it would need to be replaced. He ordered the part and went through the gun top to bottom in the process, including test firing a bunch of ammo before returning it to me.

When I got it back, what do you suppose happened?


Yup, you guessed it:


Click click click, ka-chunk, bang, jam etc etc etc. "Goddammit!!!!! Arrrggghhhh!!! WTF! WTF! etc etc etc"


Now I'm thinkin' "Hmmmmmmm, maybe this little f***er is very sensitive to any type of odd grip or recoil compensating" so I had a few of my friends shoot it. Same result. Then I tried holding the thing in a death grip thinking that I might be limp-wristing it. No dice.

NOW I'm thinkin' "Hmmmmmmm, this thing sucks, but....."

All the while I'm online checking reviews and reports from other hapless souls who bought this utter POS, and the reports are similar almost across the board. But me being the never say die guy that I am...

I call Para, and am promptly underwhelmed with their bedside manor when I explained this whole thing (obviously in a far more brief and concise manner than is written here), and they tell me to send the whole gun to them AT MY EXPENSE!


By this point I'm so frustrated that I pony up the 54.00 to ship the gun to Tennesee or somewhere near there (Which of course is in the USA, more on this later) and am without the gun or any contact from Para for the better part of three weeks. Finally after multiple calls to the service center (Once again in the USA), I'm told that the whole slide has to be replaced and is backordered enroute from Canada!

Meh.


Do I really have a choice at this point? Between the gun, grips, holster and every kind of ammo on the planet, I'm into this debacle for over 900.00, so I stick it out...

I write Para a very concise letter stating that they WILL refund my shipping charges, as this is positively ridiculous. They let me know that they'll send my "request" to the main office, and let me know. I'm getting pissed just thinking about it...

Then I get the phone bill.

74.00 in long distance charges for calling the tech support/repair dept (which as I mentioned before is in the USA), but the calls route through CANADA! And there's no direct line to the service center or an 800 number! WTF????!!!??

I finally get the gun back after another 2-3 weeks, take it to the range, and it still will NOT function consistently. I would say, without any exaggeration, that I might have gotten 4-6 mags through the gun (out of 800-1000 rounds total) without a jam. The only thing it ever fed was the CCI Blazer, and even that was spotty.

End result:

Traded the piece of shit for my Desert Eagle in .44 Magnum, and never looked back. I WILL NEVER BUY ANOTHER PARA EVER AGAIN, AND WILL BE VERY VOCAL IN MAKING SURE THAT OTHERS KNOW OF MY EXPERIENCE.


Whew! I'm done now. Thanks for letting me vent!
 
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Fooped, sorry about all your problems with your para, but the info you posted is very helpful for me and other members to know of problems of some makes and models.
 

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