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Ordinary citizens can't defend themselves with a gun very well.

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http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/07/29/self-defense-study/

Hope this is not a dupe... link above has video of simulation.

If you live in the United States, you have probably have heard the phrase, “The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun.” This bit of nonsense touted by firearms fanatics does not hold up in the real world.
A new study found that ordinary people with varying degrees of experience using guns were not able to protect themselves from being shot or stop a crime from being committed during multiple runs through a training simulator.
The study was a joint effort between the gun safety advocacy group, National Gun Victims Action Council, and researchers at the Mount St. Mary’s University. The study was held over two days and consisted of 77 ordinary people who were forced to make tough decisions about what to do in an extreme situation while armed. They were compared to police officers who have extensive firearms training.
The group released a statement on the study’s findings, saying


“Using the same advanced simulating system that Prince George’s County police officers train with, volunteer participants were placed in three real-life scenarios—a carjacking, an armed robbery and a suspected larceny.
Participants already had their guns drawn so they would not lose time retrieving them from holsters. Shooter’s reactions, including judgment and accuracy, were measured and recorded.
In the carjacking scenario, most if not all gun carriers would have been “killed,” regardless of their training level. In the armed robbery scenario, all the carriers who engaged the robbers got “killed.” (Many did not engage because the robbers did not see them so they didn’t feel threatened.) In the larceny scenario, no one was “killed” because the suspect did not have a gun. However, the unarmed suspect was “killed” by overzealous carriers who used lethal force before ascertaining whether he had a gun.
In all scenarios, civilians, including trained ones, were unable to approach the accuracy and judgment of trained police officers.”
Joe Vince, Director of the Criminal Justice Program at Mount St. Mary’s said:
“For citizens to realistically defend themselves they must have a high skill level. To attain that level requires extensive initial training in the classroom, on the firing range and with real-life scenarios. To maintain such levels, semi-annual skill maintenance training, like what police officers go through, is required.”
This study, along with other research from a recently released study conducted by Harvard University shows that there probably isn’t much a person can do that will be helpful when carrying a gun, unless they have extensive training.
Now, the idea that a person should have training to carry a gun on them probably doesn’t sound too farfetched for most people. I have a hard time believing the notion that a training requirement to carry a gun in public would be controversial to many gun owners. However, many states seem to find the idea absurd. Many states don’t care if minors carry guns in public without any training. To me, people should find that to be not only terrifying, but also a national embarrassment.
 
A 1% chance being armed is better than a 0% chance being completely defenseless. Screw the National Gun Victims Action Council for wanting to create more victims.
 
"To maintain such levels, semi-annual skill maintenance training, like what police officers go through, is required.”

[rofl]

What police officers? Where?

Shows you how much they don't know. At least half the people here have 1000x more firearm training then your average police officer. Who the **** are they trying to kid. [rolleyes]
 
if I'm going to die anyway I'd rather have a fighting chance and possibly take the dirt bag with me....

maybe they should spend more effort on trying to prevent the criminals from having success as opposed to disarming law abiding citizens.
 
Are there any local places that offer training with a simulator like shown in the video. It looks both educational and fun.
 
My question is where the non police participants even gun owners. I don't get it. I don't care what this video shows no one will stand there like a stiff like they do in this video. Armed or unarmed your not going to sit there like that.

How is it the bad guys get a 1 shot kill every time. Where are they training.
 
Such "studies," in addition to the well-known firearms phobia of the authors/sponsors and flaws in methodology, ignore the benefits of widespread public ownership of firearms in deterring attempted crime in the first place.
 
Like how they gloss over the fact the "trained" officer shot at (and missed) the unarmed guy and focus on the fact that the civvies "killed" an unarmed man.
 
Ignoring whether this 'study' was valid or not, they're all missing the point - it's about deterrent, not about hoping some random citizen with a license will stop the next Columbine. Same reason we have nuclear weapons, despite them being all but useless weapons.
 
They always like to use the "if it saves just one life" crap. How come that doesn't apply to this? I imagine that if you extrapolated over the whole population if the US, that at least one civilian would get it right and take out the bad guy.

Would be interesting to see what happens to the cop scores if you add dogs to the sim.
 
My wife told me that her company is teaching people situational awareness and are moving away from the cower in place doctrine. Training like that might get people thinking more about how to defend themselves and more gun ownership.
 
OK. So they used 77 people. The numbers I have found say that roughly 45 MIL adults in the US own a handgun. Which means that 77 people represents 0.00017111111111111% of the HG owning population in the US. So their data doesn't eve cover a full 2 TEN-THOUSANDTHS OF 1% of the demographic. Seems like a worth wile study to base opinions/decisions on. [rolleyes] That's like seeing one fat white guy and coming to the conclusion that all white guys must be fat... Double [rolleyes]
 
There is a big problem with these simulators, they assume the person attacking you knows what he/she is doing.

I guarantee you that some ghetto kid wouldn't know what to do if you pull a gun on them. They would grab their balls, hold their pants up, hold their guns sideways and shoot everywhere.
 
OK. So they used 77 people. The numbers I have found say that roughly 45 MIL adults in the US own a handgun. Which means that 77 people represents 0.00017111111111111% of the HG owning population in the US. So their data doesn't eve cover a full 2 TEN-THOUSANDTHS OF 1% of the demographic. Seems like a worth wile study to base opinions/decisions on. [rolleyes] That's like seeing one fat white guy and coming to the conclusion that all white guys must be fat... Double [rolleyes]

Technically, you just need a random sample of 20.
The problem is, how is that sample chosen.
 
Now, the idea that a person should have training to carry a gun on them probably doesn’t sound too farfetched for most people. I have a hard time believing the notion that a training requirement to carry a gun in public would be controversial to many gun owners. However, many states seem to find the idea absurd. Many states don’t care if minors carry guns in public without any training. To me, people should find that to be not only terrifying, but also a national embarrassment.q
i totally agree with this conclusion .
and the remedy is have live firearm training classes added to all high school curriculum
as mandatory for graduation.

rolled right in with driver Ed.
 
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You cannot recreate a violent situation in a stimulator. I don't care how realistic you make it, one cannot base a reaction on the results. I have been in many violent situations at my job(including taking down a patient that was trying to stab me and my coworkers with a pen and various other weapons) and people either react appropriately, or freeze and do nothing at all. Also, when under stress you revert to your level of training. I don't think gun owners should have mandatory training, that would be a constitutional violation, but I would encourage people to get training voluntarily.

Sent from my C6522N using Tapatalk
 
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i totally agree with this conclusion .
and the remedy is have live firearm training classes added to all high school curriculum
as mandatory for graduation.

rolled right in with driver Ed.

Mandatory basic training as part of graduating high school was proposed by Ike and unfortunately never enacted. If everyone physically and mentally capable had to go through JROTC the population would have a greater respect and understanding of the military, fitness, navigation, unarmed self defense, first aid, firearm safety & marksmanship, survival skills, leadership & teamwork, crisis management, etc.
 
I can definitely come up with scenarios in which the other guy has no chance. Maybe I should do a study! Wonder how many of their study participants were drug-impaired, for example?

"If you are in a fair fight - your tactics suck."
U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, etc.
 
by the same argument....

only MD's should be allowed to possess medications

only firefighters should be allowed to work a fire extinguisher

only accountants should be allowed to handle a calculator

only tailors should be allowed to operate a sewing machine

FAIL
 
I stopped reading when I saw "National Gun Victims Action Council". These folks, one guy actually, are certifiably bat-shit crazy. I usually get on the anti mailing lists and twitter feeds, but these guys were just too far out in outer space.
 
Ive used one of those at the Newport RI PD. There is someone behind you that controls the simulation depending on how you act/react. (i.e. if the officer doesnt yell "XYZ PD, Drop the Gun!" loud enough, or with enough authority, they start shooting, vs dropping the gun if you do it correctly.) I honestly think they could make the results show what ever they want depending on the agenda of the person running the simulator.


On the up side, if you get a CCW badge you will be imbued with the decision making abilities of a real officer[smile]
 
My favorite "proof" was the video where they give one student in a college classroom a gun, and an unannounced BG bursts into the room and immediately targets the guy with the ccw out of like 25-40 people... Shot him "dead" immediately, proving that carrying will not save your life.

[rolleyes]
 
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