OK, so who actually LIKES 40 S&W?

From the S&W forum:

"When S&W took the 10mm, which at that time no one except a few enthusiasts really cared much about, and made a pretty useful little round that improved on the 9mm and dispensed with the unnecessary aspects (for LE purposes) of the 10mm, they had a good and very logical idea - but they stepped squarely on the toes of the 9mm and .45 crowds, both of which have some pretty vehement advocates. To a .45 man, there is just no point in talking about anything else, and to a 9mm man, their gun is "just as good as a .45".
 
My name is Sibb and I have an M&P 40 and a Sig 239 in 40. I like them because I can hit what I'm aiming at and my wife can use them to, she is strong like bull.
 
jasons said:
Yeah, and it made sense to do so. Why use a giant case (and thus a giant framed gun) when something smaller will provide the velocity that you need?

.308 was designed to provide the same ballistic performance as .30-06 in a much smaller case that fits short action rifles. You don't hear people calling .308 a pussy round. (Nobody who knows what they're talking about anyway.) It's the same thing....

Like I said, the guys that hate on the development of the .40 don't realize that they joke is on them.
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Not quite the same thing. The .308 matches the ballistics of the .30-06 military rounds - same 150gn bullet at same velocity, even if it can't match velocities with heavier 180-220gn bullets.

The .40 S&W and 9mm based .224BOZ don't match ballistics with their 10mm based counter parts, rather they provide "acceptible" ballistics from the smaller case, but hardly the same. The 9mm based .224 BOZ is getting 1500fps from a handgun and 2200fps from a submachine gun's 11" barrel, both are significant losses from the 1800fps / 2500fps ballistics when the 10mm round was used. The .40 S&W matches the FBI LITE loading for the 10mm, but this is about 200fps slower than the earlier developments of the 10mm.

Did you actually get to shoot it? I've never seen one myself but I've heard that major modifications to the slide and breechface were needed to get the thing to actually work, and even then they would only last a few hundred rounds before something broke.
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Yes, I did get to shoot it, but it was already modified. I don't know about the breech face, but the slide was significantly lightened to allow the lower impulse of the 55gn bullet to drive it back and work the action. The feed ramp was also different to guide the sharp shoulder of the round into the chamber, but that was part of the barrel. I don't know about lifespan, as we didn't put more than a couple hundred rounds through it in total. I wouldn't be surprised that the lighter slide's higher velocity increased wear and tear on the internal parts.

But it still comes down to: We tested the bullets at X range and Y body armor and found all we needed was 2200fps and we can achieve 2200fps with a 9x19mm based case crammed full of the best powder currently available.
What happens when range becomes X+ or bodyarmor improves? Or, as has been an issue with the .40 S&W, repeated reloading sets the bullet back into the case slightly and it results in chamber over-pressure because of a lack of safety margin in case capacity?

I guess it's really all moot because CDS doesn't supply to the civilian market and is unlikely to license a civilian supplier because of their owners personal feelings on civilian ownership of firearms.
 
Jeff1000 said:
From the S&W forum:

"When S&W took the 10mm, which at that time no one except a few enthusiasts really cared much about, and made a pretty useful little round that improved on the 9mm and dispensed with the unnecessary aspects (for LE purposes) of the 10mm, they had a good and very logical idea - but they stepped squarely on the toes of the 9mm and .45 crowds, both of which have some pretty vehement advocates. To a .45 man, there is just no point in talking about anything else, and to a 9mm man, their gun is "just as good as a .45".
Click to expand...

That's marketing BS. When S&W and NORMA developed the .40 S&W, the FBI was still specifying the 10mm for their next generation issue firearm. It was hardly an obscure caliber that "no one else cared about" - it was THE round everyone was developing. S&W had just missed the boat because they couldn't retool their manufacturing fast enough to offer the FBI a workable 10mm handgun for their trials.
S&W managed to sieze on a change in the specs for the 10mm loading to "get back into the race" with the FBI testing, because they could offer a caliber change that fit in their shorter action.
 
scubadive.ri said:
Get ready for whining, bitching and ranting. I might as well start it. I like 40 S&W and I like to shoot it with my Sigma! How's that? ;)
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What matters most is not whether you like shooting it. What matters is how you shoot it. If your shot to shot recovery time is 2x what it would be with a 9mm, then its not a good defensive caliber for you.

In the right gun, it lives up to its excellent theoretical advantages: more power than a 9mm with much greater round capacity than a .45 in a given sized gun.

The problem is that people want, and the gun companies produce small .40s that people don't shoot well.

To the OP. I'd invite you to video yourself shooting your G27. You say its your first gun. I will bet you $500 that you can't shoot it quickly and accurately.
Go buy yourself a lone wolf 9mm bbl and then learn how to shoot it.

I got a chance to compare a G26 and a G27. At the time I was classified sharpshooter in IDPA, a middle level classification. I shot the 26 so much better than I did the 27, the choice was obvious.

I'm not saying that the 27 frightened me or intimidated me. It did not. (Unlike the time I shot a 440 grain bullet at 1600 fps out of a 4" S&W 500 magnum. wow. I had a cylinder full of them, but opened the crane and gave the gun back to its owner after the first shot.)

I just didn't shoot it all that well.

So again to the OP. Lets see some video.
 
ShadeWPI said:
But it still comes down to: We tested the bullets at X range and Y body armor and found all we needed was 2200fps and we can achieve 2200fps with a 9x19mm based case crammed full of the best powder currently available.
What happens when range becomes X+ or bodyarmor improves?
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Dude, come on. Engineers design to a spec. If some nerd somewhere decides that X bullet going Y FPS is what they need then that's what an engineer is going to design for. If the conditions change, the spec changes, and then engineers go back to the drawing board. If "what if" ruled the day, we'd never get anywhere.



ShadeWPI said:
Or, as has been an issue with the .40 S&W, repeated reloading sets the bullet back into the case slightly and it results in chamber over-pressure because of a lack of safety margin in case capacity?
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Setback? Please. Load a 9mm up to .40 ballistics and you'll be in +P+ territory, probably with a compressed charge. You don't think setback would be a problem there too? Setback issues can happen with all calibers, but isn't an issue for people with more than two functioning brain cells.
 
No practical handgun caliber is totally reliable. The whole saga of the FBI's quest for a new pistol and caliber as a result of the Great Miami Shootout has become intertwined with myth and the saga of the 10mm Model 1076 S&W semi-auto was full of political ramifications. Jeff Cooper at least as far back as far as the 70's advocated some kind of a 40 caliber pistol. Guns and Ammo Magazine actually created the 40G&A round and it approximated the 40S&W, they used a Browning Hi-Power platform. Then there was the .41 Action Express (41AE) which was marketed in some Tanfoglio CZ clones and maybe a few other makers as well. The Sig P229 was the first platform expressly designed for the 40S&W as other designs such as the S&W M 4006 was a beefed up 5906. The old 38-40 WCF round which was chambered for both Winchester rifles and the Colt SAA ballistically duplicated the modern 40 S&W round so the concept has been around for a very long time. Essentially, the 40 was developed so that a 40 caliber handgun would fit in 9mm sized frame. Originally called the 40 "Short and Weak" by its detractors, it has proven to be a reliable police cartridge in various loads and configurations. I know that there are those who are loathe to reload the round, but it was designed expressly to be a police service cartridge, not necessarily geared to the civilian market or for hand loaders.

The best handgun round hands down for personal defense: 125 grain .357 Mag Jacketed hollowpoint, but oh wait...they come in revolvers !!

As I get older, I tend to gravitate more to the .45 ACP round, although at one time I was a 9mm guy all the way.

Whatever the choice, today's common handgun personal defense loads (38 Spl +P, 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP) are light years ahead of the old traditional police load of a .38 spl load of 158gr lead round nose bullet exiting a four inch barrel at approx 800-850 fps.

There are a lot worse choices than the .40.
 
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jasons said:
Load a 9mm up to .40 ballistics and you'll be in +P+ territory, probably with a compressed charge. You don't think setback would be a problem there too?
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I do this and found it more likely that I'd have the opposite problem from setback.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
I like 40 S&W since -

- Brass is cheap. In fact, a LE friend gives me a couple of 5 gallon buckets every year. Even if I had to buy brass, I could leave it on the ground and it would only cost a bit more the primer in the round.

- Easy to reload

- Decent performance (USPSA major) when loaded "long" (1.18 - 1.20") for SVI/STI/Para 1911oid guns. (I use SVI).

- Can standardize on small rifle primers and use the same primer with 38 super, 9mm, 40, 357sig (if I had one, which I don't) and even 38/357.

- Did I mention cheap brass?
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I don't disagree with anything you said, but . .
I'm guessing you don't shoot factory ammo.
I'm also guessing you don't shoot it out of a 15 oz Nano

One of the best shooting guns I've ever shot was a .40 cal Brazos semi-custom limited gun with handloaded ammo that barely made major.
Very flat, very soft. Nice quick slide speed.

In contrast, a (pre-gen 4) Glock 23 with full boat defensive loads is difficult to shoot fast and accurate.
Most would be better served with by a 19.
 
EddieCoyle said:
I do this and found it more likely that I'd have the opposite problem from setback.
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Yeah, that actually makes sense now that I think about it. [grin]

Still, setback is a non-issue with proper training.
 
dcmdon said:
In contrast, a (pre-gen 4) Glock 23 with full boat defensive loads is difficult to shoot fast and accurate.
Most would be better served with by a 19.
Click to expand...

That's not because the .40 is "short and wimpy," but rather because it's too powerful for the average shooter to manage well.
 
ShadeWPI said:
That's marketing BS. When S&W and NORMA developed the .40 S&W, the FBI was still specifying the 10mm for their next generation issue firearm. It was hardly an obscure caliber that "no one else cared about" - it was THE round everyone was developing. S&W had just missed the boat because they couldn't retool their manufacturing fast enough to offer the FBI a workable 10mm handgun for their trials.
S&W managed to sieze on a change in the specs for the 10mm loading to "get back into the race" with the FBI testing, because they could offer a caliber change that fit in their shorter action.
Click to expand...

What about this:

"Why all the .40 S&W bashing? Perhaps it's because it wasn't developed by the U.S. Army, John Browning, Herr Luger, one of the assorted Russians, Elmer, Askins, Skeeter, etc. Perhaps it's because S&W looked at what the FBI didn't like about the 10mm, thought hard about what was good about the 9mm and then did something called "product development" with the happy result that policemen and citizens of all walks of life now have a wonderful round that pushes 180 gr. JHP's out the barrel of nice mid-sized semi-autos that can run all the way from duty size right down to sub-compact size. What's not to like? Oh... I know... it's not big enough... or fast enough... or new enough. Oh well. You can't please everybody. From the field most reports are that those who get hit by it would rather have not have gotten in the way of where that .40 caliber slug was going!"
 
dcmdon said:
I don't disagree with anything you said, but . .
I'm guessing you don't shoot factory ammo.


In contrast, a (pre-gen 4) Glock 23 with full boat defensive loads is difficult to shoot fast and accurate.
Most would be better served with by a 19.
Click to expand...

Yep. The G23 was very snappy and I wasn't limpwristing or being a wimp. The muzzle flip doesn't allow me to quickly get shots on target. Oh well, the 9 suits me better. And with some Buffalo Bore +P+ 115gr loads, both my CCW's will have 500 ft lbs of muzzle energy. Maybe you need to read some ballistic charts. [wink]

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=118



Sent from my carbon covered iPhone
 
jasons said:
That's not because the .40 is "short and wimpy," but rather because it's too powerful for the average shooter to manage well.
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I don't even know if its actually the power.
Its a higher pressure cartridge than either the 9 or the .45.
The .45 is more powerful and I find I can shoot a .45 better even out of the same gun.

Like I said above, I own a Kahr P9. At the Blue Trails sportsman's show I was able to shoot the similarly sized P40 and P45. I shot the P45 better than i shot the P40. Although I didn't shoot either well.

One other observation. I felt like the 10mm G29 had less snap than a .40 Cal G23. I don't know why. The impressions were not side by side, but separated by a year or so. What I do know is the .40 surprised me with its snap and the 10mm surprised me by having less recoil than I anticipated.

Maybe thats the problem. Expectations.

Another thought has also crossed my mind. Maybe its truly the guns. I recently took in trade a Gen 4 Glock 22. While the recoil was greater than a 9mm, it was MUCH less than previous G22s and G23s I've shot. Maybe its the double recoil spring in the Gen 4s. Maybe since the 29 has always had the double spring, it helped to tame the 10mm. I don't really know. I'm just floating ideas.

One other surprise to me was the full sized HK USP40. I also took this gun in trade last year. Its a big gun with a heavy slide. Again, I was surprised at how much it recoiled. It was not a pleasant gun to shoot. A friend gave me some of his fun to shoot .40 reloads to try in the gun and it wouldn't run reliably.

One big surprise to me was the $150 Hi-Point .40. I took this in trade also. Wow, what a crappy looking gun, but it DOES shoot. Recoil was tame. I shot this gun side by side with the USP40 and I consistently shot the Hi-Point better. Of course the Hi-Point weighs about 2x what the USP weighs, so maybe this is to be expected.

Some observations. I don't consider myself to be recoil sensitive. I can shoot defensive .45 loads quickly and accurately out of both my 1911 and my M&P 45 and I don't find the Buffalo Bore .44 Mag hunting loads to be intimidating out of my 6" 29.

Some absolute truths I know to be true are:
1) I don't shoot most .40s well with factory ammo.
2) My students are universally more intimidated by a glock shooting .40 than they are shooting .45 out of my Les Baer 1911.

Even with all that, I'm still intrigued by the PROMISE of he .40. Its seductive. Near .45ACP stopping power in a 9mm sized gun with 9mm capacity. I think the Gen 4 Glock 22 comes closest to delivering on that promise in reasonably priced, concealable guns.
 
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10mm-1.jpg


That being said, ammo is twice the price of 9mm and insanely difficult to get locally, so I'm waiting for a press before I pick up the g20sf.
 
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I love .40, my first semi auto was a .40 and I've always enjoyed the caliber. My EDC is a .40 PPS and I also have a G23, looking for a 4006 when we get settled in NH next month.

Posted from my busted old G2 on T-mobile's sorry network.
 
Excellent round for certain competition and you can get 20+1 with the right pistol / mag. I have shot quite a few rounds over the years and I like it.
 
Yup, commercial 10mm ammo is twice the price of 9mm. What do you expect? It's twice the fun and comes with the superior ballistics pictured above.

The best handgun round hands down for personal defense: 125 grain .357 Mag Jacketed hollowpoint, but oh wait...they come in revolvers !!
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There are some semi's, like the LAR Grizzly and Coonan, which are a hoot to shoot in 357. The Griz is super accurate with the 6" 357 conversion barrel and the muzzle flip is nothing.
 
I like my G22 with all the conversions, long slide and mag extensions I added over the years. I also like my G20. I have 20 rd mags for both. I use them primarily for testing ammo....for velocities that get recorded on the label. The G22 with a Lone Wolf long slide works really well in making major...just needed to put a brass slug in the grip space to help balance the pistol out. Now I need to make time for some matches/shoots. So yeah, I like 40SW, but I like everything that I load for.
 
ShadeWPI said:
I have to disagree that the 5.7x28 was/is useless. It works very well for what it was designed for when combined with the tools it was designed to work with. It wasn't designed for the civilian market, and the tools it was designed around are not available to civilian shooters.

It offers the size and capacity of 9mm style automatic sub-machine guns with the short-range soft-armor defeating capabilities of a 5.56. Sure, it's not effective for the civilliam market who has access to neither the fully automatic, short barrelled P90 nor the semi-armor piercing military rounds it was developed with, but that doesn't make it pointless.

The 5.7x28 was developed to address the evolving threat posed by increased availability of soft body armor in the terrorist markets abroad. It was developed in combination with the P90 personal defense weapon and Five seveN sidearm to provide government agents with a high volume of fire capable of penetrating the soft-body armor that was emerging with terrorists in their regions.

The British went through a similar development with the .224 BONZ, though their larger case size provides higher velocity, but reduced ammunition capacity. At least their solution can utilize a barrel change from a standard Glock and MP5 platforms.
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It's still a pointless, over hyped cartridge. Why should I care about it if it only works good in a gun and bullet combination I can never buy? Sure it's fun at the range, but beyond that.. meh.

-Mike
 

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